Red Letter Media

[Agarathium1066]

Honestly just felt like they stopped talking about Kenobi and entered Old Men Yell At Cloud mode near the end like they do so frequently when discussing SW or ST. Far from their hottest takes on anything.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

How does that mean he didn't like it? It says more about how far Star Trek has fallen, and that he can't watch it because it makes him sad something he holds so high is now so low.

That's a useless concept to even discuss seeing as there are no threads in any of the films indicating this. Yes, it's all very contadictory, no this isn't George Lucas being a genius, it's him being a bungling buffoon who cannot write a comprehensible script.

And yet Anglican clergy marry, have sex with their wives, and brew beer. Catholic priests brew beer. Lay members of Catholic fraternal organisations are not ordained but are expected to live lives that are far more virtuous to their other bretheren, they still smoke, have sex, marry, drink, etc. Priests are paid a salary, they have possessions, many stay in the Church as long as possible, but many also retire, pull a pension, own a house and enjoy their final years before bequeathing the remainder to the flock.

Sacrifice is a part of life, but being a borg is viewed equally as poorly as being a sinner. There is no virtue without struggle, and there is no humanity to be saved without that which makes you human in the first place.

"it's fine in the context of that one scene"

I never said that they were pacifists, I said in that specific scene Luke forgoes self-defense because of his emotions. He shows no resistance to the Emperor after that and throws his weapon away, rather than turn it upon the Emperor, a genuinely evil figure. Again, in the context of that scene, it's fine.

Laity are not priests. Jedi are not Laity either. Of course they hold themselves to a higher standard than regular people.
Also, just because some religious people marry does not mean all religious people marry. Priests and monks do make vows of celibacy after all. It just means some protestants are less severe in their adherence to the dogma. The Jedi Council happen to be more dogmatic than Qui-Gonn cared for. That's not really a contradiction in morality; it just makes the Council unimaginative and imperceptive at times.

 

[SteelPlatedHeart]

Hey, the people I watch online have to be in 100% full agreement of every single one of my opinions, or they’re clearly not as funny as they used to be back when I didn’t know they had an opinion different than mine and are just a bunch of poopyheads!

 

[Newman's Lovechild]

Did we all watch the same re:views?

Define 'we'.

 

[Bush King]

Laity are not priests. Jedi are not Laity either. Of course they hold themselves to a higher standard than regular people.
Also, just because some religious people marry does not mean all religious people marry. Priests and monks do make vows of celibacy after all. It just means some protestants are less severe in their adherence to the dogma. The Jedi Council happen to be more dogmatic than Qui-Gonn cared for. That's not really a contradiction in morality; it just makes the Council unimaginative and imperceptive at times.

You don't understand what I'm saying.

My point is that the religions that place high value on virtue and have groups like ascetics still do not treat their spiritual leaders like automata, uncaring, unfeeling, or without needs or desires. Luke in RotJ and the Jedi post-TPM do. Of the groups that do forbid marriage for the clergy, that is only one of dozens of areas where temperance can play a part- again, priests brew and drink beer, grow and smoke tobacco, raise and eat the finest cuts of beef and ham. It's fine for Lucas to portray things as incredibly ascetic for the Jedi, but it has to be done well, and it isn't, and it isn't consistent. Again, Yoda and Ben were not ascetic as a matter of principle, but because of their situation. If you had to hide in a swamp for twenty years you'd be just as temperate as they are even if you were a member of the Satanic Temple and were mad you had to celebrate the anal holidays alone.

It's not a contradiction for Rich to like the spiritual stuff in the first few films and then hate it afterwards- the concepts are approached in radically different ways. The most dogmatic Anglican priests still marry, in fact it is almost expected. Even in Catholicism, clerical celibacy is not dogma, it is simply Papal law, and could be reversed at any time if the Church saw fit. There is emotion, there is love, there is even hate at times, as the entire point is a temporal, human understanding of the spiritual. Spirituality in Star Wars since the 80s has been uncaring, unloving, unfeeling, and it's terrible. No one is interested in or entertained by the morose.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

You don't understand what I'm saying.

My point is that the religions that place high value on virtue and have groups like ascetics still do not treat their spiritual leaders like automata, uncaring, unfeeling, or without needs or desires. Luke in RotJ and the Jedi post-TPM do. Of the groups that do forbid marriage for the clergy, that is only one of dozens of areas where temperance can play a part- again, priests brew and drink beer, grow and smoke tobacco, raise and eat the finest cuts of beef and ham. It's fine for Lucas to portray things as incredibly ascetic for the Jedi, but it has to be done well, and it isn't, and it isn't consistent. Again, Yoda and Ben were not ascetic as a matter of principle, but because of their situation. If you had to hide in a swamp for twenty years you'd be just as temperate as they are even if you were a member of the Satanic Temple and were mad you had to celebrate the anal holidays alone.

It's not a contradiction for Rich to like the spiritual stuff in the first few films and then hate it afterwards- the concepts are approached in radically different ways. The most dogmatic Anglican priests still marry, in fact it is almost expected. Even in Catholicism, clerical celibacy is not dogma, it is simply Papal law, and could be reversed at any time if the Church saw fit. There is emotion, there is love, there is even hate at times, as the entire point is a temporal, human understanding of the spiritual. Spirituality in Star Wars since the 80s has been uncaring, unloving, unfeeling, and it's terrible. No one is interested in or entertained by the morose.

And that was the chief internal conflict for Anakin in the Prequels, having to put up with insane rules that failed to reflect sapient life correctly. Unlike other Jedi, he had a normal human experience to compare and contrast with and found the Jedi way fundamentally unbalanced. Then, he went unbalanced himself to get out of the Jedi way and it isn't until Luke shows up later as a moderate Jedi does he... bring balance to the Force.

Sorry, but you're talking about an element of the Prequels that actually work as intended.

 

[ditto]

RLM are most entertaining when they absolutely despise a thing. Luukewarm reviews tend to be more unfocused and drag on.

 

[Flexo]

Have you ever considered that the Jedi in the Prequels themselves had fundamentally wrong understandings of the Force? TPM's Jedi council, despite being a religious order, were more concerned with worldly affairs like resolving trade disputes than they were in understanding what their prophecies told them. When they hit the turning point and meet the Chosen One, they themselves were afraid of the potential consequences of training him and set the stage for shunning Anakin for the rest of his life and thus created the threat they wanted to prevent. Also, most priests are poor-fags even when they're not in hiding. That's true of just about every major religion; priests, nuns, and monks are expected to sacrifice a great deal of personal comfort for their beliefs. Whether they're being persecuted for their beliefs has no bearing on their financial status.

I'm just going to go ahead and say right now, don't be bringing this into the RLM thread. A lot of what you're talking about here is either not in the movies, or post-hoc rationalizations based upon one-off lines. So the argument isn't going to be going anywhere because there's no common frame of reference. You like the prequels? Awesome. The problem is none of us can see the movie that was inside your head, we can only see what was on screen and for every line you want to make as proof, someone can find another line for a counter. (Because while there are good things about George Lucas, writing and story construction is not his strongest suit.)

 

[Bush King]

And that was the chief internal conflict for Anakin in the Prequels, having to put up with insane rules that failed to reflect sapient life correctly. Unlike other Jedi, he had a normal human experience to compare and contrast with and found the Jedi way fundamentally unbalanced. Then, he went unbalanced himself to get out of the Jedi way and it isn't until Luke shows up later as a moderate Jedi does he... bring balance to the Force.

Sorry, but you're talking about an element of the Prequels that actually work as intended.

Again, you aren't following. The thematic elements of celibate Jedi is not the issue, it's how the Jedi were turned from normal people with super powers in ANH/TESB to boring clergy in RotJ onwards.

It also doesn't work because, fundamentally, the Jedi show zero reasons for their positions and have no theology. The only take away is that they steal young kids to trains with robots, ban marriage, and sit in chairs all day spelling out plot points. The why's and how's are never given, and so there is no meaningful reason to hold the positions they do, and so the celibacy issue is just there to move a plot instead of actually affect characters.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

Again, you aren't following. The thematic elements of celibate Jedi is not the issue, it's how the Jedi were turned from normal people with super powers in ANH/TESB to boring clergy in RotJ onwards.

It also doesn't work because, fundamentally, the Jedi show zero reasons for their positions and have no theology. The only take away is that they steal young kids to trains with robots, ban marriage, and sit in chairs all day spelling out plot points. The why's and how's are never given, and so there is no meaningful reason to hold the positions they do, and so the celibacy issue is just there to move a plot instead of actually affect characters.

Except that it does affect Anakin's character a great deal. The vow of celibacy is part of what makes him an insufferable prick in these movies.

 

[Flexo]

Also, just because some religious people marry does not mean all religious people marry. Priests and monks do make vows of celibacy after all. It just means some protestants are less severe in their adherence to the dogma.

Priests in Eastern Orthodox can be married. Priesthood == celibacy is a Catholic thing and more because of the legal complications surrounding inheritance than a religious tradition. After all, priests in the OT (old testament, not original trilogy) were married too (and I believe rabbis still are today). Though both Jewish and EO faiths do have traditions around ascetism and monasticism. But those would be like separate, "elite" branches of the religion, not cornerstone or central figures.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

I'm just going to go ahead and say right now, don't be bringing this into the RLM thread. A lot of what you're talking about here is either not in the movies, or post-hoc rationalizations based upon one-off lines. So the argument isn't going to be going anywhere because there's no common frame of reference. You like the prequels? Awesome. The problem is none of us can see the movie that was inside your head, we can only see what was on screen and for every line you want to make as proof, someone can find another line for a counter. (Because while there are good things about George Lucas, writing and story construction is not his strongest suit.)

I'm only talking about priests because someone else brought it up. I'm just judging the prequels like any other literary work and find they're a bit deeper than people give them credit for.

 

[Akashic Retard]

I just wish they would stop covering Star Wars and cape shit and Star Trek etc. Enough already, if you don't care about the IPs and don't like the movies and shows then stop watching it and talking about it on the show god damnit and give me some good movie recommendations. The Roger Rabbit review was great. The videos where they talk about a movie I've never heard of are always my favorite. I'm so past giving a shit about Star Wars and the like that I don't even care to hear it get shit on anymore. If I wanted this I would watch The Quartering or some other counter-Nerd™ dunderhead.

 

[Flexo]

Except that it does affect Anakin's character a great deal. The vow of celibacy is part of what makes him an insufferable prick in these movies.

George at least understood that all good romances need an obstacle to overcome in order to be captivating.

The problem was that the central romance of the prequels literally has no reason to be opposed. So he had to go and "invent" the rule of chaste Jedi in order to give the couple something to overcome.

Trust me, I was there. I remember seeing the posters of "a jedi shall not know love" in comic book stores as the movie neared release date and talking with friends about how this came out of nowhere. Oh sure there was nothing in the earlier films contradicting it, but there had never been any indication before of this. Indeed shipping wars were a thing back in the old EU and celebrations when Luke finally got with Mara Jade.

That's one of the bigger problems with the prequels. As soon as you spot 'why' something was done, it loses it's 'depth.' Especially when things aren't explained in depth or made more organic to the story. Hence why at the time, there were plenty of jokes in the fandom of "well the Jedi can't love - so go bang any whore you want, just as long as you don't respect them in the morning."

 

[Doctor of Autism]

I just wish they would stop covering Star Wars and cape shit and Star Trek etc. Enough already, if you don't care about the IPs and don't like the movies and shows then stop watching it and talking about it on the show god damnit and give me some good movie recommendations. The Roger Rabbit review was great. The videos where they talk about a movie I've never heard of are always my favorite. I'm so past giving a shit about Star Wars and the like that I don't even care to hear it get shit on anymore. If I wanted this I would watch The Quartering or some other counter-Nerd™ dunderhead.

Honestly of the three the only ones I don’t mind them talking about is Star Trek only because they are more passionate about it which is why the Picard reviews are pretty good. Though capeshit and Star Wars seems to be based on something niche that interests at least one of them.

 

[Akashic Retard]

Honestly of the three the only ones I don’t mind them talking about is Star Trek only because they are more passionate about it which is why the Picard reviews are pretty good. Though capeshit and Star Wars seems to be based on something niche that interests at least one of them.

Rich is the one that claims to hate Star Wars the most and is also the one that suggested they watch Obi Wan, if I'm remembering correctly. They mentioned it in one of the eps. I may be getting it mixed up with Picard but I think Picard was Mike's idea.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

Rich is the one that claims to hate Star Wars the most and is also the one that suggested they watch Obi Wan, if I'm remembering correctly. They mentioned it in one of the eps. I may be getting it mixed up with Picard but I think Picard was Mike's idea.

Kenobi was Jay’s idea since Rich openly admitted he only watched Kenobi for the sake of the review rather than any mild points of interest compared to Jay who liked Ewan McGregor.

Picard season two was Rich’s idea just to torture Mike only for them to end up feeling a lot of hatred for modern Star Trek in the end.

 

[Akashic Retard]

Kenobi was Jay’s idea since Rich openly admitted he only watched Kenobi for the sake of the review rather than any mild points of interest compared to Jay who liked Ewan McGregor.

Picard season two was Rich’s idea just to torture Mike only for them to end up feeling a lot of hatred for modern Star Trek in the end.

Picard was Rich's idea, Kenobi was Mike's idea, see video. They already hated modern Star Trek, that's why watching it was supposed to be torture.

 

[TVB]

I just wish they would stop covering Star Wars and cape shit and Star Trek etc. Enough already, if you don't care about the IPs and don't like the movies and shows then stop watching it and talking about it on the show god damnit and give me some good movie recommendations. The Roger Rabbit review was great. The videos where they talk about a movie I've never heard of are always my favorite. I'm so past giving a shit about Star Wars and the like that I don't even care to hear it get shit on anymore. If I wanted this I would watch The Quartering or some other counter-Nerd™ dunderhead.

I wish they'd cover something like Stargate for a change instead of doing more capeshit, Star Wars shit or Star Trek shit.

 

[Fools Idol]

I wish they'd cover something like Stargate for a change instead of doing more capeshit, Star Wars shit or Star Trek shit.

They should watch Lexx and Farscape.