Ryukishi07 megathread / griefing thread - Higurashi, Umineko, Ciconia, etc.

[Jonah Hill poster]

At least we haven’t reached Attack On Titan final chapters of manga storytelling…... YET.

 

[HexFag]

At least we haven’t reached Attack On Titan final chapters of manga storytelling…... YET.

I mean Ymir and Satoko both really like their abusers, that's a little too close for me.

 

[Trombonista]

 

[Return of the Freaker]

So I haven't read Ciconia, but I don't care about spoilers. How true is it that Ryukishi is tumblr pandering? I know apparently the main character is a troon.

 

[keyboredsm4shthe2nd]

cool so she just killed Teppei. so how's Teppei supposed to bash Keiichi's brains out now?

 

[HexFag]

So I haven't read Ciconia, but I don't care about spoilers. How true is it that Ryukishi is tumblr pandering? I know apparently the main character is a troon.

Miyao isn't a troon just a schizo with multiple personalities.

cool so she just killed Teppei. so how's Teppei supposed to bash Keiichi's brains out now?

If this sequence is a hallucination but not the scene where Keiichi gets stabbed and Rena gets clocked in Onidamashi I think I'll ragequit.

 

[Return of the Freaker]

cool so she just killed Teppei. so how's Teppei supposed to bash Keiichi's brains out now?

Some brainlets on youtube were dragging in Willard Wright's bit from Beatrice's funeral ("blah blah illusions to illusions,,,") and saying we were seeing an illusion or some shit.

OG Higurashi had similar shit, but it's one thing for Keiichi to hallucinate a sharpie as a syringe. It's another to show the viewers Teppei and have it be someone else. Higurashi doesn't have the character or story mechanics to pull that kind of shit like Umineko did.

Clown world prediction: Satoko somehow knocks out Detective Delicious, dresses him in Teppei's clothes, and injects him with the syndrome

 

[Bruh Really]

This whole fucking episode was retarded and they really intend to redeem Satako by saying it was "a witch who did it!"

Like damn, I'm not going to get into super spoiler territory and try to keep it short but one of the reasons witches existing in Umineko was plausible is because of the environment it takes place in, an isolated island with little connection to the rest of the world with little technology.

Much like urban legends, even though we fundamentally believe most of them aren't real and cant exist, if a person was suddenly thrown into a thick forest with a bunch of other people, with little to no technology and every single person mentions how Skinwalkers live in this forest and constantly mention them, then the next day you see those people butchered or go missing, you just might think that a Skinwalker did it instead of having the rational thought of "one of your friends is a murderer"

Why? Because that's the environment that you're in, your situation isn't rational and rational thought will fly right out the window for most people under those situations, either out of fear or to cope with the situation that they're in (It's much easier to blame a Skinwalker than to say one of your friends is a murderer)

Witches wouldn't be able to exist in the real world because of the "anti-magic toxin", this was a specific point in the visual novel.

Magic is extremely powerful, but can be undone in a flash by the "anti-magic toxin" produced by nonbelievers; in other words, their identities in their fantasy world are firm until they run into someone refusing to play along.

Basically people in the real world aren't going to play along with your bullshit and pinning the blame for your actions on a witch isn't going to fly, you're responsible for your own actions as a person unless deemed mentally insane.

Trying to redeem Satako by saying "it was the witch side of her who's responsible!" is the equivalent of saying that "this person isn't responsible for his actions, it's the schizophrenia" the difference being one of them is a legit medical condition and the other is made up bullshit.

I'll end that rant there, but from the moment they introduced Eua & witches into Gou this series was on a downhill spiral of autism. Ryukishi07 is trying way to hard to mix two separate entities that were never meant to be taken this literally, which was again, one of the main points to understand in Umineko.

With 5 episodes left and the fanbase in full autism mode, I really don't have any hopes for this series being able to stand on it's own two legs without going the full witch route.

 

[Kari Kamiya]

Trying to redeem Satako by saying "it was the witch side of her who's responsible!" is the equivalent of saying that "this person isn't responsible for his actions, it's the schizophrenia" the difference being one of them is a legit medical condition and the other is made up bullshit.

And remember, even Higurashi acknowledged this and still said "Murder is murder no matter what, and the consequences must follow." There were no legit excuses for a murder to have occurred because there was always a non-violent option to go through first. That's one of the reasons why there were fans who took issue with the end of the series where Takano was ultimately forgiven for her crimes because of her motives behind them, but she still had to suffer the consequences of her actions which nearly killed her. Still, though, she was sympathetic enough as a villain that some folks ultimately shrugged it off and agreed she could have a second chance in life.

Hence why Ryukishi is trying to do the same thing with Teppei and Ritsuko, but unfortunately for him, he had long made it clear these two were real shitty people and there were no actual redeeming traits about them. While killing them was and always is the wrong thing to do, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who thinks they don't deserve what was coming to them. Takano definitely could've deserved getting a bullet to her head for what she did, but there was still something about her that could be redeemed, and the happy ending meant that no one dies in year five of the curse, Takano included. (Which is interesting since in every single world, Takano never dies, but she could've been prevented from spilling more blood and be snapped out of her god complex. There may be a probable world where she did end up shooting herself at Okonogi's request.)

 

[Bruh Really]

And remember, even Higurashi acknowledged this and still said "Murder is murder no matter what, and the consequences must follow." There were no legit excuses for a murder to have occurred because there was always a non-violent option to go through first. That's one of the reasons why there were fans who took issue with the end of the series where Takano was ultimately forgiven for her crimes because of her motives behind them, but she still had to suffer the consequences of her actions which nearly killed her. Still, though, she was sympathetic enough as a villain that some folks ultimately shrugged it off and agreed she could have a second chance in life.

Exactly, this was always a series that despite throwing otherworldly elements into the narrative (Hanyu, Demons, Curses) it always did it's best to convey to the reader that those things don't actually exist (With Hanyu being her own special case, she's ultimately powerless), that any tragedy that happens is always done by human hands, and this was far before Umineko was written.

I think people ultimately forgave Takano was because she was written well enough that you could sympathize with her to a certain extent, or at least understand her situation well enough to see why her life spiraled out of control the way it did.

Her parent's suddenly dying due to a train accident, to being taken to a 1970's orphanage where they don't really care about the orphans but about the income that they bring from the state, to said orphans outright being abused,tortured if not outright KILLED on a daily bases with little to no consequence
(This is the early 70's and japan, no internet or twitter or any #orphanslivesmatter bullshit to save you)

Then when she finally does get pulled out of that situation, the one remaining person she considers family basically get's treated like shit and a nutcase and ultimately dies without achieving his lifegoals. After all of that, when she's finally finds a lifeline that will prove her grandfathers theory correct, it just so happens that it wasn't a lifeline but a bungee cord straight to hell, that the company backing her (Tokyo) was just using her for their own gains and didn't really care about her or her theories at all.

And this is all before you know that Takano is also infected with Hinamizawa Syndrome at the very end of the series, making her insanity that much more justifiable to a degree.

Hence why Ryukishi is trying to do the same thing with Teppei and Ritsuko, but unfortunately for him, he had long made it clear these two were real shitty people and there were no actual redeeming traits about them.

This is also something that bothers me to no end.
Like no, if I had a family member that abused me as a child, to the point that it leaves bruises, possibly broken teeth or bones then I don't fucking care if they suddenly have a change of heart and decide to be nice again, there's no redeeming such people.

Even if forgiveness is the entire point of the OG Higurashi, there's a limit to how far you can push that (Which is ironic considering your friends are murdering each other, but at least then you know it's not truly their own fault and their ultimately victims to the madness) With Teppei, he's literally just an alcoholic abuser who can't even wash his own clothes, something that people can relate to having. Thing's used to get so bad that Rika would outright consider suicide if he ever appeared in a fragment since she believed there was no saving Satako from him without murder.

The fact that Gou & Sotsu try to DeusExMachina them into being good is honestly just retarded, they have no backstory to do the things they do, no real reasons, their just shitty people and the fact that the fanbase is so willing to forgive them and overlook everything that they did is disgusting.

 

[R.E.O. Spedwagon]

Out of all the fucking characters, why the fuck make it the abusive Yakuza that pushes Satoko over the edge?

Teppei isn't even an actual Yakuza. He's just a bitch-tier crook who gets his shit kicked in whenever he pisses off the actual mobsters too much.

This is so fucking dumb I had to post his entire inner monologue. How could you believe this without a second thought, Ooishi? There's no way your paranoia has let you come to this deduction, you clearly have bias toward this kid just because he shows actual concern for a friend. Given that had Keiichi just killed Teppei like he originally would, Ooishi would antagonize him as a suspect, but at least he has probable cause for that. He doesn't even have that here.

Honestly, Ooishi's thoughts here are the least notable issue here, given the retarded shit he believed in the original, such as his being convinced that the Sonozakis were behind the dismemberment murder, that they pushed the Houjou couple off a cliff and convinced their daughter to lie about what she saw, that they murdered the Furude couple, and lastly set up the son of the Houjou couple to murder his aunt, whose crimes were just being kind of a shit neighbour. And that's not even getting into how he got caught up in Rena's schizo conspiracy theories in Tsumihoroboshi., Getting injected with H173 would obviously make him even more retarded and it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to come to the conclusion that the Sonozakis are setting up the outsider Keiichi as another Satoshi, and use him as part of their schemes to retain their iron grip on Hinamizawa.
He never bothered to investigate the clinic where the Furudes were last seen, even though the whole thing is shady and notably stands out as being far too large and well-equipped for such a small village, nor did he ever look into the identity of the guy who choked him out during the kidnapping case, which would lead him straight to the actual conspiracy happening in the village.
The actual retarded shit involving Ooishi is how he doesn't even question how Satoko can be bullied by the entire village including her classmates when she's known to be a member of Mion's circle of friends, as well as just completely ignoring how he fell asleep in the Houjou house for some reason.

 

[John Titor]

I didn't realize it was out and I just got caught up so here are my quick thoughts.

Spoiler

• I like the perspective flips. I'm not going to try to argue whether or not it's good writing, but I like how it showed that Rena wasn't going psychotic out of nowhere and how the sinister looking scenes turned out to actually be sinister and dialogue getting taken out of context.
• I know it's recycled animation but I still maintain that the shrine dance was the most well animated scene of the show and I wouldn't be surprised if they blew their budget on that.
• Rina backing off is an interesting idea but I agree that it's just way too out of character for her knowing the details. I know she was retarded because she messed with the yakuza but man did she held on to the idiot ball when she agreed to follow someone she just met to a junkyard.
• Unpopular opinion but I think Teppei's redemption would make an interesting premise but it's just not believably written here for reasons all of you already stated. If you remember Umineko, Rosa's treatment of Maria was far more believable. Like, holy shit, he got castrated by Satoko.
• Teppei's poor attempt at a smile was pretty funny, ngl.
• My hope that they don't turn this into lesbian shipping show is being dashed. Leave that shit to insane shippers.

 

[Gensou Hadou]

one of the reasons witches existing in Umineko was plausible is because of the environment it takes place in, an isolated island with little connection to the rest of the world with little technology.

Much like urban legends, even though we fundamentally believe most of them aren't real and cant exist, if a person was suddenly thrown into a thick forest with a bunch of other people, with little to no technology and every single person mentions how Skinwalkers live in this forest and constantly mention them, then the next day you see those people butchered or go missing, you just might think that a Skinwalker did it instead of having the rational thought of "one of your friends is a murderer"

Why? Because that's the environment that you're in, your situation isn't rational and rational thought will fly right out the window for most people under those situations, either out of fear or to cope with the situation that they're in (It's much easier to blame a Skinwalker than to say one of your friends is a murderer)

Witches wouldn't be able to exist in the real world because of the "anti-magic toxin", this was a specific point in the visual novel.



Basically people in the real world aren't going to play along with your bullshit and pinning the blame for your actions on a witch isn't going to fly, you're responsible for your own actions as a person unless deemed mentally insane.

So what you're saying is, Satoko could stop the murders right now if she just said, "Witches aren't real!" and then countered every argument Featherine and Witchtoko threw at her?

Oh, who am I kidding? This is Newgurashi. Witches are real and no way is the "anti-magic toxin" a thing.

 

[Kari Kamiya]

Honestly, Ooishi's thoughts here are the least notable issue here, given the retarded shit he believed in the original, such as his being convinced that the Sonozakis were behind the dismemberment murder, that they pushed the Houjou couple off a cliff and convinced their daughter to lie about what she saw, that they murdered the Furude couple, and lastly set up the son of the Houjou couple to murder his aunt, whose crimes were just being kind of a shit neighbour.

The Sonozakis being number one on his primary suspect list was perfectly justified given their status as the family leader of the village calling all the shots. He technically wasn't wrong they were involved because they were just playing along/covering things up just to give off the illusion there was a curse going on in response to the dam war, in which they had led the resistance. Ooishi being an outsider meant he wasn't privy to just believing everything the Sonozakis said and going along with it, he just needed to find the evidence to give him probable cause to arrest Oryo.

And weirdly enough, this meant he was in the right spot to be known as "Oyashiro's messenger" since he was present during the years the curse struck, and he helped to play key roles in causing the protagonists to grow paranoid. I don't think the Sonozakis or even the Kimiyoshis were behind that rumor, the villagers came to that conclusion based on observation, although Irie might've been the one to suggest that to help cover the clinic's tracks. (Of which you do bring up a good point he never bothered to look further into the clinic. He was aware they weren't always there, but I guess he never could get a warrant or something to just search the place, or the Yamainu were pulling some strings behind the scenes. There might've been an actual mole in the police department.)

And that's not even getting into how he got caught up in Rena's schizo conspiracy theories in Tsumihoroboshi.

The theories Rena brought up to him before the Sonozakis showed him Takano's notes were plausible theories, to be honest. When she started going on about aliens and clones to him when she had run away, he was much more skeptical about it.

nor did he ever look into the identity of the guy who choked him out during the kidnapping case, which would lead him straight to the actual conspiracy happening in the village.

Yeah, that was a weird thing, but that entire arc was just a weird arc regardless despite the clues. I think the Yamainu/Tokyo had something to do with steering the investigation away, but there were definitely a lot of red herrings going on given the perfect timing of the dam war that I don't know if Ooishi would've ever considered it, or even been allowed to look into it once the case was closed. All he noted was the guys were legit professionals, and the Sonozakis were by then already suspicious enough.

 

[Bruh Really]

So what you're saying is, Satoko could stop the murders right now if she just said, "Witches aren't real!" and then countered every argument Featherine and Witchtoko threw at her?

Oh, who am I kidding? This is Newgurashi. Witches are real and no way is the "anti-magic toxin" a thing.

According to Umineko's own rules, yes. She should be able to do exactly that, since this would technically be a "it's all in your head" scenario.

But this is Newgurashi except unironically. Where it's fuck the canon, fuck the rules and apparently fuck the characters too.

 

[Trombonista]

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

This whole fucking episode was retarded and they really intend to redeem Satako by saying it was "a witch who did it!"

Like damn, I'm not going to get into super spoiler territory and try to keep it short but one of the reasons witches existing in Umineko was plausible is because of the environment it takes place in, an isolated island with little connection to the rest of the world with little technology.

Much like urban legends, even though we fundamentally believe most of them aren't real and cant exist, if a person was suddenly thrown into a thick forest with a bunch of other people, with little to no technology and every single person mentions how Skinwalkers live in this forest and constantly mention them, then the next day you see those people butchered or go missing, you just might think that a Skinwalker did it instead of having the rational thought of "one of your friends is a murderer"

Why? Because that's the environment that you're in, your situation isn't rational and rational thought will fly right out the window for most people under those situations, either out of fear or to cope with the situation that they're in (It's much easier to blame a Skinwalker than to say one of your friends is a murderer)

Witches wouldn't be able to exist in the real world because of the "anti-magic toxin", this was a specific point in the visual novel.



Basically people in the real world aren't going to play along with your bullshit and pinning the blame for your actions on a witch isn't going to fly, you're responsible for your own actions as a person unless deemed mentally insane.

Trying to redeem Satako by saying "it was the witch side of her who's responsible!" is the equivalent of saying that "this person isn't responsible for his actions, it's the schizophrenia" the difference being one of them is a legit medical condition and the other is made up bullshit.

I'll end that rant there, but from the moment they introduced Eua & witches into Gou this series was on a downhill spiral of autism. Ryukishi07 is trying way to hard to mix two separate entities that were never meant to be taken this literally, which was again, one of the main points to understand in Umineko.

With 5 episodes left and the fanbase in full autism mode, I really don't have any hopes for this series being able to stand on it's own two legs without going the full witch route.

I've always seen the supernatual element of Uminek as a metaphor for avoiding the truth (specifically from Ange's point of view). It's easier to create some outside entity that fucked up with everyone, rather than face the truth that someone you know did a terrible thing. And once you start going down that route it just keeps being more elaborate and nonsensical.

 

[R.E.O. Spedwagon]

The Sonozakis being number one on his primary suspect list was perfectly justified given their status as the family leader of the village calling all the shots. He technically wasn't wrong they were involved because they were just playing along/covering things up just to give off the illusion there was a curse going on in response to the dam war, in which they had led the resistance. Ooishi being an outsider meant he wasn't privy to just believing everything the Sonozakis said and going along with it, he just needed to find the evidence to give him probable cause to arrest Oryo.

Yeah, Oryou definitely didn't do anyone any favours by insinuating that the Sonozakis totally could possibly be behind every major event going on.
She didn't actually want to establish a curse of any kind, however, as the whole situation with the entire village being in fear of it was overall just a huge detriment to her, and she did try thing in order to counteract it, albeit in an extremely roundabout way by setting up empty housing lots and encouraging outsiders to move to the village, which is what allowed Keiichi to move into Hinamizawa.
However, even if we take into account how the Sonozakis made it plausible for them to be the culprits, some of the things that happened still sound preposterous when you look at it calmly.
Oryou killing the priest, even if he was widely considered to be kind of a spineless bitch is hard to believe, especially since it would leave the beloved Rika as an orphan. The fourth incident is even more ridiculous, since it would involve the Sonozakis manipulating Satoshi into murdering Tamae, then disappearing him, and then setting up a drug addict as a scapegoat. The whole thing is preposterous, really, but as Ooishi is convinced that the Sonozakis could pull that off, the idea that they're now setting up the whole CWS situation is a plausible conclusion for him to make, as do his act of petty vandalism to ensure the village targets Teppei, since Tamae was supposedly targeted for similar petty reasons.

According to Umineko's own rules, yes. She should be able to do exactly that, since this would technically be a "it's all in your head" scenario.

But this is Newgurashi except unironically. Where it's fuck the canon, fuck the rules and apparently fuck the characters too.

Sotsu obviously doesn't follow Umineko rules, but instead touches upon the barely-explored, and frankly, incoherent concept of witches as it existed in the original Higurashi, as shown in Minagoroshi, Matsuribayashi, and Saikoroshi. Which allows for stuff like loopers spawning new, separate entities (one of which being the player); having their soul transform into something other than human; and them distancing their current identity from that of the original human they started as.
Rika ultimately avoided such a fate, in large part because she still had Satoko and Hanyuu to chain her to her own humanity, but even she came close to giving up on that, and in Saikoroshi actively started to establish an identity entirely different from that of "Furude Rika", though that ultimately ended with her choosing to continue living as Rika.
Since Satoko doesn't have anything to keep her from going wild, and her equivalent of Hanyuu actively encourages her to do terrible things, it's not really surprising that she did end up going all the way and ended up actually becoming the kind of witch Rika feared she would become if she had left Satoko behind at the end of Minagoroshi.

 

[Kari Kamiya]

Sotsu obviously doesn't follow Umineko rules, but instead touches upon the barely-explored, and frankly, incoherent concept of witches as it existed in the original Higurashi, as shown in Minagoroshi, Matsuribayashi, and Saikoroshi. Which allows for stuff like loopers spawning new, separate entities (one of which being the player); having their soul transform into something other than human; and them distancing their current identity from that of the original human they started as.
Rika ultimately avoided such a fate, in large part because she still had Satoko and Hanyuu to chain her to her own humanity, but even she came close to giving up on that, and in Saikoroshi actively started to establish an identity entirely different from that of "Furude Rika", though that ultimately ended with her choosing to continue living as Rika.

Rika still cast out Bernkastel into the darkness or wherever she came from, so the separation happened anyway, but they no longer mingled. I think we'd know more about the fate of Bernkastel if we were told as to which version of Rika this is: the Rika of Saikoroshi, or if Saikoroshi didn't actually happen. But given red glowy eyes are the (retarded) signs of the witchy side coming out, I guess this isn't the Saikoroshi Rika who cast out her witch side to live as a human, and this was definitely the Bernkastel origin story--despite the fact we already got it back in Saikoroshi.

Since Satoko doesn't have anything to keep her from going wild, and her equivalent of Hanyuu actively encourages her to do terrible things, it's not really surprising that she did end up going all the way and ended up actually becoming the kind of witch Rika feared she would become if she had left Satoko behind at the end of Minagoroshi.

It'd be an interesting what-if if Ryukishi wasn't trying so damn hard to retcon Satoko into Lambdadelta while also spitting on the beaten corpse of a beautiful friendship.

 

[Trombonista]

A reminder of better days: