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@Alexander Thaut

I mostly read none of those DC events, funny because I did read most of 00's events in Marvel, including tie ins (funnily enough, I never did read the full civil war one, it was 116 issues in total IIRC)

I believe I only did read the original crisis, identity crisis, Flashpoint, Convergence and Multiverse.

Even when I still read capeshit, I hated marvel events because it was some shit story bogging down my other stories (superboy from new52 suffered because not only the event crossovers from Superman line, but also the teen titans ones fucked the whole title.

It is still my favorite costume for Superboy.
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I wish it was good fun like the Supergirl n52 run, but this was fucked by crossover and editorial bullshit (in this title you even ser the original John Kent from the future)


@Humble Architect

I liked the lore to the new 52 Erradicator, damn I loved new 52 krypton lore until the rape that it was the jurgens blue and red bullshit fusion.

It is incredible how DC makes the dumbest decisions to justify one Superman instead of just using the post crisis one instead of fusioning them in a retarded story.

I dropped superman after that and never came back.
 
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I admit i liked the arc after IC where Diana goes undercover and Circe pretends to be her. Then it leads to Gail's run on WW which is really fun. The Hollywood issue is hilarious.

I still can't get over Identity Crisis though. FOOTPRINTS ON THE BRAIN*.....also they had Zatanna weirdly flip flop on if the team did the right thing.

* = ewwwwughh the thought of it makes me sick to my stomach god why

Do you remember there was this villainess.....she was like an evil priestess that the JL fought. It was in the early 00s. She had a big role in one arc. I want to say she was Aquaman adjacent?
 
I admit i liked the arc after IC where Diana goes undercover and Circe pretends to be her. Then it leads to Gail's run on WW which is really fun. The Hollywood issue is hilarious.

I still can't get over Identity Crisis though. FOOTPRINTS ON THE BRAIN*.....also they had Zatanna weirdly flip flop on if the team did the right thing.

* = ewwwwughh the thought of it makes me sick to my stomach god why

Do you remember there was this villainess.....she was like an evil priestess that the JL fought. It was in the early 00s. She had a big role in one arc. I want to say she was Aquaman adjacent?
>footprints in the brain
>Mister Miracle somehow didn't catch anything with the divine motherbox. I can buy maybe having Superman not being able to use his vision, I can buy that maybe the tech on earth or GL rings not catching it.

But Mister Miracle not catching it? Nah.

Gamemnae? The main villainess from the Rock of Ages arc where Aquaman came back?
 
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Gamemnae. Yup. Her. Pretty but then the body horror was horrifying. Manitou Raven was a bamf. Idk what became of him.
 
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Gamemnae. Yup. Her. Pretty but then the body horror was horrifying. Manitou Raven was a bamf. Idk what became of him.
Raven dies in the Justice League Elite spinoff and his wife kinda takes over the role, but then kinda disappears after Infinite Crisis. I feel like the Manitou couple were specifically the JL Elite writer's pet characters.

Manitou Dawn makes an appearance in the Wondy JL Dark series and I don't think she's appeared since then.
 
I have not read ID crisis but isn’t a major fault with the story, that as a murder mystery story, it is basically impossible to forsee who did the deed?
That there is basically no hints whatsoever?
 
I have not read ID crisis but isn’t a major fault with the story, that as a murder mystery story, it is basically impossible to forsee who did the deed?
That there is basically no hints whatsoever?
Yeah basically the SA of a character in a flashback and the subsequent events have literally nothing to do with the actual case. It is like a maguffin that has rotted out from the inside. The murderer isn't involved in the thing that most people think of when they think of this storyline.
 
I have not read ID crisis but isn’t a major fault with the story, that as a murder mystery story, it is basically impossible to forsee who did the deed?
That there is basically no hints whatsoever?
yep, Sue Dibny's rape is used as a background bit to explain a red herring.
 
Ah neron, haven't heard that name in a while. I dug him, he was a pretty good villain from what I remember. Essentially D.Cs equivalent of the devil or marvels dormammu.

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To talk about knightfall for a bit, I really REALLY loved following Jean-Paul Valley's arc as batman for a lot of reasons.

One he looks like the biggest badass in the room at all times. with some of the most gorgeous art possible.

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Two he's brutal as shit and makes batman look like a kitten with the amount of maiming he does

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Three he really does have a wonderful arc to him. A lot of thought was put into how he acts in comparison to bruce and the evolution he undergoes as batman. I love how he starts out just wearing batman's outfit, then adds his personal gauntlets before geting his ass kicked by bane. Then he uses Bruce's resources to build some power armor and become a walking tank. From then on he fully devotes himself to the job. There's no secret identity , Paul IS BATMAN, and the very few times he's out of costume you get the sense he's vulnerable and not comfortable in his own shoes. He's also an understated catholic crusader which is great.

The problem is because he's batman 24/7 there's no filter. He sees the worst of humanity on a daily basis and gives everything back ten fold. It's a constant battle for him to not kill anyone and give into his instincts, but to his credit he manages to (mostly) keep it under control even at his worst. The tipping point is him letting a bad guy die batman begins style, which wouldn't be the end of the world except he needed his info to save a hostage.

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There's no subtilty to him, no finesse but he doesn't really need it. He's all about beating everyone's ass. Pauls not a detective, if the bat computer cant figure it out, he's going to go out there and bust heads until someone starts talking. Paul constantly evolves in his combat techniques and upgrades his efficiency. making use of the underground subway tracks using neglected bat tech to cover a lot of ground. When he fights a superpowered villain and gets his armor melted off he goes full gundam and builds an even bigger and more badass suit. He's not perfect, he can get blindsided but you really do get the sense he doesn't make the same mistake twice when it comes to refining his skills.

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One of the best parts of the story is seeing everyone react to him. Because Everybody who isnt part of the bat family think's he's bruce at first. It's really fun to see who figures it out and who doesn't and even more interesting to see the horrified reactions to his brutality.

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Joker of course he eventually figures it out, but even he is fooled at first. Catwoman immediately realizes it because he cant handle her sexy charms, but most of the villains think it's really him and are scared shitless at his change in attitude.

The other great part is seeing him start to become more and more of an asshole to his allies and push everyone away. He really has it in for Robin and constantly gives him shit. I think part of it is the subconscious programing he had as religious warrior and part of it is a desire to be better then batman. One of the bloodline guys shows up to become his sidekick and despite being nothing but helpful, Paul tells him to fuck off. By the end of the series he's pushed everyone away and pissed off the police.

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The hell of is he really is better then bruce when it comes to fighting and terror. Dude brought crime down at least 40 or 60% by the end of his run and bruce could not take him in a direct fight in the armor. He was that good, but the increasing insanity was a hair's breath from turning him into the punisher.



speaking of

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Yeah the standalone crossovers were pretty badass. He's got an issue where he teams up with the 4 superman while hiding the fact he's not the original batman, and an issue where he meets resurrected superman that was fun.

Paul is a very interesting character, they kinda shafted him for a while before giving him an impressive 100 issue run of his own before he got killed off. I Really need to read it and his post 52 apprences when they bring him back. Dude joins the justice league and fights darkside, that's a pretty great glow up.


I count myself as a fan of Captain Atom and I’d kill for Nathaniel to get some respect, to this day I still stand by his greatest feat being the “big dog” to all of Wildstorm and killing those libshits in the Authority. Seriously, in Captain Atom: Armageddon he kills the queers and their daughter, it’s incredibly based.

“My name is Captain Atom, as in a-bomb…. as in nuclear fission, as in…… the end of the world.”

I like Joker being funny, I hate the “grit” or “edge” takes, I like him being colourful and taking a silly, harmless concept (clown/circus) and being joyfully sinister about it.

Tim Curry Pennywise essentially, colourful, silly, genuinely funny…….. and pure evil.
I remember Captain Atom pretty fondly from how they portrayed him in Justice league Unlimited. Put up a pretty good show against superman.

Joker for me doesnt work as a mass murdering clown. Like sure he kills people that's part of his deal, but he really should be focused on maiming people for life more then simply killing them. The Animated series had to do this because it was a a kids show, but ironically I think it fits a lot better. The joker got a thrill out of messing people up and toed the line in a mocking way that didn't stretch credibility when he escaped the electric chair for the 1000th time.
 
Seeing a mention of "Cry for Justice", one of the worst storylines ever. What was a real kicker for me was that I had finally gotten around to finishing up back issues and such of Robinson's Starman run just before I checked out CfJ and all I could think was that it was a real difference. Robinson's run on Starman had its weak points but holy balls CfJ was just awful. Stilted dialogue, ("But I still have to ask -- are you here now as a hero... or a villain?"), panels that often felt out of sequence, dialogue that seems to float in out of nowhere, and characters that often felt like they were barely there. All of the blustering about crying for justice or seeking justice or whatever reminded me of the Totally Nineties DC title "Extreme Justice" I'd encountered in bargain bins, but much, much weaker.
 
Catwoman immediately realizes it because he cant handle her sexy charms
I recall she's like, to paraphrase, "I can smell the cum inside his balls from a block away, but you're almost sterile".

Joker for me doesnt work as a mass murdering clown. Like sure he kills people that's part of his deal, but he really should be focused on maiming people for life more then simply killing them.
I like that scene from Gaiman's Batman book, which yeah it's not canon and strictly a meta thing, but the bit when Joker asks a guy to look after his car.
Guy: "You're gonna kill me"
Joker: "What? No, I need you to look after my car while I'm inside. Easy 20 bucks."
Guy: "But you're the Joker. You're gonna kill me after."
Joker: "I only kill people when it's funny. What could possibly be funny about killing you?"
 
Ah neron, haven't heard that name in a while. I dug him, he was a pretty good villain from what I remember. Essentially D.Cs equivalent of the devil or marvels dormammu.
he's DC's sorta equivalent to Mephisto, but I don't recall Mephisto being outright faustian on that scale.


One of the best parts of the story is seeing everyone react to him. Because Everybody who isnt part of the bat family think's he's bruce at first. It's really fun to see who figures it out and who doesn't and even more interesting to see the horrified reactions to his brutality.
it's amusing and then everyone wonders where the fuck bruce is.

i recall a JL task force issue with wheelchair bruce. J'onn musta been scratching his head.
Joker of course he eventually figures it out, but even he is fooled at first. Catwoman immediately realizes it because he cant handle her sexy charms, but most of the villains think it's really him and are scared shitless at his change in attitude.

The other great part is seeing him start to become more and more of an asshole to his allies and push everyone away. He really has it in for Robin and constantly gives him shit. I think part of it is the subconscious programing he had as religious warrior and part of it is a desire to be better then batman. One of the bloodline guys shows up to become his sidekick and despite being nothing but helpful, Paul tells him to fuck off. By the end of the series he's pushed everyone away and pissed off the police.
i think it's funny is that Paul never considered staying in line so he doesn't get whupped by some other hero.
Yeah the standalone crossovers were pretty badass. He's got an issue where he teams up with the 4 superman while hiding the fact he's not the original batman, and an issue where he meets resurrected superman that was fun.

Paul is a very interesting character, they kinda shafted him for a while before giving him an impressive 100 issue run of his own before he got killed off. I Really need to read it and his post 52 apprences when they bring him back. Dude joins the justice league and fights darkside, that's a pretty great glow up.
didn't they kill him in the '00s? I recall his black lantern self showing up in blackest night.
I remember Captain Atom pretty fondly from how they portrayed him in Justice league Unlimited. Put up a pretty good show against superman.
captain atom's either a man out of time or some government superhero. he's kinda like a way more fucked up steve rogers.
Joker for me doesnt work as a mass murdering clown. Like sure he kills people that's part of his deal, but he really should be focused on maiming people for life more then simply killing them. The Animated series had to do this because it was a a kids show, but ironically I think it fits a lot better. The joker got a thrill out of messing people up and toed the line in a mocking way that didn't stretch credibility when he escaped the electric chair for the 1000th time.
joker's differing "personalities" give him different levels of cruelty.
Seeing a mention of "Cry for Justice", one of the worst storylines ever. What was a real kicker for me was that I had finally gotten around to finishing up back issues and such of Robinson's Starman run just before I checked out CfJ and all I could think was that it was a real difference. Robinson's run on Starman had its weak points but holy balls CfJ was just awful. Stilted dialogue, ("But I still have to ask -- are you here now as a hero... or a villain?"), panels that often felt out of sequence, dialogue that seems to float in out of nowhere, and characters that often felt like they were barely there. All of the blustering about crying for justice or seeking justice or whatever reminded me of the Totally Nineties DC title "Extreme Justice" I'd encountered in bargain bins, but much, much weaker.
i feel like he just got forced to do shit by editorial.

I mean, he's associated with golden age shit and seems to be mostly fine with it, but Cry for Justice was just kinda cruel overall. They killed Jay Garrick's goofy sidekicks from the '40s for no reason other than to have Jay garble on about justice.

at least Prometheus had an answer for the shade since he'd learned about not every villain siding with his ideals before.


Robinson's late 00s work reads like a man with fun ideas that kept getting screwed by editorial. His JLA run's last issue made me cry inside because it apparently outlined like 5 more adventures involving throwbacks to DC's long history. Fuck the n52, I want Robinson's Starman-Congorilla duo fucking around on saturn.
I recall she's like, to paraphrase, "I can smell the cum inside his balls from a block away, but you're almost sterile".


I like that scene from Gaiman's Batman book, which yeah it's not canon and strictly a meta thing, but the bit when Joker asks a guy to look after his car.
Guy: "You're gonna kill me"
Joker: "What? No, I need you to look after my car while I'm inside. Easy 20 bucks."
Guy: "But you're the Joker. You're gonna kill me after."
Joker: "I only kill people when it's funny. What could possibly be funny about killing you?"
joker would hold off on it and then decide it'd be funny anyways.
 
Seeing a mention of "Cry for Justice", one of the worst storylines ever. What was a real kicker for me was that I had finally gotten around to finishing up back issues and such of Robinson's Starman run just before I checked out CfJ and all I could think was that it was a real difference. Robinson's run on Starman had its weak points but holy balls CfJ was just awful. Stilted dialogue, ("But I still have to ask -- are you here now as a hero... or a villain?"), panels that often felt out of sequence, dialogue that seems to float in out of nowhere, and characters that often felt like they were barely there. All of the blustering about crying for justice or seeking justice or whatever reminded me of the Totally Nineties DC title "Extreme Justice" I'd encountered in bargain bins, but much, much weaker.
Batwoman being advertised as a main character when she's hardly in it was....a choice. There is a lot of things in CFJ that are a choice. Also Ivy and a few others on the covers when they aren't even in the damn book. They really JJ Abrams-Star Wars'd it didn't they, writing by the seat of their pants. And Lian dying was so dumb. I hope she is resurrected.

I was just thinking of several characters who died for stupid reasons or ways. There's Little Mermaid who was decapitated. That raccoon green lantern guy who got hit by a truck and died. Donna Troy's ex husband and son dying years after they split, Maxima sacrificing herself in the Imperiex War and staying a casualty, Barbara Minerva vs Sebastian Belascos (his death was warranted because what a stupid character), Sue Dibny because holy hell....oh and Lanterns girlfriend who got stuffed into the fridge. There's also Doom Patrol blowing up but that was only once.
 
Batwoman being advertised as a main character when she's hardly in it was....a choice. There is a lot of things in CFJ that are a choice. Also Ivy and a few others on the covers when they aren't even in the damn book. They really JJ Abrams-Star Wars'd it didn't they, writing by the seat of their pants. And Lian dying was so dumb. I hope she is resurrected.

I was just thinking of several characters who died for stupid reasons or ways. There's Little Mermaid who was decapitated. That raccoon green lantern guy who got hit by a truck and died. Donna Troy's ex husband and son dying years after they split, Maxima sacrificing herself in the Imperiex War and staying a casualty, Barbara Minerva vs Sebastian Belascos (his death was warranted because what a stupid character), Sue Dibny because holy hell....oh and Lanterns girlfriend who got stuffed into the fridge. There's also Doom Patrol blowing up but that was only once.
  • they killed a few of the global guardians to raise the stakes, but then kinda never used any of them aside from Fire, Ice, Icemaiden, and Tasmanian Devil.
  • C'hp dying was weird, but kinda made for morbid comedy.
  • Donna's husband and kid dying was just weird but i feel like it was done to clean the slate.
  • Maxima was always kinda a "90s" character. Maybe they coulda continued her, but this was right when the "reconstruction" era was ramping up, so who knows.
  • Sebastian was the one male cheetah and he gets killed. Eh, w/e.
  • Sue Dibny and Katma Tui were sadge.
i think the issue with deaths is that they have to really mean something.

Jared Stevens' "Fate" dying in the start of the JSA revival? Sure, it sets the stakes and clears a character noone liked a lot.

Sue Dibny dying? Bleh.
 
I recall she's like, to paraphrase, "I can smell the cum inside his balls from a block away, but you're almost sterile".


I like that scene from Gaiman's Batman book, which yeah it's not canon and strictly a meta thing, but the bit when Joker asks a guy to look after his car.
Guy: "You're gonna kill me"
Joker: "What? No, I need you to look after my car while I'm inside. Easy 20 bucks."
Guy: "But you're the Joker. You're gonna kill me after."
Joker: "I only kill people when it's funny. What could possibly be funny about killing you?"
Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader was a fun two parter about the legends of the different Batman stories that have happened. The artwork from Andy Kubert was great, not just in the way it referenced all the different artists who've tackled the Bat, but also in the way he told the story. Though at the time it was weird seeing Scott Williams and Alex Sinclair doing a book without Jim Lee, but it worked.
 
Sue Dibny dying? Bleh.
Which reminded me, thinking back onRobinson's Starman, while I was not a huge Elongated Man fan or anything the depiction of the Dibneys in that series, as a couple of happily married detectives who are really good at being detectives and have a delightful back and forth, it was the characters at their best - at a time not too far from the era of Identity Crisis and 52. I mean imagine, characters in superhero comics that don't get kicked in the teeth by life and are miserable all the time because editorial demands it or something and are in long-term relationships that aren't constantly having misunderstandings that bring them to the edge.
 
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This talk about bad comics... What makes a comic bad for you? There is one example that I would like to use that is Trouble by millar, I think the book is alright and the art is good, but then people say it is bad only because it deals with a specific cast of characters in their youth.

I Believe that for something to be truly bad, it must be in their own strucure rather than the characterization, shit like shit illustration, bad coloring, wrong fonts and text not centralized and so on.

there is one famously bad comic that I love qnd that is Marville, it is so entertaining, I cant hate it and love it. It is so unpredictable in each issue that makes it a wild ride.
 
This talk about bad comics... What makes a comic bad for you? There is one example that I would like to use that is Trouble by millar, I think the book is alright and the art is good, but then people say it is bad only because it deals with a specific cast of characters in their youth.

I Believe that for something to be truly bad, it must be in their own strucure rather than the characterization, shit like shit illustration, bad coloring, wrong fonts and text not centralized and so on.

there is one famously bad comic that I love qnd that is Marville, it is so entertaining, I cant hate it and love it. It is so unpredictable in each issue that makes it a wild ride.
I disagree, a comic can be bad not from a writing point or art issues, but in the way it fucks up a character. For example, the stuff Adam Beeden did with Cassandra Cain is some of my most hated issues, not because of the stories really, but because of what it did to one of the first DC characters I started following. Yes it was an editorial mandate, but it still bothers me. Especially because his initial reason for her going evil is because she was jealous that her father had other children, it's a shitty motivation. These books don't exist as standalone works, they're part of a greater world and if a book doesn't work in the context of the world, then it is a bad comic.

As for what makes a bad comic for me? It depends on what it's trying to be. For example, are you trying to do something like Scott Pilgrim? Then you need a simpler, cartoony style with high energy. Are you trying to make a dark and serious Batman story? Then that same art style would be detrimental. This was why I believe Goran Parlov was a bad choice for Valley Forge, Valley Forge, but was fine on the Barracuda arcs, because Barracuda is an over the top character and the simple style helps emphasize the cartoony nature of the character. Whereas the final arc was mostly serious.

Continuity is also important, to a degree. Bendis always bugged me because he doesn't believe in it. I could go on for pages about issues with Ultimate Spider-Man and some of the shit he screwed up in his Avengers run, not other people's stories but his own. If you're reading Ultimate Spider-Man and suddenly there's a reveal that before the series started, MJ and Harry were an item, despite this never being referenced before, it doesn't make for a stronger story, it takes you out of it.

There's more to it, but those two for me are the main ones.
 
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This talk about bad comics... What makes a comic bad for you? There is one example that I would like to use that is Trouble by millar, I think the book is alright and the art is good, but then people say it is bad only because it deals with a specific cast of characters in their youth.

I Believe that for something to be truly bad, it must be in their own strucure rather than the characterization, shit like shit illustration, bad coloring, wrong fonts and text not centralized and so on.

there is one famously bad comic that I love qnd that is Marville, it is so entertaining, I cant hate it and love it. It is so unpredictable in each issue that makes it a wild ride.
I mean, when it comes to creators handling pre-established characters, I guess I'll echo some of what @Arthur Morgan is saying and say that a bad comic is when a creator puts his/her own creative impulses before the integrity of the characters. I.e., when they put whatever hacky or headline-grabbing premise ahead the traditional traits of the characters, or how they're normally supposed to interact.

Tom King is quite possibly the most apt embodiment of this phenomenon. It doesn't matter what he's writing...be it Batman, Supergirl, or Wonder Woman as he's doing currently...he will happily snap character history, internal consistency and traditional in-universe continuity clean in half to accommodate whatever pretentious, edgy, post-modernist point he's trying to make, no matter how much of a poor fit it is with the character he's shamelessly wiping his balls with.

He's like Zack Snyder if he huffed comic paint instead of his own farts.
 
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Tom King is quite possibly the most apt embodiment of this phenomenon. It doesn't matter what he's writing...be it Batman, Supergirl, or Wonder Woman as he's doing currently...he will happily snap character history, internal consistency and traditional in-universe continuity clean in half to accommodate whatever pretentious, edgy, post-modernist point he's trying to make, no matter how much of a poor fit it is with the character he's shamelessly wiping his balls with.
I read the Woman of Tomarrow comic becuase I just wanted to see why the hell they were making that into a film. After reading it, I still don't know other then that the art was quite good. Tom King is a really hollow writer to me. He gets all this acclame but there is nothing really there.
 
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