Pokémon (Not-So) Griefing Thread - Scarlet and Violet Released with 10 Million Copies in First 3 Days in Buggy States

[Celebrate Nite]

which is funny because it's based on the sun, a fiery rock.

Fire/Rock with Levitate would actually be not that bad. It could be a sun-setter with solarbeam to take out the quad-water weakness it has and nuke everything else with the increased fire STAB. Just keep it away from fighting types (unless you gamble on a luck burn)

 

[Marche]

I already miss her so much.

View attachment 8766293

Shoulda went all in on Draonpult because that fucker is just gonna rape the meta just as hard for the next year

 

[Retarded Weeb]

Give Solrock a hidden ability like Steelworker or Rocky Payload that gives it Fire STAB.

 

[Computer God Autism]

Give Solrock a hidden ability like Steelworker or Rocky Payload that gives it Fire STAB.

Same for Lunatone but with Dark? I guess Fairy would be more appropriate with nu-mon

 

[Retarded Weeb]

Same for Lunatone but with Dark? I guess Fairy would be more appropriate with nu-mon

It is a bit confusing, since night in general is associated with Dark-type, but Fairy-type gets the full moon.

Somewhat related, Cresselia should have been turned into a Psychic/Fairy-type. It's both aesthetically fitting and lets it counter Darkrai so it's not a one-sided rivalry. But I'm guessing Game Freak was suffering from autism over the idea of retconning any aspects of legendary Pokemon.

 

[Grayback]

Gen 2 was designed to compliment gen 1's group. And adding things to catch unique to post game was part of the reward for beating the Elite 4.

This isn't an argument for the merits of how Game Freak spaced out the new Pokémon in Gen 2, it's just a restatement of how they did it.

There were other options for how they could've done it.
For example, they could've had the Gen 2 Pokémon throughout the main game and then have the Gen 1 Pokémon show up in the postgame—and then that could've just as easily been a "reward" for players who didn't have access to a Gen 1 game and another system to transfer Pokémon up to Gen 2 (and for any new players who hadn't played Gen 1). To new players, those "old" Pokémon would've been plenty new to them (and there are always lots of new players with each new generation—even before this had been established as a pattern, this is still exactly what Game Freak was hoping for with all of their advertising at the time). It also would've fit with the worldbuilding up to that point, instead of forcing people to explain why the new Pokémon mostly show up in the old region where they hadn't been (in the games' lore, or in our real life experience of the Gen 1 games) just a few years before.

If Gen 2 Pokémon had been all or most of what was available in Johto, then they would've provided novelty (in a new game, after all).
If Gen 2 Pokémon had been available alongside Gen 1 Pokémon, then they would've provided variety for both teambuilding and encounters.
If Gen 2 Pokémon had been more present in Johto, then they would've provided stronger worldbuilding to this new, separate region.
And I'm sure that there are even more arguments than what I'm thinking of now.

I don't want to argue entirely from novelty, since I think that people really overvalue just having novelty for novelty's sake, and novelty isn't everything—but novelty isn't worthless, either. I think that a lot of GSC players would've really liked to have caught and used a Houndour on their team instead of a Growlithe (again). Or to have at least had the option.
But Growlithe is the one found in the early-game routes in Johto, while Houndour is stuck on a single postgame route in Kanto, at very low encounter rates, and only at night. They weren't just restricting a lot of their content in the postgame, it really feels like they were hiding a lot of it, too. It's bizarre and frustrating.

Johto is full of gen 1 pokemon because they are the pokemon.

I understand this feeling, like the Kanto Pokémon were the common, default wildlife of the Pokémon world. But it seems like a post-hoc justification.
In Gen 1, those Pokémon were all that we had, so there was nothing to compare it to.
In Gen 2, Game Freak didn't have to use those Pokémon again, but because they did, we're left to try to come up with explanations for it.

Also, all of Gold & Silver's advertising emphasized the new Pokémon that there were for players to discover.

It wasn't a franchise where they shit out 100 new marketable creatures every year to see more toys.

The ads sure made it seem like that's exactly what they were doing. They kept repeating some version of "new games, new Pokémon" every time, making the two feel synonymous and building the expectation.
Gold & Silver ads showed pretty much exclusively Gen 2 Pokémon (aside from the inescapable Pikachu). They made it seem like this new region would have its own ecosystem of new Pokémon. I was pretty young at the time, but I remember that this was the impression that they were giving us.

For Game Freak to have actually hidden away so many of their new Pokémon in the postgame feels like a weird bait-and-switch.

Maybe it was meant to try to make the games more mysterious, to give kids hard-to-find new Pokémon that they didn't even know existed until they heard stories about about them, to try to force moments like the "there's a Mew under the truck" rumor. But if so, I think that they way overshot this mark.

If there were no new pokemon in the last 3rd of the game players would have been pissed off.

They still could've had a few new Gen 2 Pokémon show up in the later part of the game without restricting them from the earlier parts as severely as they did. Just space them out more evenly.
Honestly, I don't think that the later parts of games should have a ton of new Pokémon, because then you're wondering where this thing was for the last 7 badges, and why you should add it to your team over some other Pokémon that you've already built up a connection to. Just evolved forms of previously-encountered Pokémon would be fine toward the end of a game.

And as for restricting a generation's new Pokémon only to the postgame, in general, I think that's a terrible thing to do. For any generation.
- Postgame legendaries for you to go find? Sure.
- Extra postgame Pokémon from outside of this generation's pokédex, maybe from generations with hard-to-get Pokémon because of hardware scarcity / no remakes for them? A welcome addition.
- But run-of-the-mill Pokémon from a game's generation that would've been ordinary team members or memorable wild and trainer encounters, but now you can only find them after beating the league, making them complete footnotes to your journey, if not completely missable or forgettable? I don't like that. Postgame-exclusive normal-ass Pokémon encounters from that game's generation don't make me think, "ooh, good, extra content," it makes me think "wow, why couldn't we have had these before?" It feels like when a game releases with day-1 DLC, and it's obvious that the devs just held back some of the content that they'd made. There's not the same financial incentive in this case, but that just makes it feel dumber. Making their new generation feel smaller than it should've.

I'll concede that it's more difficult to say what the "postgame" really is in Gen 2, since Kanto had a whole second league for you to go through, so someone could say that stuff in Kanto is not technically postgame... but your journey through Johto still obviously seems like the main body of the game.

 

[The Cum Beast]

Yeah, Sinnoh, the northernmost, snowiest region in Pokemon doesn't have a lot of Fire Types.

The funniest thing about DP Sinnoh is that there's the same amount of ice type lines as there are fire type lines despite sinnoh being a snowy region. (chimchar and ponyta. Snover and sneasel). Even Hoenn, the tropical region had more ice types (Snorunt, spheal, and regice. Technically 4 fully evolved mons in the remakes since you're able to get froslass as well). I'm more concerned about the other design problems of DP personally like them being slower than RBY.

Also my personal headcanon is that DP and BDSP sinnoh takes place in a world where Team Magma/Aqua won and fucked up the climate and thus the biodiversity. Obviously from a game development prospective it's still awful.

Regarding the pokemon selection debate. I do think a good selection of pokemon is important but I also believe there shouldn't be too many. At most I think there should be just under or around 400 pokemon per regional dex, not too small, but also not overwhelming. The main fix for new pokemon being a small percentage of most modern dexes is to just overrepresent them, have most new pokemon lines be plentify throughout the game, while having old pokemon be limited to one or two areas. Imo, it's always better to overrepresent the new pokemon rather than underrepresent them, especially since the debut region is where most new pokemon shine. I'd honestly prefer this even if I personally dislike the new pokemon. I'd also be fine if all pokemon are TRANFERABLE into the game, but having ALL pokemon be in a single region is way too overwhelming.

I also think a regional dex can also help old pokemon shine as well if they're rare in their home region. For example, phanpy and venonat lines in SV.

 

[Disc]

Before I comment on the pokemon distribution, I will say that one of the problems Pokemon fan games, romhacks and even Pokeclones fall into is failing to grapple with the idea that there are a fucking massive number of fans, and despite the fact that large swathes have genuine issues with the games, which ones are most important to fix or even what those issues are isn't consistent. You can have literally millions of people calling for a game with A or B returned to it, you add it, and then get millions turning away because why the fuck would you add that of all things, that was where all the trouble started!

The Pokemon fandom is at such a critical mass that schizophrenia is essentially inevitable, and people will like the same core games for completely different reasons. As soon as you go beyond the most surface level tree-looks-bad tier of criticism, you're gonna find clashes of opinion in what is wrong and how to fix it. And this is probably a great example, because there's entirely different playstyles and game philosophies that are clashing here about the exact same design decisions.

Despite that, my opinion is the the objectively correct one and every person who disagrees gargles semen as their only form of sustenance.

Which is fine. An overabundance of choice is just false choice. You can say fifty is less constricting then eighteen or three, and sure, but then once fifty is achieved then people will be saying fifty is too restrictive and we need one hundred - and then proceed to only use the same ten mons they were using when there were only eighteen.

I agree with this heart and soul, and will throw my own hat in the ring.

To me, the Pokemon in a region are something that helps that region feel unique. If just about everything is available to the point I can build a 100% complete team by the first gym, I don't feel freed, I feel like I'm playing a hacked videogame that barely cares about immersion, and my team will likely calcify very early on. As long as the deck I'm given has multiple solutions to the most immediate problems, I don't care if that deck is 20 cards big or 50 cards big. Obviously there is a point where it becomes more of a burden to have a small roster, but some people only consider it not a burden if they're in the complete other extreme.

It can also play merry hell with the pacing. Putting 50 mons in before the first gym increases the chance of all of the following:
- Grinding for any pokemon I super-specifically want is now hell, because it's a 3% encounter in specifically the blue grass patch on route 404's left side
- It takes ages to feel like you're making any real progress because the game needs to space out the encounters to avoid point 1
- My first gym is now being done with evolved pokemon as a rule, rather than the exception, and we'll all be fully evolved before like gym 4
- Whatever the associated story is, it's gonna move like molasses, because they need to space it out ''''''''properly'''''''' and now we've got seventeen thousand cutscenes before the first gym.
- The game designers go from 'oh crap we've left no good places to grind evs, let's add an EV training shortcut zone' to 'oh crap there's an obvious early EV training shortcut zone, we need to make sure the boss is still challenging' to 'oh crap we have super challenging early boss fights, let's provide mechanics like iv and nature adjustment' and now the game expects me to grind out and fix up competitive tier pokemon just to progress the damn game.

Frankly, one of my biggest problems with fangames is that they have this really frustrating 'if I have the whole (X), I'm gonna use the whole (X)' mentality that makes them overstuffed and drag on out for way too long. I don't need literally every mechanic that's ever appeared in a mainline pokemon game to like your fangame, gdi. Do I like shadow pokemon? Sure. Do I need Shadow Pokemon, Gyms, Totem Pokemon, double battles, triple battles, rotation battles, sky battles, poffins, pokeblocks, pokemon contests, the battle frontier, the underground, literally every pokemon and form that's ever been and motherfucking pokemon musicals to think your game feels complete? No, obviously not. If you want to add that shit to the postgame, go ahead, but at least pretend you give a damn about making an actual experience rather than just dumping in literally all shit possible.

 

[Kofi Drinka]

But Growlithe is the one found in the early-game routes in Johto, while Houndour is stuck on a single postgame route in Kanto, at very low encounter rates, and only at night. They weren't just restricting a lot of their content in the postgame, it really feels like they were hiding a lot of it, too. It's bizarre and frustrating.

This is the era of Mortal Kombat secrets. Having a "dude I found a devil dog" pokemon that is hard to find has value as a playground rumour. The same way Mew rumours did. Video game secrets weren't immediately data mined the day of release and spoiled. You weren't meant to find everything and have the entire dex completed by a wiki you follow. The mystery has value and extra sales attached to it.

In Gen 2, Game Freak didn't have to use those Pokémon again, but because they did, we're left to try to come up with explanations for it.

They really did have to use those pokemon again. It's like making Sonic 2 have no Sonic in it. Tails is cool, but Sonic is a core part of Sonic. 250 creatures in a creature capturing game is a decent number.

They still could've had a few new Gen 2 Pokémon show up in the later part of the game without restricting them from the earlier parts as severely as they did. Just space them out more evenly.

Johto is full of new pokemon all over it. Every route except 2 has a Gen 2 pokemon you can catch there. If you include fishing then every route does. It might be a hoothoot or a Ledyba but it's still new. You also get access to more of Gen 1 that you wouldn't normally. There were rare pokemon like Lickitung, Taurus, Chansey you wouldn't have been able to get without Safari zone god RNG. There's pokemon your version might not have had in gen 1, so if you had only an Oddish a bell sprout is new to you.

I understand what you're saying but you're looking at this from a very different perspective than what the game was released in. Gen 1 hadn't gotten stale, people wanted more of them. Kids weren't 100%ing the pokedex in their gen 1 games. This isn't gen 10 where everything is every where and you can easily trade for it. Your marketing is going to advetise you have 100 new creatures to catch the same way Sonic 2's marketing advertised Tails a lot. But new features don't mean the old content is disposable and to be replaced. Doom 2 is just more doom with a few extras, Sonic 2 is just more Sonic with a few extras, Gen 2 is just gen 1 with a few extras. Generations didn't become a mass market shifting point until Gen 3 and even then they still tried to keep gen 1 (and kind of 2) in the spot light with the remakes.

 

[Grayback]

Give Solrock a hidden ability like Steelworker or Rocky Payload that gives it Fire STAB.

It is a totem of the sun.
Give it Drought. Or Mega Sol.

Lets use DP as example here: if you are going to fight against E4, which fire pokemon do you bring?

Guess what: A SINGLE FUCKING ONE Line, Ponyta/Rapidash, because the other literal one was the starter.

The funniest thing about DP Sinnoh is that there's the same amount of ice type lines as there are fire type lines

Obviously from a game development prospective it's still awful.

Nuclear take:
Despite being a mostly 1-to-1 remake, BDSP deserves less criticism because the games actually improve the availability of less-common types with the Grand Underground (which is accessible as soon as you reach Eterna City).
For some examples, this adds 3 new Ice-type lines and 1 new Fire-type line (2 in Shining Pearl) that you can use during the main story.

It also gives you access to most of the Pokémon that got cross-gen evolutions in Gen 4 during the main story (like Platinum did).

 

[Retarded Weeb]

The problem with DP's regional dex is that
1. They only put 150 Pokemon in it, for some reason. After RSE had 200, and GSC - if we discount the Kanto-exclusive Pokemon and ones you need to transfer from Gen 1 - had something like 180 to 200. Yeah, RBY had 150 but that quickly feels really limiting. Anything afterwords should have at least 200 or 250.
2. Despite have a more limiting number, they made some weird decisions as to what to put in there. Like using 5 slots on putting in the Wurmple line, a Pokemon just about no one is excited for, when they already had multiple fine new regional bugs with Kricketot, Burmy, and Combee.
3. Included in that point, they didn't even put in all the new Gen 4 Pokemon, and is the only regional dex not to have all its new Pokemon for that gen. A lot of the lines with new evolutions like Leafeon/Glaceon, Gallade, Froslass, Mamoswine, Magmortar, Electivire, and more are just plain not available until post-game. Most of Platinum's fix to the dex was just adding those in.

Just really baffling decisions with Sinnoh's available Pokemon.

Nuclear take:
Despite being a mostly 1-to-1 remake, BDSP deserves less criticism because the games actually improve the availability of less-common types with the Grand Underground (which is accessible as soon as you reach Eterna City).
For some examples, this adds 3 new Ice-type lines and 1 new Fire-type line (2 in Shining Pearl) that you can use during the main story.

I don't think they really deserve praise for putting a band-aid over a problem that shouldn't exist. Having to mess around with a side gimmick to catch Pokemon is way less organic than finding them normally in the wild and a lot of people won't bother. I mean, you can also look at how people rarely consider that HGSS made a lot of the Gen 2 Pokemon available much earlier because they require you fuck around with the Safari Zone. The HGSS Safari Zone at that.

 

[The Cum Beast]

Despite being a mostly 1-to-1 remake, BDSP deserves less criticism because the games actually improve the availability of less-common types with the Grand Underground (which is accessible as soon as you reach Eterna City).
For some examples, this adds 3 new Ice-type lines and 1 new Fire-type line (2 in Shining Pearl) that you can use during the main story.

I definitely agree that BDSP is at minimum better than DP, even if a lot of it is simply because it's a modern game. Both are still the bottom 2 pokemon games for me.

 

[Grayback]

Like using 5 slots on putting in the Wurmple line, a Pokemon just about no one is excited for

This is slander against Party Hat Wurmple.

 

[Nut-Roaster the 2nd]

I definitely agree that BDSP is at minimum better than DP, even if a lot of it is simply because it's a modern game. Both are still the bottom 2 pokemon games for me.

It just makes me wish Platinum was actually remade, rather than DP... That, and I never really got to play Platinum.

 

[Kofi Drinka]

Like using 5 slots on putting in the Wurmple line, a Pokemon just about no one is excited

I might be in the minority but I've always loved the butterfree clones. My team will almost always have one of them in a first play through. I used Beautifly in Gen 3 and Mothim in the latest games. I often use the regional pidgey clone because they're usually cool. Talonflame and the metal bird being the exceptions. There's cooler pokemon of those types. A normal/flying type fits most teams well, but I want a cool fire type not just a weird little bird.

I know a lot of people like the mid to late gamemons and the marketing focuses around them. But bugs are just cool designs to me. They're usually simple and not over designed.

 

[Registration]

>I'll concede that it's more difficult to say what the "postgame" really is in Gen 2, since Kanto had a whole second league for you to go through, so someone could say that stuff in Kanto is not technically postgame...

That isn't even the worst problem, Johto itself feels like it gives up after you beat Ecruteak city gym. You get a open map that isn't challenging anymore regardless of where do you go. This attempt to make yourself feel free is so bad that all you will find is lvl 26-33 until the victory road. It feels like the game completely gives up on all levels. Johto feels like an afterthought of an already bad region that is Kanto that gets even worse in gen 2. It literally took romhacks to fix it and make a good game out of Johto (Heart and Soul).

You can have literally millions of people calling for a game with A or B returned to it, you add it, and then get millions turning away because why the fuck would you add that of all things, that was where all the trouble started!

Not really, even more when most changes are just things that official pokemon games already did before years ago like physical/Special split attacks in earlier gen or reusable TMs.

It is quite rare for games to have new types of classification of moves or changing pokemon typing like feraligatr being dark/water or making luxray dark/electric.

It is much more common to give future movesets than create new moves from scratch. Most changes are based on the original games already.

It can also play merry hell with the pacing. Putting 50 mons in before the first gym increases the chance of all of the following:
- Grinding for any pokemon I super-specifically want is now hell, because it's a 3% encounter in specifically the blue grass patch on route 404's left side
- It takes ages to feel like you're making any real progress because the game needs to space out the encounters to avoid point 1
- My first gym is now being done with evolved pokemon as a rule, rather than the exception, and we'll all be fully evolved before like gym 4

And hacks/fan games already fixed this problem by making level scaling to the highest level of the gym leader, so when you get there, you dont overlevel and stomp the game, making you able to backtrack or do other stuff in the game. Play any game with level scaling and you will never want to play a game without ever again. Your curiosity will not impact the progress of the battles.

If just about everything is available to the point I can build a 100% complete team by the first gym, I don't feel freed, I feel like I'm playing a hacked videogame that barely cares about immersion, and my team will likely calcify very early on

So you feel free having to choose between 12 options or 30 or 40? Shit doesn't make sense. Even more when if presented in early game it is easier to box it and stop using it. The same thing that people do with their early pokemon bugs from gen 1-4 that were complete garbage. If you want to drop it early you can.

The thing is that no matter what you can only carry 6, but if you can only carry 6 and you have 12 as option instead of more, you were never freed, you were just feed the idea of freedom.

I'm gonna use the whole (X)' mentality that makes them overstuffed and drag on out for way too long. I don't need literally every mechanic that's ever appeared in a mainline pokemon game to like your fangame, gdi. Do I like shadow pokemon? Sure. Do I need Shadow Pokemon, Gyms, Totem Pokemon, double battles, triple battles, rotation battles, sky battles, poffins, pokeblocks, pokemon contests, the battle frontier, the underground, literally every pokemon and form that's ever been and motherfucking pokemon musicals to think your game feels complete? No, obviously not.

Most of this shit is optional content, you dont need to do it and even so the only game that I ever played that tried to have this much content that was dropped in other games is Unbound that is literally the best Pokemon game ever made so far.

Most hackroms and fangames aren't competent enough to put this much in their game after all.

This is the era of Mortal Kombat secrets.

Stop fucking lying, you talk as if there weren't guides being sold even before the games came out and gaming magazines weren't a thing.

Nintendo and other companies sold their licenses for it to be produced, this idea that it was a super secret shit is lame and gay and not true at all since you could buy a book with all the same info you would get from a wikia today the only difference is that someone was paid to do the guide and the reader paid for the book.

https://archive.org/details/PokemonGoldSilverAdventureGuideVersusBooks/mode/1up

Even the guide back then was pissed off that it took you so long for find the mythical dark type Pokemon lol

 

[The Cum Beast]

It just makes me wish Platinum was actually remade, rather than DP... That, and I never really got to play Platinum.

Please play it. The changes from DP to Platinum might on paper seem small, faster game engine, 50 or so extra pokemon, added ambiance and detail, but those changes really does wonders to the sinnoh experience.

Platinum might still be on the slower side, but it's nothing compared to DP levels of low. When I emulate DP at times 4 speed, it was still slower than platinum at regular speed. 50 Or so extra pokemon might not seem much especially nowadays, but when you consider most of the added mons are from lines that go new evolution it helps a lot with pokemon variaty even if the early game encounters stay largely the same. Other added pokemon include houndour line which is the first game (besides XD) where it's available early on, and absol which very much benefited from the physical special split. The slight changes to routes like eternal Forest's cloud ambiance makes the different routes more memorable.

Even disregarding the encounter table changes to basically ever route past the third gym, most NPCs use added pokemon which helps make random NPC fights less boring. There's even collector trainers who sometimes have a team of only platinum exclusive mons. Everyone knows how the elite four flint only had two fire types in DP, but even ignoring him, the steel type and ice type gym trainers actually use steel and ice type pokemon. The electric type gym leader also goes from only 2 electric types to a full team of electric types.

Personally, platinum took DP (which is my least favourite pokemon games of all time) and turned them into one of my favourites.

 

[Kofi Drinka]

And hacks/fan games already fixed this problem by making level scaling to the highest level of the gym leader, so when you get there, you dont overlevel and stomp the game, making you able to backtrack or do other stuff in the game. Play any game with level scaling and you will never want to play a game without ever again. Your curiosity will not impact the progress of the battles.

That's not fixing the problem. It's being an autistic faggot. Maybe I want to see how far I can go with a single magikarp and level caps fuck me over because an even level magikarp isn't beating a full gym.

So you feel free having to choose between 12 options or 30 or 40? Shit doesn't make sense.

It makes no sense because you're some weird autistic rom hack fan. If I have 2 choices I quickly pick which I want. If I have 100 choices I spend time picking between them, comparing which is better and wasting effort on it. It's more freeing to make a quick decision and getting on with the game than it is to having 500 pokemon thrown at me. It's basic human psychology. Too many options stunts decision making.

top fucking lying, you talk as if there weren't guides being sold even before the games came out and gaming magazines weren't a thing.

I was playing Gen 1 on release day. We were kids, we didn't get guides for all the games. The magazine guides were never complete, they were always split into 2 or 4 issues because they were so huge. I remember specifically me and my best friend both playing through Zelda LA. We got stuck and couldn't solve the seashell puzzles. The current magazine was only the first quarter of the game and we had to wait until the next issue came out to help us. There was a month between issues and we were deep into the game, so it may have even been 2 issues we had to wait for.

Things existing doesn't mean we had them. And it doesn't mean they were released in a timely fashion or even accurate. You can find plenty of bad info in those guides as well.

 

[Nut-Roaster the 2nd]

Nintendo and other companies sold their licenses for it to be produced, this idea that it was a super secret shit is lame and gay and not true at all since you could buy a book with all the same info you would get from a wikia today the only difference is that someone was paid to do the guide and the reader paid for the book.

Weird fact, but guide books were some of the best drawing references I ever got my hands on. It's why I used to snap-up a bunch when I was very young, especially Verses Books.

 

[Abella]

Shoulda went all in on Draonpult because that fucker is just gonna rape the meta just as hard for the next year

Dragapult went from middling to a menace to more fun in 2 rotations.