Red Letter Media

[Mola Ram]

An autistic tick always goes off in my mind every time he says that, although my opinion is probably skewed by the videogame side of Star Wars which I had more exposure to than any other EU media. With the exception of the core story it's just a setting like any other, you can do whatever with it. All the AT-STs, Lightsabers, the Jedi, and Star Destroyers are just paint for a canvas where a skilled painter could paint whatever he wants (gay metaphor I know). Look at the Mandalorian, you can argue it's just Lone Wolf and Cub, but it had original characters doing something we haven't seen here using familiar imagery. Then S02 happened because Disney (and Filoni I guess) couldn't help being Disney, but that's not the setting's fault.

The setting is incredibly ripe with possibilities. But when Lucas made Darth Vader the polestar of the series by turning him into a fallen messianic figure, and when Disney obviously felt like it would be bad marketing to get away from Skywalkers and stormtroopers and giant space stations, it shackled the story with artificial constraints that no one seems willing to buck. I think half the reason for The Mandalorian's success is that it explores somewhat new concepts (or at least new to the setting). Same goes for Rogue One, even if it does tie into the original movie's storyline. Rich's dismissal is bereft of imagination, but it also recognizes the situation as it exists now. Is he capable of coming up with a great new idea? Possibly, but for all their strengths none of these guys have ever come across as great storytellers. (Mike's idea for what the Clone Wars should have been is mostly dull and unimaginative, except for portraying an increasingly decrepit Coruscant.) But it doesn't matter. Disney will never bother, so why make the effort only to come across as a fanfiction-spouting oddball?

 

[Flexo]

An autistic tick always goes off in my mind every time he says that, although my opinion is probably skewed by the videogame side of Star Wars which I had more exposure to than any other EU media. With the exception of the core story it's just a setting like any other, you can do whatever with it. All the AT-STs, Lightsabers, the Jedi, and Star Destroyers are just paint for a canvas where a skilled painter could paint whatever he wants (gay metaphor I know). Look at the Mandalorian, you can argue it's just Lone Wolf and Cub, but it had original characters doing something we haven't seen here using familiar imagery. Then S02 happened because Disney (and Filoni I guess) couldn't help being Disney, but that's not the setting's fault.

I mean I've argued elsewhere that the Ewok movies have a charm to them so I'm obviously in agreement with you.

Ironically (or is it poetry? like it rhymes?) the problems with Star Wars now are the same as it was when the Holiday Special came out. As detailed by SFDebris, Lucas took his audience for granted and shit out the Holiday Special with bare minimum effort while he focused on other things. It was the Holiday Special flopping HARD that snapped Lucas out of it and got him to buckle down and really focus on getting Empire Strikes Back to be the best movie it could possibly be. (Yes, I am saying had the holiday special not happened, we would have had a crap ESB movie.)

Instead of sitting down and really polishing the scripts and stories, current SW keeps taking the audience for granted and doing the bare minimum to be entertaining, constantly shitting out first draft products. Mandalorian S1 has been the best Disney thing so far for the same reason as above. Bad choices had driven the franchise so far into the ground the creators had to buckle down and really try to make a good story. (even then Mando S1 has issues) As they've started having success again, the products are again tanking in quality.

Ironically I'm not even sure the same thing was responsible for the prequels - I honestly think Lucas did try as hard as he could to make good movies, but the man, like all writers, is mortal. For whatever reason (and we may never know) I think he was a victim of his own success and couldn't get enough pushback to really buckle down and polish the films. (Though I've heard Rick actually would argue with him. Maybe George had gotten too proud to listen until TPM's reaction, but perquel sperging is beyond the point.)

This is partially what bugs me about the prequels - George tried to push into new territory and flopped, leading to everyone assuming trying to do anything new with SW would lead to disaster. It's not even a correlation/causation fallacy but a coincidence/causation fallacy. There's plenty of space to push out and explore in SW, the creators just have to make it good.

(Mike's idea for what the Clone Wars should have been is mostly dull and unimaginative, except for portraying an increasingly decrepit Coruscant.)

The movies just needed SOME kind of sign that the war was impacting the galaxy. Some way the audience could understand why Palpatine got applause for going all "emperor" instead of it just being another hack political point.

 

[Protistology]

For whatever reason (and we may never know) I think he was a victim of his own success and couldn't get enough pushback to really buckle down and polish the films.

He wrote the script, didn't allow ablibing and his ex-wife wasn't editing and ghost writing. Personally, I love his salad review private films he's done since so all well that ends well.

 

[6MillionCoofs]

This is partially what bugs me about the prequels - George tried to push into new territory and flopped, leading to everyone assuming trying to do anything new with SW would lead to disaster. It's not even a correlation/causation fallacy but a coincidence/causation fallacy. There's plenty of space to push out and explore in SW, the creators just have to make it good.

That's the funny thing though. They didn't flop.

And then Disney came along and gave the people complaining exactly what they wanted, and they complained about that as well, despite it too not flopping.

And the same thing will happen with the Sequels. Only difference being that Sequel merch will go for more because no one bought it.

 

[RA-5C Vigilante]

New Re:View up, this time, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, featuring Jay and Rich:

 

[Flexo]

Oh finally! Something else to sperg about!

 

[Bush King]

It's not sustainable, but it's the current Hollywood environment. I don't think RLM in general has been very complimentary towards the ENDLESS TRASH model, but they acknowledge that there are some movies that 'work' within that context and they enjoy. It doesn't mean they're advocating that this is how a movie 'should' be or whatever.

Probably helps the guys are business owners themselves. I never fully clicked why businesses do things the way they do until I did economics and had a couple accounting and business finance units under my belt.

It's less ENDLESS TRASH and more an incredibly long operating cycle. Construction is notorious for blow out collapses where giant projects are shut down because a builder was unable to get enough from a customer before the end of a supplier's 180 day cash cycle. Hollywood is much worse. Shit gets greenlit 2/3/4 years in advance, you've got to pay pre-production crew that entire time (and they have big salaries), then you have three months where you have 500+ people on sets and behind the scenes, 500+ animators in post-production, then it takes six months for the final edit and approval to hit screens, then possibly another year before it actually starts taking ticket sales, and there's a strong chance you'll end up with a bomb that barely eeks out a profit or breaks even purely because of a fickle audience. Shit's crazy. They literally cannot afford to take risks.

When a film gets approved they also don't look at the whole company, they look at the project itself as a self-contained profit/expense schedule. If it doesn't have a strong estimated net present value, return rate, return on capital, or if the sensitivity of certain variables are too high it gets scrapped. The issue is that they're also in too deep. You can't just cancel the Justice League movie. It has massive ripple effects. If a big move fails, that loss has to be taken up elsewhere, that means new finance being brought in, lower profits elsewhere, and less projects being undertaken. If one of these big fucking movies fails, it's curtains.

Oh finally! Something else to sperg about!

Consume RLM argument, get excited for next RLM argument.

 

[SteelPlatedHeart]

New Re:View up, this time, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, featuring Jay and Rich:https://youtube.com/watch?v=RgnN62S02xg

Oh snap!

 

[Well Intentioned]

If one of these big fucking movies fails, it's curtains.

Yeah, this is it, exactly. I was using 'endless trash' as a bit of a shorthand for 'safe' films that studio execs are hedging their bets on. It's a basic cost benefits analysis, which makes sense when you're dealing with millions of dollars, as you outlined previously.

It's a shitty model or process for creating something truly unique, interesting, thought-provoking, etc. but it's great for maximizing your revenue.

And again, we can point to a clip from one of the Plinkett reviews that more or less sums up this sentiment (and again harkens back to why JJ Abrams would've been a good fit for the prequels), it's Lucas chanting "Under Budget! Under Budget!"

 

[SteelPlatedHeart]

 

[DankSmoker]

The camera tech they were blanking on is called vistaglide.

 

[Bush King]

Yeah, this is it, exactly. I was using 'endless trash' as a bit of a shorthand for 'safe' films that studio execs are hedging their bets on. It's a basic cost benefits analysis, which makes sense when you're dealing with millions of dollars, as you outlined previously.

It's a shitty model or process for creating something truly unique, interesting, thought-provoking, etc. but it's great for maximizing your revenue.

And again, we can point to a clip from one of the Plinkett reviews that more or less sums up this sentiment (and again harkens back to why JJ Abrams would've been a good fit for the prequels), it's Lucas chanting "Under Budget! Under Budget!"

There's always the fact that these massive studios make a fair amount of profit due to scale as well. Disney made something like $70 billion in 2021 for a net profit of $2.5 billion. That's a tiny margin compared to costs to fit things in, especially during the last few years, but you can slot in a few artsy features in there for $20 million.

Part of why I think our beloved Mr. Weinstein lasted so long before he finally pissed off enough of his friends was his George Lucas mindset. Lucas himself is an artsy-farty person, even though his films are shot like sitcoms. They aren't good directors or writers, but they're amazing producers, and can get every red cent out of production to go the extra mile. They also use(d) their big releases to fund smaller productions. Lucas himself still dumps billions of dollars onto schools occasionally so they can upgrade equipment and sometimes fund a film department. People looked past Harvey's actions because, ultimately, he actually did do a net positive in the industry. Other people in his position were pure sleaze, just leeching off everyone else. Harvey would tell you your film wouldn't get made unless he could jerk off onto you, but then he made sure your indie film got a $10 million production budget, $50 million marketing budget, had the best crew involved, and went on tour to all the festivals to drum up hype.

At the end of the day, it's all about money. If you look at the industry elsewhere there are no competitors to the US market. European flicks are mostly small-budget arthouse films because there are no investors or supporting industries so everything has to be character-driven, personal, small-scale, etc. The only large films produced in Europe are Italian productions because of their magnificent film studios in Rome, but these are produced and financed 90% by Americans. China is the only country that can approach the US in terms of the scale and skill of the film industry, but they are still very much in their infancy and only recently coming to terms with being able to fund their own giant productions. They will never be seen outside of China and Mandarin theaters that are popping up in Chinese colonies in the West. I'm not the one for the "end of history" idea, but to me it seems that is the case for film. Since the beginning of commercial film it has been American, American, American, American.

 

[Strange Wilderness]

An autistic tick always goes off in my mind every time he says that, although my opinion is probably skewed by the videogame side of Star Wars which I had more exposure to than any other EU media. With the exception of the core story it's just a setting like any other, you can do whatever with it. All the AT-STs, Lightsabers, the Jedi, and Star Destroyers are just paint for a canvas where a skilled painter could paint whatever he wants (gay metaphor I know). Look at the Mandalorian, you can argue it's just Lone Wolf and Cub, but it had original characters doing something we haven't seen here using familiar imagery. Then S02 happened because Disney (and Filoni I guess) couldn't help being Disney, but that's not the setting's fault.

As stupid as the old EU got at times at least it showed that Star Wars could be more than just Lightsabers and X-Wings. Political drama, murder mysteries, noir, corporate sabotage, race wars between aliens, honor gone wrong, espionage, save the whales BS, crime thriller with giant slugs, etc. It was a universe with infinite potential that fell apart because of a fat hack in a flannel shirt, or because of the incompetience of a board of directors hiring hack yes-men because they know how to check-off diversity boxes. Depends on who you talk to.

Oh finally! Something else to sperg about!

But what is everyone here going to sperg about now? Which cartoon duck is the best duck? Is it Donald? Daffy? Howard? At least there's something else to sperg about besides Star Wars.

 

[Cantercoin]

But what is everyone here going to sperg about now? Which cartoon duck is the best duck? Is it Donald? Daffy? Howard? At least there's something else to sperg about besides Star Wars.

I guess if we were gonna sperg out about something it would be who actually liked the Chip and Dale movie because everyone I've seen has just been lambasting it especially with the entire peter pan reveal

 

[Professor G. Raff]

Ah, hell yeah. WithWho Framed Roger Rabbit? and Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory they've now done 2/3rds of my favorite movies! Now they just gotta do Pee-Wee's Big Adventure and it'll be the hat-trick... and it's not impossible as they've mentioned it a few times through the years.

 

[Los Pollos Hermanos]

But what is everyone here going to sperg about now? Which cartoon duck is the best duck? Is it Donald? Daffy? Howard? At least there's something else to sperg about besides Star Wars.

Well only Donald is calling Daffy (the BLACK duck!) a nigger, soooooo (about 36 seconds in)

 

[Cool Dog]

The setting is incredibly ripe with possibilities. But when Lucas made Darth Vader the polestar of the series by turning him into a fallen messianic figure, and when Disney obviously felt like it would be bad marketing to get away from Skywalkers and stormtroopers and giant space stations, it shackled the story with artificial constraints that no one seems willing to buck. I think half the reason for The Mandalorian's success is that it explores somewhat new concepts (or at least new to the setting). Same goes for Rogue One, even if it does tie into the original movie's storyline. Rich's dismissal is bereft of imagination, but it also recognizes the situation as it exists now. Is he capable of coming up with a great new idea? Possibly, but for all their strengths none of these guys have ever come across as great storytellers. (Mike's idea for what the Clone Wars should have been is mostly dull and unimaginative, except for portraying an increasingly decrepit Coruscant.) But it doesn't matter. Disney will never bother, so why make the effort only to come across as a fanfiction-spouting oddball?

Mike will never ever be given the opportunity to be in a star wars or star trek project. The thing is hollywood is the most inbreed most nepotistic industry out there, everybody is related to everybody or a close friend, theres no place there for some guys from milwaukee

Also hollywood never fucking forgets when you call them out on their shit, they are still buttdestroyed about that shitty blacklist of commies

There's always the fact that these massive studios make a fair amount of profit due to scale as well. Disney made something like $70 billion in 2021 for a net profit of $2.5 billion. That's a tiny margin compared to costs to fit things in, especially during the last few years, but you can slot in a few artsy features in there for $20 million.

Part of why I think our beloved Mr. Weinstein lasted so long before he finally pissed off enough of his friends was his George Lucas mindset. Lucas himself is an artsy-farty person, even though his films are shot like sitcoms. They aren't good directors or writers, but they're amazing producers, and can get every red cent out of production to go the extra mile. They also use(d) their big releases to fund smaller productions. Lucas himself still dumps billions of dollars onto schools occasionally so they can upgrade equipment and sometimes fund a film department. People looked past Harvey's actions because, ultimately, he actually did do a net positive in the industry. Other people in his position were pure sleaze, just leeching off everyone else. Harvey would tell you your film wouldn't get made unless he could jerk off onto you, but then he made sure your indie film got a $10 million production budget, $50 million marketing budget, had the best crew involved, and went on tour to all the festivals to drum up hype.

At the end of the day, it's all about money. If you look at the industry elsewhere there are no competitors to the US market. European flicks are mostly small-budget arthouse films because there are no investors or supporting industries so everything has to be character-driven, personal, small-scale, etc. The only large films produced in Europe are Italian productions because of their magnificent film studios in Rome, but these are produced and financed 90% by Americans. China is the only country that can approach the US in terms of the scale and skill of the film industry, but they are still very much in their infancy and only recently coming to terms with being able to fund their own giant productions. They will never be seen outside of China and Mandarin theaters that are popping up in Chinese colonies in the West. I'm not the one for the "end of history" idea, but to me it seems that is the case for film. Since the beginning of commercial film it has been American, American, American, American.

The yuros make plenty of shlock too, you just dont see it because it barely makes it out. Example I remember some german american pie-like comedy from the early 2000s that they showed in hbo once, it was anything but arthouse shit

As for choyna the problem is that even when they try to appeal to the west their movies are too cringy, too chinese, kinda like how anime was and still is too japanese but the difference is that anime has a certain cool factor while chinese movies are shit

 

[Bush King]

The yuros make plenty of shlock too, you just dont see it because it barely makes it out. Example I remember some german american pie-like comedy from the early 2000s that they showed in hbo once, it was anything but arthouse shit

I should have been more specific- their globally successful films are artsy. It's not National Socialism's Polish Vacation starring Johann von Gerrghenswittebach that gets known outside of Europe, it's the Hunt, Antichrist, Life is Beautiful, etc.

As for choyna the problem is that even when they try to appeal to the west their movies are too cringy, too chinese, kinda like how anime was and still is too japanese but the difference is that anime has a certain cool factor while chinese movies are shit

Chinese films have ambitions of American quality but they end up looking like those Turkish or Russian war films- they're bombastic, they're chauvinistic, they're unapologetic, but they look like a Medieval TV show that would have been on free TV in the mid-2000's. Everything is green screened, and it's some shit CGI they got over there. Their comedies are hugely successful domestically, but no Westerner wants to see Chinese films anymore. The age of the Hong Kong flick died when China took over the city.

Prediction: over the next 5/10/20/50 years the CCP will have autistic debates over their film industry. The Chinese film industry does not need to aim for a global audience, it is large enough internally, and it will lead to a lot of schlock like we have in the West but ten times worse. The CCP will have actual debates over whether or not Wolf Warrior MCLXXIII is a good influence on the country because of how schlocky it is.

 

[Commander X]

In re: the re:View - Speaking of Cool World from what I've heard, including from a guy in the animation business who'd met Ralph Bakshi and who was a regular at a forum I was also a regular at years ago, the movie was originally conceived as a horror film with a half-human half-"toon" woman out for revenge as both humans and cartoon people had rejected her. Then, at the last minute the studio forced a new script on Bakshi and told him this is the one he was going to make. Also, Kim Basinger made a real pain out of herself during the making of it, apparently she wanted a family-friendly movie to star in that her children could watch and the reaction from some was like lady, you knew this project involved people boning cartoons when you signed up for it, where are you getting "let's make it family friendly!" from.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Chinese films have ambitions of American quality but they end up looking like those Turkish or Russian war films- they're bombastic, they're chauvinistic, they're unapologetic, but they look like a Medieval TV show that would have been on free TV in the mid-2000's. Everything is green screened, and it's some shit CGI they got over there. Their comedies are hugely successful domestically, but no Westerner wants to see Chinese films anymore. The age of the Hong Kong flick died when China took over the city.

Prediction: over the next 5/10/20/50 years the CCP will have autistic debates over their film industry. The Chinese film industry does not need to aim for a global audience, it is large enough internally, and it will lead to a lot of schlock like we have in the West but ten times worse. The CCP will have actual debates over whether or not Wolf Warrior MCLXXIII is a good influence on the country because of how schlocky it is.

Aren't there plenty of Chinese films that are straight up propoganda porn featuring the evil Japs raping Chinese women and the noble Chinaman murdering them all?