Pokémon (Not-So) Griefing Thread - Scarlet and Violet Released with 10 Million Copies in First 3 Days in Buggy States

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Iron Jugulis has some interesting ideas - most notably being the only Future Paradox with an entire LED face, and not just LED eyes, and most cool (but significantly less easy to see) is that fact that it's smaller heads are actually entirely detached from the main frame. But they don't come through in the design all that well.
Iron Moth is (obviously) one of my favourite Paradoxes. Taking the sun-moth, and envisioning it's future state by incorporating the solar panels of a space station, is just a brilliant idea.
 
Kari Kamiya said:
But who's his fucking dad? What a cop-out, fucking liars.
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I don’t know why they didn’t just show that his dad is basically an adult version of Ash, with whatever Ash wanted as his original starter as his Pokemon.

Because ‘dad is never here because he’s exactly like his son and is just off wandering with Pokemon’ explains literally everything.

Since B/W had Ash meet Giovanni and they didn’t know each other and therefore they couldn’t end on that twist.
 
The Ultimate Ramotith said:
Instead of relying on Let's Go mode, you engage in proper battles, but you are under the Bug-Catching Contes timer. If you fail, you have to battle all of the trainers all over again.
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First, I should remind that I was talking abou the Team Star bases, where you would have to battle 30 Pokémon wi the Let's Go Auto Battle feature in the actual games.
Also, I swapped Aqua Kick with Dive, since Meowscarada nd Skeledirge already los their signature moves during the conversion, meaning that Quaquaval would have been the only fully-evolved Paldean starter that had a signature move.

From what you can see, I am ainly focusing on the programming aspect of my demake, since that is the hardest part, plus I knew that many people woul demake the graphics and music.
The problem there is that, by this point, my development here is clearly a Kiwi Farms production. Even if I did not have that idea of putting the Kiwi Farms logo instead of the GameFreak logo, people can still find tha the hack comes from 'tha trolling Illuminati terfascist website that killed Byuu and molested Keffals'. I am actually not bothered by this, since th is, in th end, just a thought experimen that I might program one day. However, that means that any assets would have to be made 'in-house'.

Right now, I am not calling any volunteers, since I am not programming this thought experiment right now. Rather, I am bringing up any possible problems that may arise if I do start hacking fo rea life.
 
With the dust settled on Gen 7 and another new cat starter around, what do you guys think of Incineroar's design? I like it, but I'm biased to it since I love tigers as my fave animal and fire-types. The nominal proportion or bipedal issues don't bother me since I'd have to write off a ton of mons based on those two aspects alone. I only wish its hands and feet were more cat-like... but I've seen enough fan and even official art that seems to fix those issues and make them passable enough to look like catspaws in pokemon-style, even seen some fan art that makes it look quadruped just fine versus that atrocious gorilla run it had in the movie.

Thinking on it, I think a lot of nu-starters or 'fursuit' designs could be more enjoyble if they just had them walk/run or even posed like their animal inspirations. It hit me the overall designs aren't bad at all - many of them really are cool or fun - they just act too humanoid. Incineroar yes but also Inteleon, Chesnaught, even Greninja or non-starters like Obstagoon.
 
Mayor Cody Travers said:
With the dust settled on Gen 7 and another new cat starter around, what do you guys think of Incineroar's design?
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I've only disliked it more as time has gone on. A heel-wrester based on Tiger Mask is a fine and all idea, but this is by far and away the worst possible execution EVER. You not only put it on a starter- which is supposed to symbolize the generation and introduce the idea of Pokémon as your friendly pets to you with what's equivalent to a real-life dog (in that it's the most loyal, the best defender against attacks on you save for a gun, and friendly)- but you give it to the first cat starter ever. A wildly popular animal.
In a trio of starters that all evolve into representatives of circuses.
And the cat's a fire type
WOW, I WONDER WHAT WOULD FIT THIS CAT BEST.
HM. LET'S DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THAT AND MAKE IT LOOK MORE LIKE THE TROUPEMASTER THAN THE TIGER JUMPING THROUGH HIS RING OF FIRE. GREAT IDEA, TOTALLY NOT EXTREMELY OFF-PUTTING AT ALL.

I didn't even care for Litten on initial release, but as time has gone on i've come to greatly appreciate its clean and effective design. Red and black always look good together, and tying it in with a bomb-fuse tail as well as some yellow cat eyes that look like the center of a flame is a fucking genius way to express that this is a fire type without lazily slapping flames on it somewhere like they do with 70% of other fire types (especially the starters).
Litten also has a personality, but it's not so exaggerated as to overshadow potential for imagination. You can imagine a Litten as more docile, more cranky, more friendly, very easily. Sure, its design language and animations will probably prompt you to think of it in a shadier light- but that's not inherently bad and gives a very good idea of the species' general disposition. Just like Dark/Evil types are known for being underhanded and dirty while types like Electric tend to produce much more hyperactive designs, there's a very light application of humanity to this creature that helps flesh it out beyond looking good. Not to mention it easily foreshadows the final evolution's typing by making it pure Fire but giving it the general air of something Darker.

Torracat is already throwing some of this in the garbage. You can see in how its posed and how it moves that it's not as comfortable on four legs as it used to be, which is odd for what should surely be turning into some kind of sleek killer-cat type with an attitude. It also grows a nice tumor on its neck that acts as a cat bell- but it doesn't have any patterns on its fur mimicking a proper collar, so it doesn't fulfill the mimicry wholesale, and the way the bell is placed makes moving its head rather awkward if it just sits there as a result. This isn't a dealbreaker or anything, lots of middle stages have odd tidbits like this to differentiate them and show their growing pains, but it does make me a little more wary to the final result and the buff forearms really don't help. Why are they there. What is that.

And now we arrive at the travesty. The heartbreaker. THE ULTIMATE HEEL OF ITS OWN EVOLUTION LINE: INCINEROAAAAAARRRRR

I'll reiterate. Seriously, it's not a bad concept. Even if I hate this thing for all it stands for, everything it tossed away, everything it looks like: if this was a one-off or two-stage line in a regular dex, I'd probably be a LOT more friendly towards it. Probably still not friendly friendly, I'd like it at best, but I wouldn't be anywhere near this passionate about it.
It's the fact that it's attached to Litten, a STARTER, probably one of the only ones I actually, truly love, that makes me haaaate it.
Let's start with the actual design before anything else.

This thing looks fucking terrible.
1679795421833.png
To start with, those hands. THOSE HANDS. HOLY FUCK, WHAT ARE THOSE HANDS.
Most of the line before now has been relatively proportionate. Most of it has been realistically sound.
Those fucking hands look like someone stuck a nail up a human dick and glued five of those onto a palm.
Also, a reminder, this is a Smash render. This is actually Incineroar adjusted to be slightly more feasibly realistic.

Look at this official art.
1679795539378.png
Awful.
And the hands are just the fucking beginning: they're attached to a pair of thinner arms that taper out from the shoulders. Shoulders which now have big spikes of fur lining them to give the impression of a ripped shirt. A human accessory on a fucking cat- the first of a few.
Regardless of that, let's examine this torso further. It's an upside-down triangle that's very clearly trying to convey macho muscley abs, an extremely masculine trait, without going overboard. It even has dark lines to emphasize this and look somewhat like a six-pack, again without going overboard and making it a barafaggot's obviously-fetishistic wet dream (even if it wholly fails and 90% of its fanart is gay dudes jizzing it to its abs anyways. 'bout as subtle as Salazzle, really). It's also got the aforementioned "ripped sleeves" which segment the gross ashy-gray parts and the red, probably relating to it finally gaining a proper Dark typing and having that typing be conveyed through its color scheme as its "true evil bursts forth" or some pretentious shit like that. In less flowery terms, it's basically just the design going "hey this is dark-typed now let's convey that with a ripped shirt". The darkness is further emphasized by the rings going down its arms, which are also meant to signify that this is a fucking tiger.

Except it's not, because it is a man. It is a man in a fursuit wearing a ripped shirt and a belt. It has a flaming belt that cuts off its grey part from its (very small) pair of legs, which still look rather cat-like (especially in comparison to those fucking fingers), and don't even have the same amount of digits as its forelegs anymore. It has stylized sideburns in the form of three poofy spikes down the sides of its cheeks and it has very bushy eyebrows signified by them now being their own little hair-spikes above the eyes (worth noting that this is not actually a bad idea and I really like it, it just adds to the humanity of it all). It even has gray irises, which no fucking cat can physically ever have, surrounding its yellow sclera to make it appear more like a human instead of like A CAT. They're a little hard to see in the official art, especially as a jpg, but here's a closer look of its Dream World art to really show what I mean.
1679796015073.png

Actually, let's zoom out. Let's look at this image completely.
1679796035305.png
Look at this pose. This is a human pose. This is a pose that states "I am cool and confident, and will fuck you up if you cross me." This is very human behavior that is not shared by any other species as far as I know.
This is applied to a design with a human jawline, at least two pieces of human clothing (arguably more if you count the mask pattern, but I think that's getting petty), human hands. It furthers the awful uncanniness of this fucking tragedy.

Here's a fun fact. Snivy actually had a very similar pose in the vanilla Black and White games. As part of its idle poses, it would cross its arms and stick up its snout.
This was changed in the sequels to be it brushing itself off instead. Something far more animalistic that still conveys its stuck-up nature well. None of its evolutions or other animations continued this trend of human behavior, either, and most Pokémon are generally assumed to be like that. Animalistic. Pets. Friends. They are your dog or your cat. They eat kibble and they can't speak.
They are not 5' tall wrestler men who gloat about how evil they are and spend their time following 10 year old kids around as "their masters".

AND HEY, WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT, THEY GAVE IT A FLAMING BELT. ALL THAT SUBTLE CONVEYANCE OF ITS TYPING WAS TOO MUCH EFFORT, I GUESS, AND THEY JUST SLAPPED SOME FLAMES ON IT ONCE AGAIN SO THAT PEOPLE WOULD REMEMBER THAT THIS THING BREATHES FIRE. GREAT.

Ugh, I'm getting off-topic. The long and short of it is: fuck this design. It threw away everything good Litten had going for it (subtle conveyance of its typing, hints at a greater personality with room for interpretation, a very simple and clean design that isn't cluttered with human-like objects or fancy patterns beyond what it needs to convey its typing, a house-cat/tiger hybrid that leaned on the former with hints of the latter, pleasant colors) for a shitty wrestler schtick that is questionable at best and extremely fucking creepy at worst. It is probably the first Pokémon I've ever truly hated and that hate has only grown more pronounced with time.

I haven't even talked about how it looks so obviously like a fighting type and yet it's dark anyways (I realize it's dark because of its heel elements; I just mean that most people won't catch onto that, and most "clothes with muscles"-type designs are fighting, so it's confusing), the fact that it runs like a fucking gorilla instead of like a CAT (mainly because I can't find the gif), how it's arguably patient 0 for this really uncomfortable "starters as characters" trend that is never going to die (because it's been explicitly stated as the goal from the series' developers) and has produced the worst trio of starters in the series back to back to back for over 5 years straight now, alongside the fact that this philosophy is seeping out into more and more and more designs that aren't starters over time because making Planets of Hats is far easier than taking time to think of anything as a diverse whole with almost no consistent mindset, aaaany of that.
This is like surface-level ranting. Surface-level.

I'll take my top hats now, I don't care lol. Fuck Incineroar and fuck the fact that I spent half an hour still seething over Incineroar half a decade after its release.
God I miss when I liked most of this series' designs by default. (:_(
 
UnsufficentBoobage said:
Counterpoint: that instantly forgettable electric anthro cat "legendary" (can not recall the name) is worse
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Anthrocat is
-much harder to obtain
-still has a cat's face and can look non-human if you squint really really hard
-has some genuinely interesting aspects that aren't executed in the absolute worst way they could've been even if they got close (a tail that looks like a scarf, GREAT BIG MEATY CLAWS that shoot lightning (seriously how was this not done before then), better colors)
-dogshit on its own merits and doesn't ruin something genuinely great merely by existing
That third point alone would make the blow of Incineroar much softer and yet the "cat" couldn't even do that to save its life
Besides, anthrocat is literally only liked by furries, it was such blatant bait that it didn't even catch on outside of that insular hive of degeneracy like Incineroar did
 
Mayor Cody Travers said:
With the dust settled on Gen 7 and another new cat starter around, what do you guys think of Incineroar's design? I like it, but I'm biased to it since I love tigers as my fave animal and fire-types. The nominal proportion or bipedal issues don't bother me since I'd have to write off a ton of mons based on those two aspects alone. I only wish its hands and feet were more cat-like... but I've seen enough fan and even official art that seems to fix those issues and make them passable enough to look like catspaws in pokemon-style, even seen some fan art that makes it look quadruped just fine versus that atrocious gorilla run it had in the movie.

Thinking on it, I think a lot of nu-starters or 'fursuit' designs could be more enjoyble if they just had them walk/run or even posed like their animal inspirations. It hit me the overall designs aren't bad at all - many of them really are cool or fun - they just act too humanoid. Incineroar yes but also Inteleon, Chesnaught, even Greninja or non-starters like Obstagoon.
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When the design for it leaked I hated it (and the rest of the gen 7 starter evo designs). I had my hopes up that Litten's final evo would be similar to this:
1679801637966.jpg

And was not happy to see the leaked art revealing Incineroar would be another bipedal fire starter final evolution.

That said, after a while I got used to it. Tigers are one of my favorite animals, I enjoy wrestling, and I had already settled on choosing Litten when the games came out (mainly because I'm a cat person), so I figured no sense in hating the design too much since I was going to end up with one anyway. I also like that it's a reference to Tiger Mask.

Two other things helped warm me up to Incineroar:

-It became my main in Smash Bros. Ultimate
-Gen 7 would end up becoming my favorite generation, as a result I have an affinity for every design from that gen, even the weaker ones.

@Anonitolia raises some good points, but for the reasons listed above, Incineroar, despite all its flaws, has become a personal favorite (although I still would have preferred for it to have turned out to be quadrupedal). Maybe something like this:
1679801516396.jpg
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Did the fact that Incineroar had Intimidate as a Hidden Ability, which made it meta in VGC for years, play a part as to why some people dislike it?
 
Sundae said:
Maybe something like this:
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okay, actually, here's something else I have to comment on

Incineroar seems to be the first of many of Gamefreak's attempts at subverting obvious yet good ideas (at least regarding starters) for the sake of originality
I might be projecting extremely hard, I might not- regardless, the "fire tiger with its own flaming hoop" thing is EXTREMELY obvious and works very well (it also complements Popplio's... initially clown-like theming and makes it fit better into the trio). And yet Gamefreak went a different route.
This can also be applied to Sprigatito turning into a Puss in Boots sort of figure, Rillaboom beating on its chest as a drum, and arguably Popplio becoming a juggling clown instead of the weird selkie Primarina ended up being.

And it creates this weird tonal clash, because they're still doing really obvious ideas for the starters at the same time as they're trying to subvert expectations. Maybe less-so, but Rowlet being a Robin Hood was basically guaranteed after Dartrix and Scorbunny's final destination is screamed at you so loudly it's part of its first stage's fucking name. So why are these super obvious ideas alright but the others aren't?
God knows. It just adds to the cluttering-up of Pokémon's overall identity, which I truly believe doesn't exist by now.

A lot of these fanmade ideas are very boring in execution. They take the concept quite literally and slap a few patterns on it just to make it look more "final". They don't think much about the design and instead focus on getting the idea across first and foremost instead of letting it take a backseat like a lot of official designs (at least used to) do. That first picture is a very good example of this. Why does it have Litten's back pattern going down the sides of its stomach area? Why are its stripes now arrows? How do those yellow claws work; are they floating there and constantly breathing fire, or part of the actual cat? And why is there a bowtie on the end of its tail?
I hesitate to even call them better than Incineroar- at least Incineroar has SOME cohesion, and gets its theme across in a more in-depth way than "we put a firey circle around a big cat and called it a day"- but the vast, VAST majority are far more appealing on a base level without thinking too deeply about design language.

Almost all of them look like animals. They are animals first and foremost with animalistic behaviors and design. The only human-like aspect is the cultural element the design is based off of, which can easily be given explanation otherwise and never overshadows the animal part of the design.

Meanwhile you look at the second picture you posted and you see a clearly-human jawline with a semi-human facial structure slapped onto a cat with weird proportions and a mane that starts above where its neck should be.
 
The Ultimate Ramotith said:
Oh! Are we posting fixed Incineroar now?

View attachment 4886254
> more of a Cheshire Cat/chinese guardian vibe than Tony the Tiger

daftpatience.tumblr.com

Andréa S

Please fix incineroar i tried to iterate on torracat’s design in a clearer way
daftpatience.tumblr.com daftpatience.tumblr.com
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this doesn't look like a final stage and the orb is questionable but holy fuck this would be a nice Torracat
I'm also going to be a bit of a hypocrite here and say that flame tail looks good (even if it's overused), but that's mainly because I'm a sucker for tiki torches and that shit would fit Alola PERFECTLY.
We don't have enough mean and grumpy cats in the franchise so I wouldn't mind this too much.

Seriously Gamefreak, give us more Puruglies. We need more grumpy fat cats in this franchise and you should be ashamed for missing this opportunity so constantly. Even the wackier cats like Perrserker don't land on that vibe, so get on that Purugly replication STAT.
 
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I am too lazy to post more thoughts than I did on Incineroar but I specfically saved these way back seeing them on twitter, and this is a great example of what I mean on just changing up the posing at the very least, since I think these change up anatomy even less - if it's changed at all - than what Sundae posted. It made me realize Incineroar had a LOT of design similarities to previous evos.

To also show what I mean for nu-mons in general just needing to act like animals again if nothing else, this is a 'Hoennean' Obstagoon I saw but realized the only thing different besides color scheme was... nothing, it's on all fours.
 

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