Naruto/Boruto Griefing Thread

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Being reminded of my old posts just causes me to criticize Naruto even more. Holy fuck.
You're not the only one.
In the back of my mind, I never liked Naruto. I only start watching/reading because of Rock Lee.

The whole "People will eventually like me" and the "You're only good if you are 'useful'" shit always rubbed me the wrong way.
 
You're not the only one.
In the back of my mind, I never liked Naruto. I only start watching/reading because of Rock Lee.

The whole "People will eventually like me" and the "You're only good if you are 'useful'" shit always rubbed me the wrong way.
It leaves a bad taste in people's mouths and is blatantly cynical. We're pretty cynical at our worst, but goddammit, we need uplifting shit too. Too bad Naruto is just so hokey that it circles back to being cynical in the worst way possible.
 
Because of all the retcons, Kishi accidentally made a story with a terrible message.
Neji was right, only those genetically blessed and favored by destiny will ever amount to anything. Sub-humans like Rock Lee will always be fodder.
 
Because of all the retcons, Kishi accidentally made a story with a terrible message.
Neji was right, only those genetically blessed and favored by destiny will ever amount to anything. Sub-humans like Rock Lee will always be fodder.
And the defenders keep hitting you with "it's about overcoming hatred". Dude, what?! The stretch is palpable.
 
You're not the only one.
In the back of my mind, I never liked Naruto. I only start watching/reading because of Rock Lee.

The whole "People will eventually like me" and the "You're only good if you are 'useful'" shit always rubbed me the wrong way.
It leaves a bad taste in people's mouths and is blatantly cynical. We're pretty cynical at our worst, but goddammit, we need uplifting shit too. Too bad Naruto is just so hokey that it circles back to being cynical in the worst way possible.
Indeed it is cynical. Maybe kids need to know those things but they need counterpoints too. That is why you need to check for interpretations in your work.

Because of all the retcons, Kishi accidentally made a story with a terrible message.
Neji was right, only those genetically blessed and favored by destiny will ever amount to anything. Sub-humans like Rock Lee will always be fodder.
Retcons should be done with a scalpel, not an axe. The story needed minor adjustments to have no such problems.

And the defenders keep hitting you with "it's about overcoming hatred". Dude, what?! The stretch is palpable.
"Overcoming hatred" is merely the theme Kishi butchered the least. Stories can have many themes and Naruto betrayed most of them.
 
Is it just me, or are a lot of the "pro-uchiha" people that I've on tumblr dedicated to supporting Palestine? Is this a coincidence ((I believe most of tumblr supports Palestine)), or is there a connection between the two positions?
 
Indeed it is cynical. Maybe kids need to know those things but they need counterpoints too. That is why you need to check for interpretations in your work.


Retcons should be done with a scalpel, not an axe. The story needed minor adjustments to have no such problems.


"Overcoming hatred" is merely the theme Kishi butchered the least. Stories can have many themes and Naruto betrayed most of them.
LMAO! Fascist Kirk disagreed with you. Dude's whole schtick is making socks.
 
Is it just me, or are a lot of the "pro-uchiha" people that I've on tumblr dedicated to supporting Palestine? Is this a coincidence ((I believe most of tumblr supports Palestine)), or is there a connection between the two positions?
They are pro-anything considered marginalised (regardless of historical context). Even pro-pedo. Pay no attention, they hold no actual beliefs. They have activist complex.

On a different note:


I know that Danzo was retconned into the story BUT I think I can justify him staying low until Shippuden. In my opinion, Danzo had too many rivals for the throne to act and getting the Hokage position would place a giant target on his back.

Here is why:

Tsunade: While she was in her exile, she still commanded respect through her name and achievements in the medical and combat fields. If they came into disagreements, Danzo was bound to run out of too many mooks and eyes.

Jiraiya: As long as Jiraiya was in the picture no one considered Danzo a serious candidate. Everyone would prefer him. He would have even more influence than Tsunade and about the same level of power and skill. Danzo could not justify making any open move on him especially since he could not guarantee his mooks would get the job done.

Itachi: This one is obvious. If he got the Hokage position, Itachi would assume something is up and would prioritize killing him immediately. He could even get the rest of the Akatsuki to join him as well under the pretext of Konoha having too many powerful ninja (which is so obviously true that no one would question ganging up on the village).

Pain: Nagato and Ame were those screwed over the most by Danzo. Making himself Hokage while a demigod who does not go down until the world's supply of corpses runs out is a death sentence. All his men would be pushed aside and interrogated by someone who can read memories to ensure they know everyone of his hideouts. He would be forced to spend all his life on the run.

Orochimaru: This one is a bit of a dark horse but hear me out. Orochimaru can possess people, mimic them and infiltrate anywhere. If Danzo were to become Hokage, Orochimaru would have every reason to try and possess him. He would get all the Sharingan and Hashirama Cells he could ever dream off as well as the labs and the jutsu in Danzo's possession. Danzo would be more valuable to him than any Uchiha or Senju ever was and that would be reason enough to go after him harder than anyone else. Danzo would spend his days even more paranoid than ever. His mooks could be Orochimaru, his servants, his neighbors, his enemies, his colleagues, anyone. All he would need to do is drink the wrong coffee one day and he would be Orochimaru. Add Kabuto in the equation and you get a recipe for many sleepless nights. And that is without mentioning Orochimaru's other mooks. Danzo would be fucked.

There is one silver lining though: Kotoamatsukami. This jutsu can be the best escape plan ever if used correctly. He can get on everyone's good side with that. Unfortunately, it comes with drawbacks and he knows it. It spends chakra like a bitch, it has massive cooldowns (though even that can be mitigated with Hashirama Cells but even that does not fix things), it can be too subtle to make an actual difference and if the victim notices the manipulation and gets angry, the jutsu is merely a suggestion. And let us not forget, Danzo is not an Uchiha which mean that Kotoamatsukami is weaker and costlier in his hands no matter what. If he tried to use the jutsu while he had many powerful enemies in Konoha, he would have to spam it and as we said, that is not an option.

Danzo would never act while those people are alive and kicking. He is a coward at heart. When Tobirama told his elites that one of them would be sacrificed, he was crying about how he was too important (even when he was surrounded by his equals and superior). Cowardice disguised as importance.

Also, this:


I have mixed feelings on this. One the one hand, his editor was amazing with his ideas and points. On the other hand, Kishi lacks writing discipline rather than good editors. After so long he would be expected to take off the training wheels. That is not the issue here. The issue is that he adds every idea that comes to mind even if it contradicts pre established lore or theming. He should have said "STOP! Does this contradict what has been established? Let me check..." and then he should find an explanation of how it fits. We live in the era of Google and the Wiki. You can check those. Also, introducing new characters when old ones that could serve the same role are still available makes the story clattered with scraps of potential. All in all, it was not just the editor leaving that caused Kishi to become worse. It was him not catching bad writing habits early and nipping them in the bud that ultimately hurt Naruto the most. Kishi was still learning but he failed to see it.
 
Is it just me, or are a lot of the "pro-uchiha" people that I've on tumblr dedicated to supporting Palestine? Is this a coincidence ((I believe most of tumblr supports Palestine)), or is there a connection between the two positions?
They want to be seen as the "victim" even though they cause the most problems
 
Is it just me, or are a lot of the "pro-uchiha" people that I've on tumblr dedicated to supporting Palestine? Is this a coincidence ((I believe most of tumblr supports Palestine)), or is there a connection between the two positions?
Fujos are typically weirdo lib types who are into that sort of activism. I mean, r/NarutoFanfiction literally has the homo flag as their banner.

Speaking of, probably an odd topic to bring up but do we get any insight on how gays and trannies are viewed in the universe? Fujos headcanon that they're ultra progressive about it, but the topic is rarely ever broached and is usually played off as a joke (like Sasuke Naruto kiss) with the characters being weirded out or disgusted. The closest I could find is this.

 
Fujos are typically weirdo lib types who are into that sort of activism. I mean, r/NarutoFanfiction literally has the homo flag as their banner.

Speaking of, probably an odd topic to bring up but do we get any insight on how gays and trannies are viewed in the universe? Fujos headcanon that they're ultra progressive about it, but the topic is rarely ever broached and is usually played off as a joke (like Sasuke Naruto kiss) with the characters being weirded out or disgusted. The closest I could find is this.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=cnHGc49JssI
It is brainrot. They are gay hammers that see everyone as gay nails. Also, by everyone they mean just Reddit and Tumblr. Because there is no world outside of their echochambers.
 

Naruto not being an underdog isn't a problem at the end of the day everything comes down to execution but what causes issues for the series is the contradictory elements of Naruto story. Mainly while Naruto is not an underdog the story frames him as one and that causes thematic conflict. And it's why until now with have constant arguments about whether or not Naruto was an underdog, when you convey contradictory things your audience will have contradictory interpretations.

Firstly, let's explain why Naruto isn't a underdog even in part 1.

  • He has the Nine Tails which gives him lots of chakra and protects him in battle
  • He is a Uzumaki which also gives him a lots of charka
  • His was able to learn high level techniques in days or weeks like the shadow clone jutsu or resengan
  • His able to get training from powerful teachers like Jiraiya due to connections
  • He was destined to gain the power that could save or destroy the world
So how does the story treat Naruto like an underdog. Well many characters in the story treat him like his untalented and useless and won't achieve anything:

  • Even in Part 2 Naruto is compared to the six sage son who was not talented and had to relay on others for help
  • The bridge builder: A Hokage is powerful and wise, you are puny and weak.
  • Lee in the Chunin exams states that Naruto is a underdog like him saying that it would be a good thing if he beat Neji proven that failures can beat genius
  • In the Neji match Naruto is called a failure
  • After beating ninja Naruto says that his clone justu was his worst implying that he improved it with practice not because he was also a genius
  • Tsunade calls out Jiraiya for putting false hope in Naruto that he could be a powerful ninja or master resangan
  • Orochimura: Trust me, I've always had a good eye for talent with that one all I see is insipid mediocrity
  • Everyone who called him and useless and stated that he didn't have talent
  • He was constantly contrasted against geniuses like Neji and Sasuke
Now people like to say that Naruto was an underdog because he was an outcast. However being an outcast is not the same thing as being an underdog. An outcast is someone who is rejected because of who they are, while an underdog is someone who is innately less talented and a lower chance of winning compared to his more talented competitors, they may be some overlap but their not the same thing. Say there's an guy who because his ugly is rejected by everybody thus his an outcast however his able to master instruments in days because of his talent is he a underdog? No, because despite his suffering his still talented and has an innate advantage compared to his competitors that doesn't mean he didn't suffer but his an outcast not an underdog. If you want another example look at Gaara, he was treated poorly by his village but his not treated as an underdog. Why? Because that doesn't change the fact that his very talented due to his sand ability. Furthermore, just because the nine tails made Naruto life hell doesn't change the fact that it gave him a mass amount of charka, something can be a disadvantaged but at the same time be a privileged.

Also Kishimato did a very POOR job of portraying Naruto as a social underdog. We are TOLD that Naruto was mistreated in the past but we are never really shown it in the manga itself. The hatred he gets is only present in the beginning of the story and then slowly goes away. We never really get to see the villagers mistreating Naruto once he becomes a gennin. Where is the random villager / waiter who spits in Naruto's ramen? There's a reason why people viewed Naruto in part one as a underdog and not an outcast and that's because that's the thing Kishimato put emphasis on.

But people didn't know about the nine tails or his Uzumaki linage

That makes it worse. Why is Kishimato constantly having characters treat Naruto as if his a useless failure when it pretty clear that the nine tails gives him lots of potential and it's clear his not a underdog when his able to master high level justus at a young age? It's redundant. Plus, the moment Naruto saved the village during the sand attack or mastered the shadow clone justu he should have not been treated like an underdog anymore.

But Naruto couldn't control his charka due to the nine tails

That makes Naruto a late bloomer not an underdog. He had potential but he was limited but when he got the required help then he became powerful, it's just that compared to Sasuke and Gaarra his potential just didn't show immediately.

But Naruto worked hard

I'm not trying to downplay how hard Naruto worked he definitely did train an lot but so did Sasuke and Neji, plus Naruto had innate advantages when it came to getting stronger thus he didn't get as strong as he is with hard work alone. If any other ninja had worked just as hard or even harder than Naruto they wouldn't be as strong as he was because they don't have his gifts (e.g. Rock Lee)

Hard Work vs Talent wasn't that big of a theme in Naruto

  • That doesn't excuse the fact that it was poorly written it was handled awfully even if it was a small theme.
  • All the themes in your story should work together if you have a theme that gets contradicted by other themes you shouldn't included it in your story.
  • Hard Work vs Talent is a theme that's going to resonate with viewers more than abstract concepts like 'The Cycle of Hatred' since Hard Work vs Talent is personal and more relatable.
Also Naruto being an underdog is backed up by the author, so people weren't making it up:

Masashi Kishimoto: My childhood wasn't all that happy. It may have sounded like it was all good in my journal entries in the manga volumes, but that was in order to make it interesting for the readers. Like any person, I've had hardships in my life. I was not the centre of anyone's attention in school, rather sitting on the outskirts. I didn't do well in everything. I didn't excel in studies nor sports. So I can understand Naruto's feelings of being an underdog. I don't really like people who are too perfect. [laughs]

Thus, the issue comes from the fact that Naruto tells us one thing but shows us another.
In other words, Naruto is just Kishimoto's ultimate power fantasy of himself. It's just that a lot of losers and social outcasts clung to the story out of the same sentiment.

"I'm a loser, but I'm secretly special."

Even Plague of Gripes pointed this out in his Gohan's Masks video. Kids are vain and egotistical creatures compared to most adults, and they ate up Naruto because it appealed to their ultimate fantasy - to be secretly special.

Let's put it another way. Kishimoto wished that he was the one that was perfect. So that he could show to everyone and himself that he was special all along. In this context, him using Sasuke as an analogy for his brother makes this worse.
 
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In other words, Naruto is just Kishimoto's ultimate power fantasy of himself. It's just that a lot of losers and social outcasts clung to the story out of the same sentiment.

"I'm a loser, but I'm secretly special."

Even Plague of Gripes pointed this out in his Gohan's Masks video. Kids are vain and egotistical creatures compared to most adults, and they ate up Naruto because it appealed to their ultimate fantasy - to be secretly special.

Let's put it another way. Kishimoto wished that he was the one that was perfect. So that he could show to everyone and himself that he was special all along. In this context, him using Sasuke as an analogy for his brother makes this worse.
I think that Naruto could have remained somewhat of an underdog by his lack of parents. Every other kid had their parents to help them learn jutsu. Naruto had no one. He was behind everyone for that reason. There, I explained Naruto's underdog status early in the series without retconning or contradicting later chapters. Hell, you can have a character observe that Naruto is actually talented but was held back due to lacking a proper teacher. Uruka was a good man and a good teacher but he had to teach an entire class, he had no time or energy for tutoring Naruto. Kishimoto got the "Hard Work vs Talent" from Dragonball without understanding the nuance behind it implementation. Goku was not born as strong as Vegeta but he worked to achieve what he did. He grew at an amazing speed too.

That is what Kishimoto missed: he made Naruto a Goku copy ignoring that Goku was not actually talentless. Vegeta and Frieza just had a very flawed measuring system that did not account for techniques, training and growth beyond the absolute necessary and were blindsided. Kishimoto forgot how flawed that system is and pretended that it made sense. The power level system was used because Frieza was born super strong and had no need nor reason to train and get stronger which is why it was not encouraged to train all that much within the army. What I am getting at is that Naruto should not have been dismissed like that in a world that does train a whole lot more than Frieza and Vegeta did. Also important to note is that Goku was treated as a low class warrior for one saga only. While hard work was always important for his character, only Vegeta was pointing out that Goku was "talentless". Every other saga, while his opponents were underestimating him, they did not fully dismiss him either. Blue was still given a good fight, Tao won once but was still forced to use Dodonpa, Tien was proud and arrogant of his own skills due to Crane, Piccolo was stronger than anyone at the time so it hardly made a difference, Frieza dismisses Saiyans on principle, Dr Gero made uberpowerful Androids just to be on the safe side, and Babidi was unsure of what to expect as he had been hiding all this time.

Kishi should have never made talent and hard work fight as that is harder and harder to make it work on a long series. The main character will have to discover a talent. Talent and hard work go together in the end. I mean, what would Naruto do if he was REALLY talentless and fought someone VERY talented and VERY hard working?
 
Plot. Armor.

As evidenced by his run-in's with Orochimaru
Incorrect. Naruto is talented. Orochimaru made the correct assessment and retreated. He was undercover and a fight against a Biju would reveal his identity and plans prematurely. My question was what would happen if Naruto was talentless. As things are now, Naruto was not saved by plot armor. It makes perfect sense that Orochimaru would not deem him a gamble worth making. Too much effort to fight for too little reward (negative reward even).
 
Incorrect. Naruto is talented. Orochimaru made the correct assessment and retreated. He was undercover and a fight against a Biju would reveal his identity and plans prematurely. My question was what would happen if Naruto was talentless. As things are now, Naruto was not saved by plot armor. It makes perfect sense that Orochimaru would not deem him a gamble worth making. Too much effort to fight for too little reward (negative reward even).
Oh.

Dead, I guess. Not even an afterthought. Barely an inconvenience.
 
Oh.

Dead, I guess. Not even an afterthought. Barely an inconvenience.
I mean, Naruto was not talented in the way Orochimaru appreciated. He is a talented student but not a talented inventor or assistant (which is what Orochimaru wants). He wanted someone who could come up with new jutsu easily. Naruto can come up with Rasengan and Shadow Clone variations but that is not what Orochimaru was looking for. The thing that would impress him the most would be Naruto's mastery over Sage Mode. He got the hang of it really fast and his solution to running out of Sage Chakra was brilliant. Naruto's ability of learning how to go around his limitations would be the one thing he would appreciate about him. However, Orochimaru was right. Naruto, while he was a genius in hindsight, has many limitations and barely knew any jutsu. Again, being an orphan hurt his development. He was a bit of a late bloomer who lacked the correct stimuli.
 
Tbh some of the things Naruto did are smart but i can't believe no one ever thought of them.
Like, how in the world did no one ever think of using shadow clones to gather nature chakra for refreshing sage mode before him?

Makes everyone else in the setting look like they are morons.
 
Tbh some of the things Naruto did are smart but i can't believe no one ever thought of them.
Like, how in the world did no one ever think of using shadow clones to gather nature chakra for refreshing sage mode before him?

Makes everyone else in the setting look like they are morons.
Actually that is explained. Sage Mode is hard and risky to learn. And those who know of the Sage Mode are rather secretive about it too. So is the Shadow Clone Jutsu. Most people do not have the chakra reserves of someone like Naruto to even attempt such things.
 
Pretty sure someone's already talked about this, but gotta love how Naruto finally becoming a Hokage wound up being a case of the dog that caught the car. For all the hype surrounding it, the job of a Hokage is pretty lame when there's no active war going on. It's just a bunch of pencil pushing. Naruto ended up with a job where he doesn't get to use his skills to their fullest extent, his family ended up on the margins of his time, and his son wound up resenting him over it. The story tries to smooth it over by conveying the idea that he actually likes the job because he "sees the whole village as his family" but let's face it, Naruto's got some serious issues if he can't see that he's supposed to have a totally different bond with his wife and kids than he does with his friends.
 
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