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Also, unpopular opinion about RDR2 specifically:
Micah is a shitty character. I honestly am not a huge fan of RDR2's story in general, it had my full attention the whole time, but it's (like someone else on here was saying recently) a classic example of gamers considering anything well-produced to be well-written, we accept rambling mediocrity as high art because we have no standards. But, Micah in particular is annoying to me because he's what I think of as a hate sink character, an antagonist written just to be as obnoxious as possible to make them annoying/hateable in a cheap way, regardless of if it contributes anything to them as a character, and it even drags the story down when Dutch is inexplicably obsessed with him. Would have been cooler, i think, if Micah had been more like a sly backstabber instead of just an outright tool. I could write a character that does nothing but kick puppies and people would hate it, but it would still be a shite villain.
See, Micah's over-the-top villainy is why I actually like. He's so cartoonishly evil, I can't take him seriously. He's hilarious.

The man has an almost pathological need to be a cunt even at the cost of his own self-preservation, and I find that really funny. Especially because he just gets away with it. He's such a goddamn retard that you think he would've gotten smeared across the road earlier in the game, but he didn't, and that's because the devs wrote themselves into a corner when creating him.

Which, if you believe the reason specified in the "Evil Hair leak" was one of the few things in it that was actually true, was a mindboggling, and catastrophic mistake to make because the alternative would've not only given us a much better character, it would've also been one that fit the overall story, and theme of the franchise so much more.
 
See, Micah's over-the-top villainy is why I actually like. He's so cartoonishly evil, I can't take him seriously. He's hilarious.

The man has an almost pathological need to be a cunt even at the cost of his own self-preservation, and I find that really funny. Especially because he just gets away with it. He's such a goddamn retard that you think he would've gotten smeared across the road earlier in the game, but he didn't, and that's because the devs wrote themselves into a corner when creating him.

Which, if you believe the reason specified in the "Evil Hair leak" was one of the few things in it that was actually true, was a mindboggling, and catastrophic mistake to make because the alternative would've not only given us a much better character, it would've also been one that fit the overall story, and theme of the franchise so much more.
I don't if this is true or not but the game would've been a lot better if they didn't cut that content, except for having Arthur as a bisexual.
 
I don't if this is true or not but the game would've been a lot better if they didn't cut that content, except for having Arthur as a bisexual.
Me neither, but only because I know Rockstar would've ruined the supposed would-be love interests, and because I don't think Arthur should've had a love interest in general.

The one he actually got is so boring, and annoying.
 
Me neither, but only because I know Rockstar would've ruined the supposed would-be love interests, and because I don't think Arthur should've had a love interest in general.

The one he actually got is so boring, and annoying.
I feel like it should've been like Gta sa or Gta 4 where you can find and date various women across the wild west that have a perk or benefit when you earn their trust to a certain level.
 
I feel like it should've been like Gta sa or Gta 4 where you can find and date various women across the wild west that have a perk or benefit when you earn their trust to a certain level.
See, I'm sure how that would even work considering Arthur's always moving around because of the gang. I think there should've been a friendship system within the gang where if you help/hang out with them more, they'd help you out with certain tasks, or give certain items.

An example would be if you're good friends with Charles, he'll help you with those annoying hunting requests that crazy taxidermist lady sends you.
 
See, Micah's over-the-top villainy is why I actually like. He's so cartoonishly evil, I can't take him seriously. He's hilarious.

The man has an almost pathological need to be a cunt even at the cost of his own self-preservation, and I find that really funny. Especially because he just gets away with it. He's such a goddamn retard that you think he would've gotten smeared across the road earlier in the game, but he didn't, and that's because the devs wrote themselves into a corner when creating him.

Which, if you believe the reason specified in the "Evil Hair leak" was one of the few things in it that was actually true, was a mindboggling, and catastrophic mistake to make because the alternative would've not only given us a much better character, it would've also been one that fit the overall story, and theme of the franchise so much more.
Some of the gameplay ones sound more plausible, some of them also sound great, but the guy lost me when got up to the Brood's more graphic and sadistic tendencies and said "I mightve been the reason this was cut off"

Its amusing to me how all of these random ex-company workers are always high enough on the ladder to be able to leak all of these im assuming top secret details right into any small timw forum they can find

Also reads like the sort of overambitious fanfiction stuff fans come up with after
the game's already out (6 different playable characters across two branched endings? A secret movie reward for 100% completion?)

Some of it also seems like it was just the dude fantasizing if you ask me:

"Arthur was supposed to be bisexual and he'd rawdog Charles! This was scrapped because gays are oppressed, obviously!"

"Sadie is being raped when you first meet her! I will proceed to graphically describe the entire scene frame by frame, BUT THANK GOD IT WAS REMOVED! Can you believe some playtesters thought it was hot!? Not me, of course...!"

Listen to me, i've had enough experiences with people like this to know that male feminist = predator in disguise

i'll give credit to some of the users in that forum, it wasn't long til someone called out most of the list as bs, but while some of the points *could* be real, the leaker seems unreliable to me
 
That would be a fun gameplay mechanic, but it would break their precious story of Arthur being a lovesick loser obsessed with one other woman.
I have no idea what he sees in Mary. They have no chemistry, and she just uses him to solve her problems. The game would be better without her.

Some of the gameplay ones sound more plausible, some of them also sound great, but the guy lost me when got up to the Brood's more graphic and sadistic tendencies and said "I mightve been the reason this was cut off"

Its amusing to me how all of these random ex-company workers are always high enough on the ladder to be able to leak all of these im assuming top secret details right into any small timw forum they can find

Also reads like the sort of overambitious fanfiction stuff fans come up with after
the game's already out (6 different playable characters across two branched endings? A secret movie reward for 100% completion?)

Some of it also seems like it was just the dude fantasizing if you ask me:

"Arthur was supposed to be bisexual and he'd rawdog Charles! This was scrapped because gays are oppressed, obviously!"

"Sadie is being raped when you first meet her! I will proceed to graphically describe the entire scene frame by frame, BUT THANK GOD IT WAS REMOVED! Can you believe some playtesters thought it was hot!? Not me, of course...!"

Listen to me, i've had enough experiences with people like this to know that male feminist = predator in disguise

i'll give credit to some of the users in that forum, it wasn't long til someone called out most of the list as bs, but while some of the points *could* be real, the leaker seems unreliable to me
To be fair, this allegedly leak came out just ten days after the game did, and somethings they mentioned (buying tickets to Guarma, more than two playable characters, etc) were actually found in the code. Still bullshit, but the Micah thing does make you wonder.

The other theory is that Micah's role was supposed to be for Javier, and they changed it because having a minority as a bad guy, even in a game full of other minorities who are good guys, would be bad, or whatever.

The evidence for this is Javier's sudden drastic character change from the first game to the second game, how he does almost nothing in RDR2, and how the way he's described in RDR1 (ie; a conniving, lecherous, violent douchebag who was loyal to Dutch until shit the fan), sounds suspiciously like Micah.

All this coupled with the fact that RDR2 is suspiciously overly protective of (most) minorities in the game make this theory is a lot more plausible imo.
 
Considering there was actually a huge mega leak before the game was even officially revealed, and most of that shit wasn't in it, I'm going to say that either a lot of that was cut off very very very early in production (like, before they even began work on the game), or it's probably bullshit based off the "playtesters didn't like Micah betraying the group so we made him extra super duper evil" which is just hilariously retarded.

Like, yeah, they made changes up to a month before release, but it wasn't because playtesters didn't like something. It was all because Dan didn't like stuff.
 
All this coupled with the fact that RDR2 is suspiciously overly protective of (most) minorities in the game make this theory is a lot more plausible imo.
I always ponder how this game would've turned out if it didn't release in "current year." Because I know in the first RDR, minorities were treated how you expected them to be treated in the early 20th century and you can actually kill Native Americans in the first game compared to RDR2 where they just disrespect you when you tried to greet them.
 
I have no idea what he sees in Mary. They have no chemistry, and she just uses him to solve her problems. The game would be better without her.


To be fair, this allegedly leak came out just ten days after the game did, and somethings they mentioned (buying tickets to Guarma, more than two playable characters, etc) were actually found in the code. Still bullshit, but the Micah thing does make you wonder.

The other theory is that Micah's role was supposed to be for Javier, and they changed it because having a minority as a bad guy, even in a game full of other minorities who are good guys, would be bad, or whatever.

The evidence for this is Javier's sudden drastic character change from the first game to the second game, how he does almost nothing in RDR2, and how the way he's described in RDR1 (ie; a conniving, lecherous, violent douchebag who was loyal to Dutch until shit the fan), sounds suspiciously like Micah.

All this coupled with the fact that RDR2 is suspiciously overly protective of (most) minorities in the game make this theory is a lot more plausible imo.

I'm not so sure. There's a camp encounter where Uncle flat tells Dutch to his face that he sees right through Dutch's "I'm a teacher" act and knows Dutch is just using the gang to his own ends.


Dutch didn't change. He was always manipulative and always a con man. Even John realized in the Epilogue when he's on a mission ans tells Sadie that maybe the façade came down and they saw what Dutch always was. And the irony is Agent Milton was right: Dutch took a bunch of lost souls needing something and convinced them he had a better way. But the reality was, he didn't and most of them were too needy to see the truth of the situation and the few people who did come close to it, he said were wrong. Dutch goes on and on about Evelyn Miller, but Lenny says he doesn't get what Dutch gets from those books. Dutch tells Lenny to keep reading. Lenny's a bright guy and literate, but Dutch slyly tells him he's wrong. On the mission to kill Angelo Bronte, Bill mentions the atrocities he's seen fighting Indians and Dutch right out says Bill is too stupid to understand what he's seen. In spite of that Bill was still loyal to Dutch because Bill wasn't all that bright and needed someone to guide him. Javier was loyal to Dutch because Dutch saved him once and tried to repay his kindness, despite Arthur (and presumably John) telling him otherwise.

In the Overlook camp, if you go to a few wrecked carts off to the side you'll find a draft of Dutch's speech he gives when they first get to Colter about losing Jenny and the Callander brothers. But he made it sound like it was spontaneous. Fast forward a bit and Sean gets his head canoed and Jack gets kidnapped. Dutch talks a big game about gping and getting Jack, but I'm convinced the only reason he did was because if he did nothing, the gang would have split right then and there. The gang was always a means to an end for Dutch. And I don't think all that talk of freedom and what America was supposed to be and all of that was anything except bluster. Dutch liked causing chaos. The only thing that ever acted as a brake was Hosea and once he was dead there was nothing to stop him from showing his true colors. Killing the old lady on Guarma, leaving John to hang at the prison, leaving Arthur to die in the oil fields, using Eagle Flies and not caring if he lived or died in the ambush or at the oil fields. And when he was ever called on it by Arthur he always fell back on his plan that nobody knew about, except Micah.

Micah fed into Dutch's ego. He had Hosea, then Arthur, both questioning his decisions, and Micah was able to step in and be the fair-haired boy. He said all the things Dutch wanted to hear and was able to say the failures of the gang were someone else's fault or there was a rat. It's why Dutch was going to let John hang after he was grabbed at the bank hold up in St. Denis. And it's why Dutch was so livid after Abigail said Dutch wasn't doing anything to spring him and Arthur and Sadie rescued him: they were questioning him and as a cover he had his plan, a plan only Micah was in on.

I also think Dutch wasn't as smart as we were led to believe. The Blackwater ferry job went south and a girl was shot, but what if it wasn't so much a rat as Dutch was just sloppy and that's how Milton and Ross get on to him? When they run into Arthur while he's fishing with Jack, he doesn't order the gang to pack up right then and there, but tells them to stay put. Then Cornwell tries to grab him in Valentine and only then does he move. Hosea begs him right from the beginning to go west, but Dutch refuses and makes them go east. Then further east into Lemoyne, where Dutch thinks he can play both the Braithwaites and Grays off of each other, but they end up using him to do their dirty work and leave penniless. He tries to schmooze Bronte who sees right through him and then sets him up at the trolley heist. The bank job was just Milton figuring out Dutch needs money for something and the only place in town with the amount of cash he needs is a bank and sits on it. And once Micah starts feeding info to Milton, he is just convinced it's Arthur who is being disloyal. It was only because of their abilities that the gang was able to escape time and again until they try to rob the Army train and Milton/Ross close the dragnet around him. Dutch escapes, but he realized that Arthur was right, Micah was the rat, and left a broken man.

It was only in the Epilogue when John goes up to kill Micah and meets with Dutch do we see Dutch finally deal with what Micah did to him and his gang. The charade might have gone on a bit longer had it not been for Micah, although I think eventually the wheels would have fallen off. There are a couple of times when Hosea intimates that he is dying, and without Hosea there is non one to keep Dutch's baser instincts in check. But when John shows up to kill Micah and Dutch reveals himself and John asks why Dutch is up there he says, "same reason as you". Micah misses it. Micah things Dutch is getting the band back together, but Dutch is up there to settle that particular score. Dutch could have killed Micah, taken the Blackwater money, and found his perfect life somewhere else, but chose to go back to chaos. It's the biggest reason I think that it didn't matter if John had stayed in Beecher's Hope or not. Micah was a dead man, Ross would have found the body, figured it was the remnants of the Van Der Lind Gang and started his manhunt.

Fast forward a few years and Javier has turned into a mean bastard. All the members of the gang, at least the gunslinger ones, could have been described as violent, manipulative, mean, horrible people, but Javier had no choice but to leave the US and the only place he could go was Mexico, a place he was not really welcome. So he had to live hard and be mean, meaner than he had to with the gang. He trusted Dutch and at the end had to have seen Arthur was right about him, but not before the events in Annesburg. And one day who shows up but John saying he was taking Javier in. His own brother, who had abandoned him. So it was no real surprise to see how an older Javier, who was once again betrayed by John (for taking aim at Dutch and siding with Arthur) flipped out.

Speaking of, the older Dutch is back to his old tricks of using the Indians. I have no doubt that they were the last few Wapitis and Dutch whipped them up by reminding them about what the Army did (but not mentioning his part in the whole affair), even if it isn't said. And Dutch has abandoned any pretense of not being out for himself and killing indiscriminately. The girl in the bank when he runs into John for example. He just blows her head off to make a point. It is only at the very end when there is literally nowhere left for Dutch to run that he make the confession that it is his nature to fight (not find somewhere away from authority and find a better way to live) and that he has the most important thing he will ever say to John which is after Dutch is gone, John's next because those government men need monsters to slay so they can justify their jobs, even if they have to invent them.
 
American Krogan's video on it was biased - in some parts he misrepresents things or gets petty - but his general point that RDR2 is libtarded is right. It says something that there's only one place on the map you can't even draw a gun and that it's the Indian reservation.

I think it's kind of interesting how Dutch is basically a Gilded Age version of a 1970s Leftist radical. I can't stand his character, though, because what it represents and the way he talks is so repulsive to me that even as a villain I want to avoid him.
 
Four other things I neglected to mention:
1) when you upgrade the camp, under amenities, you have to upgrade Dutch's tent before you can get something that matters like the fast travel map. Only after Dutch is living large do the other camp members' contributions increase. I could be reading into it, but it's like that's his priority.

2) When Arthur captures Kieran, Dutch says they feed those as need feeding, help those as need helping, and hang those as need hanging, but other than saving Sadie, they never actually help anyone. When it comes out that Arthur has been helping Rains Fall, Dutch accuses Arthur of going behind his back. And about the first thing Dutch does when they get to Horseshoe Overlook is send Strauss into town to set up his loansharking, something Arthur detests being the muscle for. Dutch says he's rather rob a bank, but he doesn't turn Strauss away.

3) When Arthur is captured by Colm O'Driscoll and escapes and makes his way back tp camp, why is Dutch and the others there and not hunting Arthur down and/or killing O'Driscolls by the dozens? It might be nothing, but the resolution of that mission bothered me.

4) Going back to the above point of Dutch sounding like a 70s liberal, I think its apt. Somehow he and Micah figure out Cornwell will be at Annesburg and he takes the opportunity to try to get Cornwell, who has been dogging him the whole game, to pay him to go away. He then bloviates about how Cornwell is all that is wrong with America before killing him. That really strikes me as close to the radicals in the 60s, especially the Bill Ayers bomb throwing kind. They all grew up in upper middle class America, detested America as it was, said stuff about changing it, committed some violence, and in the end they were just spoiled rich kids with chips on their shoulders. It reminds me of Dutch, who still carries a grudge about his father being killed in the Civil War, saying the right words to fools who believed him, and then sowed chaos just because he could, while having a Messiah complex.
 
@William Murderface
It's the biggest reason I think that it didn't matter if John had stayed in Beecher's Hope or not. Micah was a dead man, Ross would have found the body, figured it was the remnants of the Van Der Lind Gang and started his manhunt.
It didn't matter. Ross would have found John regardless. And the only reason he even killed John at the end was because the Governor, in a bid for re-election, swore to do something about crime and taking out the remnants of Dutches gang was the stunt to do it.

People miss that part because it was only said in the newspapers I think.
 
You're right. I meant from the whole standpoint of "revenge is a fool's game" and Arthur telling John "don't look back." Going back and rereading what I wrote, I missed making the point. It was supposed to tie into how Dutch said one thing and did the exact opposite. He told the gang members not to do stuff like murder in cold blood or engage in revenge, but when Bronte shows that Dutch isn't that bright by giving him an obvious set up at the trolley station, Dutch takes it personally and feeds Bronte to a gator. John questions him in front of everyone and I think that's the point where John has to go in Dutch's eyes. Of course, Dutch justifies it as covering their tracks and tying up loose ends, but it was always Dutch wanting payback.

But you're right about how it was Dutch, Bill, and Javier making trouble, the governor demanding Ross do something about it so he could get elected in the first place. And since they used John so the government wouldn't be making martyrs of Dutch, Bill, and Javier, and John was a loose end at the end...well, dead men tell no tales.
 
All this coupled with the fact that RDR2 is suspiciously overly protective of (most) minorities in the game make this theory is a lot more plausible imo.
They were shit-scared of actually portraying anything negative about minorities to the point they hamfisted in the KKK and only made two notable characters racist. One's Micah and the other was turned into a gay manchild. Everyone else is very, very, very strangely hands off about women and any form if minority. They all despise the south due to the confederacy and verbally drag it as often as possible. Nobody but Micah and Bill say a word about their Burger King Kids Club gang. They do this while being murderous parasites that are worse in many ways than the Lemoyne Raiders.

The gang's attitudes would be considered super liberal post the second world war let alone before the first in non-urban parts of the US.

Javier being totally different from one to two is purely because they realized that he was the stereotypical backstabbing greasy mexican and they'd be torn to ribbons for that portrayal. So they made him more handsome, extremely principled (until tested at all), and a freedom fighter that never fights for anyone but himself. I get why they changed him since he was a bit character you spend more time chasing than interacting with. It doesn't even matter if you kill him or not, he's just tossed off to the agents and that is that.
 
They were shit-scared of actually portraying anything negative about minorities to the point they hamfisted in the KKK and only made two notable characters racist. One's Micah and the other was turned into a gay manchild. Everyone else is very, very, very strangely hands off about women and any form if minority. They all despise the south due to the confederacy and verbally drag it as often as possible. Nobody but Micah and Bill say a word about their Burger King Kids Club gang. They do this while being murderous parasites that are worse in many ways than the Lemoyne Raiders.

The gang's attitudes would be considered super liberal post the second world war let alone before the first in non-urban parts of the US.

Javier being totally different from one to two is purely because they realized that he was the stereotypical backstabbing greasy mexican and they'd be torn to ribbons for that portrayal. So they made him more handsome, extremely principled (until tested at all), and a freedom fighter that never fights for anyone but himself. I get why they changed him since he was a bit character you spend more time chasing than interacting with. It doesn't even matter if you kill him or not, he's just tossed off to the agents and that is that.
The KKK being in it makes no fucking sense since they were extinct during the time the game takes place, and the variant depicted wouldn't come around till almost twenty years later.

To be blunt, I don't give a fuck if that gang's super progressive, and that makes no sense. It's a videogame, and it has bigger anachronisms running around like that sentient robot, and the KKK like I mentioned above. The gang being nice to minorities, and women is a non-issue. If anything, they point to the game taking place in alternate timeline where things are just different, or whatever. Micah being a shithead is fine because it's well, Micah, but Bill at least has reason because was in a war with them, so him being racist makes a little sense.

No, what gets me is Rockstar's worry about racism in addition to making them retcon Javier, made them also cut out really cool shit like what happened at Fort Riggs, and possibly an entire gang of Native Americans. I get why they wanted to portray Natives better than how they did in the first game, but come on. Let them do something instead of just being stuck at Wapiti all day, and spying on you from the edges of the map.
 
The Wapiti were just a plot device for Dutch to use and throw away. Rains Fall told them not to do anything, Eagle Flies grabs some braves and wants to go on the warpath in spite of his father, Dutch fans the flames, gives the Army the excuse to kick them off their land (and give the land to Cornwell to look for oil) and gets Eagle Flies killed in the process. Dutch's reaction? "I have a plan."

Having the Wapiti do anything besides be beat up on (or used by Dutch) defeats their entire purpose: tug at our heartstrings because they are being abused by the government and money men AND used by Dutch for his own ends.
 
The Wapiti were just a plot device for Dutch to use and throw away. Rains Fall told them not to do anything, Eagle Flies grabs some braves and wants to go on the warpath in spite of his father, Dutch fans the flames, gives the Army the excuse to kick them off their land (and give the land to Cornwell to look for oil) and gets Eagle Flies killed in the process. Dutch's reaction? "I have a plan."

Having the Wapiti do anything besides be beat up on (or used by Dutch) defeats their entire purpose: tug at our heartstrings because they are being abused by the government and money men AND used by Dutch for his own ends.
I'm gonna be honest. The Wapiti did not have to be in this game. The gang already caused enough problems for the Pinkertons to easily track them down without the need for them getting involved.

To be frank, if I was Native, I'd be pissed that a company claimed to be so afraid of being racist towards my people that they made us nothing more than a tool, and sob story for the White Man again.
 
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