Naruto/Boruto Griefing Thread

[Cassius Crayfish]

The Ninja Jesus would have been fine if the narrative did not set up Naruto as the ultimate underdog. You cannot have both.

Sure you can. Jesus was an underdog who happened to be God.

 

[Incecticyder]

Sure you can. Jesus was an underdog who happened to be God.

No mate, Jesus was God. Many did not know that and many do not believe it but it does not change the fact that He is God. In any case, Naruto was always destined to win as he was merely a prophecised late-bloomer as opposed to a true underdog. Look at the Indra vs Asura reincarnations: the Indras are always geniuses that lose in the end while Asuras are always late-bloomers that win in the end. If it was not for that stupid prophecy/reincarnation junk, you could make an arguement for the underdog narrative but now that we have it we cannot really say that he was a true underdog (at least in hindsight). That and the lineage crap too. Him being descended from the Sage of Six Paths and being part of a clan that was feared for their power and techniques while also being the son of a genius cements this. He was born for greatness, he just lacked the right teachers to realise it at first. The moment he had Kakashi, Jiraiya, the frog sages and Killer B beside him, he was like a sponge for their knowledge and strength.

 

[Cassius Crayfish]

No mate, Jesus was God. Many did not know that and many do not believe it but it does not change the fact that He is God. In any case, Naruto was always destined to win as he was merely a prophecised late-bloomer as opposed to a true underdog. Look at the Indra vs Asura reincarnations: the Indras are always geniuses that lose in the end while Asuras are always late-bloomers that win in the end. If it was not for that stupid prophecy/reincarnation junk, you could make an arguement for the underdog narrative but now that we have it we cannot really say that he was a true underdog (at least in hindsight). That and the lineage crap too. Him being descended from the Sage of Six Paths and being part of a clan that was feared for their power and techniques while also being the son of a genius cements this. He was born for greatness, he just lacked the right teachers to realise it at first. The moment he had Kakashi, Jiraiya, the frog sages and Killer B beside him, he was like a sponge for their knowledge and strength.

Yes, Naruto was always destined to win just like Jesus was always destined to win over death.

The point I'm making is about being an underdog. Jesus, despite being God, did not appear in glory like the Jews were expecting of the Messiah. He was from Nazareth. He was the son of a carpenter. He didn't set about conquering the Romans. They didn't necessarily like what he had to say. That's the kind of underdog Naruto is too.

You can have other kinds of underdogs, perhaps more 'genuine' ones that are actually always outmatched against ther opponents or whatever, but Naruto is still part of the underdog family.

 

[Gorillion others]

No mate, Jesus was God. Many did not know that and many do not believe it but it does not change the fact that He is God. In any case, Naruto was always destined to win as he was merely a prophecised late-bloomer as opposed to a true underdog. Look at the Indra vs Asura reincarnations: the Indras are always geniuses that lose in the end while Asuras are always late-bloomers that win in the end. If it was not for that stupid prophecy/reincarnation junk, you could make an arguement for the underdog narrative but now that we have it we cannot really say that he was a true underdog (at least in hindsight). That and the lineage crap too. Him being descended from the Sage of Six Paths and being part of a clan that was feared for their power and techniques while also being the son of a genius cements this. He was born for greatness, he just lacked the right teachers to realise it at first. The moment he had Kakashi, Jiraiya, the frog sages and Killer B beside him, he was like a sponge for their knowledge and strength.

They always go through mental hoops to try and deny or explain away how Naruto wasn't a nepo baby. It often ends with them putting in even more retarded arguments.

 

[ShitLurker]

They always go through mental hoops to try and deny or explain away how Naruto wasn't a nepo baby. It often ends with them putting in even more retarded arguments.

Naruto as a series died the moment Naruto went from some poor random baby that got stuck with the curse to end all curses to the 4th's super special baby with his super special wife from the clan that is super special good at holding in super bad curses. And the funny part is that Naruto being the 4th's kid was pretty much a given since the start since there weren't many blonds in Konoha, but it still generated this very very very retarded setup where the super boss's kid that sacrificed himself to save the day is treated like absolute shit because "reasons".

You can't have a woes me underdog story when you were always fucking setup to succeed.

 

[Incecticyder]

Yes, Naruto was always destined to win just like Jesus was always destined to win over death.

The point I'm making is about being an underdog. Jesus, despite being God, did not appear in glory like the Jews were expecting of the Messiah. He was from Nazareth. He was the son of a carpenter. He didn't set about conquering the Romans. They didn't necessarily like what he had to say. That's the kind of underdog Naruto is too.

You can have other kinds of underdogs, perhaps more 'genuine' ones that are actually always outmatched against ther opponents or whatever, but Naruto is still part of the underdog family.

Let me put it in another way: Guy 1 and Guy 2 enter in a gladiatorial match. Guy 1 is a massive bloke. Peak human performance on all stats. His occupation is warrior and he has seen many battles. His education is combat training with various weapons and he has come armed. Guy 2 is a tall man but not enough to be mistaken for a basketball player. His built is that of a guy that goes to the gym enough to get a good looking muscular body but nothing intimidating. His occupation is reporter and he works for the local paper. His education is highschool level and he has done some acting lessons on the side but is very much a small town reporter that later transfered to a larger city and today he has come unarmed. Everyone places their bets. Seeing that Guy 1 is a huge warrior with tons of combat experience, everyone bets on him. Guy 2 is a massive underdog in the betting pool. Betting time ends and all bets are final. Guy 1 is named Gregor Clegane. Guy 2 is named Clark Kent. Perceived reality: Guy 2 is an weaker. Actual reality: Guy 2 is a God.

Naruto is very much the same. We were led to believe by the narrative that Naruto was an underdog but if you read the entire story from start to finish, he is an unconventional genius and late-bloomer whose only true struggles were the lack of teachers capable of teaching him and a loving family to temper him.

Naruto as a series died the moment Naruto went from some poor random baby that got stuck with the curse to end all curses to the 4th's super special baby with his super special wife from the clan that is super special good at holding in super bad curses. And the funny part is that Naruto being the 4th's kid was pretty much a given since the start since there weren't many blonds in Konoha, but it still generated this very very very retarded setup where the super boss's kid that sacrificed himself to save the day is treated like absolute shit because "reasons".

I disagree. It died the moment he became the prophecised reincarnation of Ninja Jesus. You can have an underdog be born in a powerful family. Even when we are talking about a late-bloomer, we can still have him be an underdog by making him unconventional. Late-bloomers start slow and are underestimated but learn faster and faster as they pick up learning speed. The underdog status of a late-bloomer stems from the fact that they refuse to give up during those sluggishly slow early stages. That is what makes them relatable as well as worth rooting for and the final genius status feel earned. In those slow early stages, they are indistinguisable from the truly talentless with their persistance being what reveals everything. They take the gamble and put time and effort into something they are not sure they are good at, so to speak.

However, with Naruto, we have the prophecy. The revelation that Naruto was always destined for greatness ruins everything. All he needed to do was be patient and his Ninja Jesus status would reveal itself. He should not have been worrying as he was always an unrealised demigod as opposed to one of the truly talentless or one who reached the status of a deity through hard work exclusively. Divine reincarnation played a big part.

 

[Cassius Crayfish]

Naruto is very much the same. We were led to believe by the narrative that Naruto was an underdog but if you read the entire story from start to finish, he is an unconventional genius and late-bloomer whose only true struggles were the lack of teachers capable of teaching him and a loving family to temper him.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. The only difference between our positions is that I consider the above to be a kind of underdog story. Underdogs are a large genre. You don't have to be the weaker character to be a kind of underdog.

If you want to argue that Kishimoto didn't nail the kind of underdog story he was telling, then sure, I'd agree with that. The reincarnation of Ashura is probably the biggest blot on it, although we aren't told how many reincarnations there (as far as I remember) are so there may well have been plenty of failures among them. But that doesn't mean (in my view) that Naruto is not in any sense an underdog.

 

[Incecticyder]

If you want to argue that Kishimoto didn't nail the kind of underdog story he was telling, then sure, I'd agree with that. The reincarnation of Ashura is probably the biggest blot on it, although we aren't told how many reincarnations there (as far as I remember) are so there may well have been plenty of failures among them. But that doesn't mean (in my view) that Naruto is not in any sense an underdog.

Yes, that is what I am arguing. He fudged the underdog part so much that it stopped feeling like an underdog story. Naruto started with every disadvantage possible only to end with every advantage possible including some that were retconed into always having been there (Asura and Uzumaki). From what we saw, every Asura reincarnation won at the end (even if they were losing initially). Asura, Hashirama and, finally, Naruto. If there were more, then we were not told of them. We can only judge as far as we know but what we know supports my conclusion: Asura was always destined to win at the end.

 

[TerminalTryHard]

I think you can make the underdog turns out to be the chosen one work but the issue is the execution.

The prophecy is straight out of left field. There is no build up to it, Jiraya just mentions it and then we find out that naruto is the chosen one. No one else even really mentions the prophecy besides Jiraya.

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

He was so close hitting the real point but coped out at the last second.

Well it doesn't stop there. Old characters aren't written in because they snap the story in two. It's crazy how flimsy the Omnipotence storyline is. None of them are going to buy the whole Naruto killing schtick.

Naruto as a series died the moment Naruto went from some poor random baby that got stuck with the curse to end all curses to the 4th's super special baby with his super special wife from the clan that is super special good at holding in super bad curses. And the funny part is that Naruto being the 4th's kid was pretty much a given since the start since there weren't many blonds in Konoha, but it still generated this very very very retarded setup where the super boss's kid that sacrificed himself to save the day is treated like absolute shit because "reasons".

If that's when Naruto died then it died in episode 1 because that's when I figured out he was Naruto's Dad. I mean...come on. Orphan kid, the 9 tails was sealed in some random baby? Come on. You CAN have both, the problem is his handling of it was sloppy. I blame Kishimoto for this. If the audience can figure it out, anyone can. The 4th Hokage really sealed the 9 tails in some random baby who happens to look just like him? A baby nobody has seen before that just so happens to appear after Kushina hasn't been seen in public for 9 months? On top of that, Kushina, the 9 tails, has gone missing for 9 months, then magically Kurama attacks and then it's suddenly fended off by the 4th Hokage and sealed inside of a kid who just happened to by nearby? A kid who again looks just like him? The villagers aren't fucking retarded.

The problem is what we learn later contradicts the previous narrative in such a bafflingly stupid way that it makes impossible to not demand an explanation. We don't get an explanation. We get an explanation in the light novels and it's basically a sweep saying "Danzo did it". That's all we get.

If you want to argue that Kishimoto didn't nail the kind of underdog story he was telling, then sure, I'd agree with that. The reincarnation of Ashura is probably the biggest blot on it, although we aren't told how many reincarnations there (as far as I remember) are so there may well have been plenty of failures among them. But that doesn't mean (in my view) that Naruto is not in any sense an underdog.

My biggest problem with the reincarnation bit is that Naruto was already prophesied for greatness. Twice. Once by the toads and once by Kurama. We didn't need the reincarnation bit. Hell, you know what would work better? Make Naruto and Sasuke spiritual successors. Just say Hagoromo had to split up his between a Senju and Uchiha and say they were both conveniently on the brink of death at the same time. Have Hagoromo wonder if it's just fate. Don't make them literal reincarnations.

 

[ShitLurker]

If that's when Naruto died then it died in episode 1 because that's when I figured out he was Naruto's Dad. I mean...come on. Orphan kid, the 9 tails was sealed in some random baby? Come on. You CAN have both, the problem is his handling of it was sloppy. I blame Kishimoto for this. If the audience can figure it out, anyone can. The 4th Hokage really sealed the 9 tails in some random baby who happens to look just like him? A baby nobody has seen before that just so happens to appear after Kushina hasn't been seen in public for 9 months? On top of that, Kushina, the 9 tails, has gone missing for 9 months, then magically Kurama attacks and then it's suddenly fended off by the 4th Hokage and sealed inside of a kid who just happened to by nearby? A kid who again looks just like him? The villagers aren't fucking retarded.

Episode 1 already made you think there was more to Naruto, but it never bothered to give you a proper reason to why he was ostracized so at the start one could think on if he was a bastard son or if there was a reason the child was kept a secret or what have you. Then the lineage of his mother gets revealed and this is what really sealed how stupid it all was.

So the family that always has the 9 tails put the 9 tails in a descendant. And you treat him like shit because reasons. Hell, the village knew the mother existed, right? Or are we to also believe nobody knew that the 4th was married and for reasons she had to live like a hermit?

 

[TerminalTryHard]

The villagers aren't fucking retarded

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one.

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

So the family that always has the 9 tails put the 9 tails in a descendant. And you treat him like shit because reasons. Hell, the village knew the mother existed, right? Or are we to also believe nobody knew that the 4th was married and for reasons she had to live like a hermit?

That's the odd thing. Kushina is a complete enigma. In her own flashbacks, she is living life like a normal girl in Konoha. In the recent Minato one shot, she IS living life like a hermit. In filler material, she's an average citizen that becomes the Hokage's wife that everyone knows and loves. In the light novels I think she's even friends with Sasuke's Mom. So it's a bit of a mystery of how much Kushina was actually known around the village.

 

[ShitLurker]

That's the odd thing. Kushina is a complete enigma. In her own flashbacks, she is living life like a normal girl in Konoha. In the recent Minato one shot, she IS living life like a hermit. In filler material, she's an average citizen that becomes the Hokage's wife that everyone knows and loves. In the light novels I think she's even friends with Sasuke's Mom. So it's a bit of a mystery of how much Kushina was actually known around the village.

I can only conclude she lived a normal life till an Uchiha stubbed their toe and in a fit of grief altered reality with his lazy eye powers and turned her into a hermit. Better answer than you'll get from any canon source at this rate.

 

[Incecticyder]

I think you can make the underdog turns out to be the chosen one work but the issue is the execution.

The prophecy is straight out of left field. There is no build up to it, Jiraya just mentions it and then we find out that naruto is the chosen one. No one else even really mentions the prophecy besides Jiraya.

The prophecy is a big part of the Pain Arc. As for the execution, the problem is that too many elements that normally do not go together are shoved in without consideration as to how they will fit. Prophecy, underdog, strong lineage, ostracisation etc etc. A jumbled mess all in all.

Well it doesn't stop there. Old characters aren't written in because they snap the story in two. It's crazy how flimsy the Omnipotence storyline is. None of them are going to buy the whole Naruto killing schtick.

They will buy it. It will not make sense as to how, but they will buy it.

If that's when Naruto died then it died in episode 1 because that's when I figured out he was Naruto's Dad. I mean...come on. Orphan kid, the 9 tails was sealed in some random baby? Come on. You CAN have both, the problem is his handling of it was sloppy. I blame Kishimoto for this. If the audience can figure it out, anyone can. The 4th Hokage really sealed the 9 tails in some random baby who happens to look just like him? A baby nobody has seen before that just so happens to appear after Kushina hasn't been seen in public for 9 months? On top of that, Kushina, the 9 tails, has gone missing for 9 months, then magically Kurama attacks and then it's suddenly fended off by the 4th Hokage and sealed inside of a kid who just happened to by nearby? A kid who again looks just like him? The villagers aren't fucking retarded.

And you know what? Konoha is supposed to be a small-knit village community filled with espionage professionals (at this point of the timeline). Everyone knew everyone and everything. Much more so than any other place, word should have gone out.

Episode 1 already made you think there was more to Naruto, but it never bothered to give you a proper reason to why he was ostracized so at the start one could think on if he was a bastard son or if there was a reason the child was kept a secret or what have you. Then the lineage of his mother gets revealed and this is what really sealed how stupid it all was.

As Naruto went on, stuff that happened in the past were being retconed. Kishimoto must not be spending time re-reading his own story. Or he just did not give a damn and added whatever he felt like even when it made no sense considering what was already estalished.

That's the odd thing. Kushina is a complete enigma. In her own flashbacks, she is living life like a normal girl in Konoha. In the recent Minato one shot, she IS living life like a hermit. In filler material, she's an average citizen that becomes the Hokage's wife that everyone knows and loves. In the light novels I think she's even friends with Sasuke's Mom. So it's a bit of a mystery of how much Kushina was actually known around the village.

Naruto has many female characters, few are developed. Naruto has a well earned reputation regarding its female characters.

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

Naruto has many female characters, few are developed. Naruto has a well earned reputation regarding its female characters

Filler or not, I can still tell you most of the women in Naruto lead normal ninja lives. Heck, we know nothing of Karin but I can tell you she lived in the Sound Village working for Orochimaru. Somehow met Sasuke and lived a normal Sound Village life....whatever that entails. I mean as Naruto's mother, we get very little about her. In the Road to Ninja movie she acts like a normal woman and isn't a hermit. All the other mediums are pretty consistent about this so I think it's safe to assume everyone knew about Kushina. She went to the ninja academy. She even earned a nickname and became notorious for her temper.

On a side note they really dropped the ball with that Hinata pairing. I really hate her compared to Sakura. Even in her own movie, Hinata is a nothing character.

 

[Incecticyder]

Filler or not, I can still tell you most of the women in Naruto lead normal ninja lives. Heck, we know nothing of Karin but I can tell you she lived in the Sound Village working for Orochimaru. Somehow met Sasuke and lived a normal Sound Village life....whatever that entails.

Did see not run into him during the Chuunin Exam? That was the retcon, no? She was a Grass Ninja then.

I mean as Naruto's mother, we get very little about her. In the Road to Ninja movie she acts like a normal woman and isn't a hermit. All the other mediums are pretty consistent about this so I think it's safe to assume everyone knew about Kushina. She went to the ninja academy. She even earned a nickname and became notorious for her temper.

Kushina is one of the biggest magnets for retcons and contradictions in the story. Was it not that the Road to Ninja movie was set in a Shattered Glass style universe produced by a genjutsu where everyone 's personality was the opposite of their canon counterpart? That Kushina should behave the opposite of the real one.

On a side note they really dropped the ball with that Hinata pairing. I really hate her compared to Sakura. Even in her own movie, Hinata is a nothing character.

I do not like how they handled that pairing even if I prefer it to NaruSaku. I think little of Hinata (because there is little to think about) but I despise Sakura (because there is a lot to despise). Sakura considers herself a genius early on and uses violence on someone who would never use such on her every time she feels like. She pines for an asshole. Everytime she is expected to put her ninja training to use, she chickened out (barring the fight against Kaguya). She is horrible if you think about it.

 

[Gorillion others]

because there is little to think about

It doesn't help that she was "always there". Stalking someone from a distance isn't the same as being "always there". If anything, she should have at least talked to him or have something resembling a normal conversation, clan restrictions be damned.

EDIT: Predictably, Cassius is already reaching with the loose logic. This seems to be an overarching problem with the Naruto fandom. A lot of them are; admittedly, underachievers and quite plainly outcasts who project unto Naruto that he is this talentless no-name everyman. Relatable, likeable, and embodies commendable traits. Then, all of a sudden, they're hit with the revelation that he's actually a demigod that was destined to always succeed.

Something that they, realistically, cannot project on or relate to, so they make excuses, rationalizations and other mental gymnastics to try and explain away all of those things even though it's staring them right in the face, already reaching levels of cope that shouldn't be possible, but considering who and what they are, it's expected. No one, especially those born under less than ideal or unenviable circumstances, can relate to someone like Naruto on a fundamental scale. At least those who actually aren't desperate to cling to a lifeline that got them through life without self-minecrafting.

Naruto reads like something out of an insidious dystopia. It's propaganda designed to give children false hope that they can coast by on just believing things will turn out okay. And that they'll be bailed out by plot armor and conveniences. Or, that they're actually late bloomers themselves with hidden talent that just need the right catalyst. It's pretty disgusting when you think about it.

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

Kushina is one of the biggest magnets for retcons and contradictions in the story. Was it not that the Road to Ninja movie was set in a Shattered Glass style universe produced by a genjutsu where everyone 's personality was the opposite of their canon counterpart? That Kushina should behave the opposite of the real one.

Yeah, Minato and Kushina were the big plot hole. I guess their opposite was being alive instead of dead which is hilarious. Either way, they don't show up much probably for that reason.

Sakura considers herself a genius early on and uses violence on someone who would never use such on her every time she feels like. She pines for an asshole. Everytime she is expected to put her ninja training to use, she chickened out (barring the fight against Kaguya). She is horrible if you think about it.

I'd be lying if I said fillers didn't do a lot of the heavy lifting for NaruSaku. Although they also do some lifting for NaruHina either. I like Sakura more. She tried to help Naruto when it counted (usually). Ironically, that Road to Ninja does a lot to help that too. Honestly this wouldn't be as bad if Hinata was given anything to do after her fight with Neji. But Hinata's only shining moment is getting slapped around by Pain, which in the manga is fine. The anime however makes this scene unintentionally hilarious and drags it out foreverrrrr by having her thrown around like a rag doll.

 

[Incecticyder]

It doesn't help that she was "always there". Stalking someone from a distance isn't the same as being "always there". If anything, she should have at least talked to him or have something resembling a normal conversation, clan restrictions be damned.

EDIT: Predictably, Cassius is already reaching with the loose logic. This seems to be an overarching problem with the Naruto fandom. A lot of them are; admittedly, underachievers and quite plainly outcasts who project unto Naruto that he is this talentless no-name everyman. Relatable, likeable, and embodies commendable traits. Then, all of a sudden, they're hit with the revelation that he's actually a demigod that was destined to always succeed.

Something that they, realistically, cannot project on or relate to, so they make excuses, rationalizations and other mental gymnastics to try and explain away all of those things even though it's staring them right in the face, already reaching levels of cope that shouldn't be possible, but considering who and what they are, it's expected. No one, especially those born under less than ideal or unenviable circumstances, can relate to someone like Naruto on a fundamental scale. At least those who actually aren't desperate to cling to a lifeline that got them through life without self-minecrafting.

Naruto reads like something out of an insidious dystopia. It's propaganda designed to give children false hope that they can coast by on just believing things will turn out okay. And that they'll be bailed out by plot armor and conveniences. Or, that they're actually late bloomers themselves with hidden talent that just need the right catalyst. It's pretty disgusting when you think about it.

Ok, Naruto is not EVIL. It is just badly written at certain aspects that it taints the overall experience if you think about it or revisit it. It still does have the things it does right. But it does not set out to hurt the youth. It just aimed to be an interesting story about a relatable underdog (inspired partly by Harry Potter) but fudged things as more time went on.

Kishimoto just failed to realise that certain story elements do not go together very easily and it went on from there. As for the fans, most of them fail to realise that being Ninja Jesus does not feel very inline with Naruto 's prior characterisation and themes. In other words, they do not feel bad about the changes for they do not see them. Seriously, Naruto has a pretty good reception outside this thread.

Yeah, Minato and Kushina were the big plot hole. I guess their opposite was being alive instead of dead which is hilarious. Either way, they don't show up much probably for that reason.

My guess is that they wanted us to see the real parents of Naruto and tried to create a premise that would allow it. Too bad they did not think too hard about it.

She tried to help Naruto when it counted (usually).

She helped continue the trend where women can abuse men physically and verbally with men being expected to take it. She has hurt her friend more than she hurt any enemy. Bad attitude all around. At least Hinata, for all her shyness, does not hurt those who love her.

Honestly this wouldn't be as bad if Hinata was given anything to do after her fight with Neji. But Hinata's only shining moment is getting slapped around by Pain, which in the manga is fine.

At least she stood up to Pain. Sakura nearly got herself killed because she decided to face Sasuke alone and could not bring herself to stab Obito 's eye when he asked her too (she is a trained doctor and an assassin). Both got tiring after a while but NaruHina felt underdeveloped as opposed to NaruSaku and SasuSaku that felt abusive. One could develop NaruHina (they failed but they could always add more stuff). The other two ships were too tainted with Sakura 's character flaws for me.

On Hinata: I wish we had seen more of her and had her interact with Naruto (she is a sensor, she could have joined in more missions).

On Sakura: She does not feel like a co-protagonist. A lot of her screentime was wasted on making her Sasuke 's battered wife and less on developing her as a ninja, a friend or an individual. She was featured a lot but not enough of it was good. Did you notice that her fighting style is just a copy of Tsunade 's? Her teammates have become different and better versions of their teachers, Sakura is at best a bit stronger than Tsunade.