Naruto/Boruto Griefing Thread

[Incecticyder]

Omnipotence is just a giant fucking mess and that seems to be why the current status quo is to just let it go. It's why we rushed into this Divine Trees arc so quickly. I think Kishimoto/Ike realized how much of a friggin mess Omnipotence was and wanted to get away from it as quickly as possible. Every time Omnipotence is mentioned in the story though, it's a friggin headache and a paragraph of me complaining.

This! Oh my God! We have reached the point of negative continuity! The story makes less sense the more you pay attention. Omnipotence has been retconned more times than people can keep up with, Kawaki is a horrible antagonist and The Dynamic Duo of Lazy Writing have half a brain to share between them.

Seriously, I could go through every retcon ever in Naruto and Boruto (original series too) and so that with some tweaks it could be made to work without breaking the worldbuilding. But Kishimoto would rather just insert his latest idea into the story the same way your "funny" uncle would shove your face into the birthday cake with enough force to draw blood and knock out teeth. The only defense for this is that the mangaka are overworked and Kishimoto could not have come up with something better due to exhaustion but that falls flat now as he has Ike and presumably others to help (plus it is monthly). I, however, have a simpler explanation: Kishi got complacent. He got used to his fanbase not complaining about his lazy retcons that he can no longer come up with better way to place new ideas into an already established work. His creativity muscles have atrophied and now they no longer work.

I will say this about Samurai 8 though (now that I remember): That one failing could be because of the editor. IIRC it was the same guy (he was known as the Grim Reaper of manga) that ruined MHA and that Red Riding Hood manga. Both manga started great (with MHA having its ups and its downs as it happens with all stories) but they fell hard when that guy started editing them. He has been fired since but his legacy lives on. What I am trying to say is this: A good editor can turn shit into gold and a bad editor can turn gold into shit. Especially since Samurai 8 was, at best, copper.

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

I, however, have a simpler explanation: Kishi got complacent. He got used to his fanbase not complaining about his lazy retcons that he can no longer come up with better way to place new ideas into an already established work. His creativity muscles have atrophied and now they no longer work.

I have a better explanation. Kishimoto is not a good writer and he was never a good writer. A good drawer? Yes. Very. A good writer? No and he never was. Naruto was lightning in a bottle. None of Naruto was planned. The entire thing was winged on the fly.

Samurai 8? It's Naruto 2.0. The first chapter is good and like Naruto, it went nowhere fast except this time, he didn't have an editor to bail him out. The power system he implemented was literally just called "Courage" that was so complicated it took pages of text walls to explain but ultimately boiled down to "Be brave, hit hard". There are several chapters dedicated to trying to explain it before he just gives up. Also, what constitutes as being brave? I don't know and neither does Kishimoto. He has a partner princess who's job is to sit there and.....pray. Yeah, that's it. She just sits there. Every time our hero gets his ass kicked, I really think she just didn't pray hard enough. We unironically do Zabuza and Haku again. We have Cat Jiraiya this time too who's a cat for reasons I can't be arsed to remember. Our protagonist is handicapped and bound, but we forget about that after the first chapter. I mean, I could go on, and on, and on for days about how terrible Samurai 8 was but it all boils down to the writing. None of it was good. Art? Fantastic. Writing? The worst. It was probably the worst manga I've ever read up to that point. Then Boruto happened.

Boruto has all of the above problems and it doesn't have good art either. The first OG Manga Piggy backed off of Kishimoto's designs and art style to some degree but TBV is completely Ikemoto's. Let's face it. The guy can't fucking draw. Or he needs to swallow his pride and accept help. He has no idea how to handle working a monthly manga. All of the characters look like fucking aliens. Their base model designs are awful. The action scenes are a headache to follow. Nothing flows from one panel to the next. It's truly the worst.

 

[Incecticyder]

I have a better explanation. Kishimoto is not a good writer and he was never a good writer. A good drawer? Yes. Very. A good writer? No and he never was. Naruto was lightning in a bottle. None of Naruto was planned. The entire thing was winged on the fly.

Do we know who were his editor during Naruto? I feel it is a bit farfetched to assume that the first half 's editors were all Diamond-tier Pros while the second half 's were all glue-eating marker sniffers. As for Samurai 8, I did not say it was anything resembling good, just that the editor sucked so there was no one to edit into being good. Of course there is no guarantee that the Great Kishimoto, creator of Naruto, would listen to a peasant editor but we can dream.

In any case, the missed opportunities, the plot holes, the betrayed themes, have all piled on. We can say that Boruto is shit but in reality, the stench began with the original. The time skip barely raised Naruto 's power and did almost nothing for his movepool, the story switched from an underdog narrative to a chosen one and hoped we wouldn't notice etc etc.

And yet the biggest (for me) problem happened at chapter 1. Naruto housing Kurama meant a lot of things. That he was an outcast, an orphan and an atom bomb set to explode upon being angered or injured and take down the village. The people of Konoha decide to abuse said kid and fill him with hatred giving him every reason to hate the village. I would not have been shocked if Naruto decided to destroy Konoha after all that. But it does not end there. Naruto just had to be the son of the village hero. And that is fine until you remember how they treated the son of the guy who gave everything for the village. His father sacrificed his life for them and had won them a war singlehandely beforehand making it so many Konoha families did not have to mourn. And his son is treated like shit. Is this what Minato gave his life for? I think Kishimoto wanted Naruto to be a tortured underdog as well as the hero 's son but did not realise that these elements are incompatible with each other. By making the villagers mistreat the son of their savior, they ended up being ungrateful assholes unworthy of Minato or Naruto. It happened with Kakashi 's dad too.

Rereading Naruto hurts because of all the things one remembers that were retconned, forgotten, abandoned or disappointing. In hindsight, the story is not great. Of the Big 3 it is the worst in my opinion.

 

[Gorillion others]

Naruto just had to be the son of the village hero. And that is fine until you remember how they treated the son of the guy who gave everything for the village. His father sacrificed his life for them and had won them a war singlehandely beforehand making it so many Konoha families did not have to mourn. And his son is treated like shit. Is this what Minato gave his life for? I think Kishimoto wanted Naruto to be a tortured underdog as well as the hero 's son but did not realise that these elements are incompatible with each other. By making the villagers mistreat the son of their savior, they ended up being ungrateful assholes unworthy of Minato or Naruto. It happened with Kakashi 's dad too.

It's basically when a DA victim keeps making excuses for their abuser. And, if you were to know anything about how life in Imperial Japan was like, you'll understand such a fucked up mindset.

It's like what Sasgay himself said. "A shinobi must endure."

Kishimoto is a piece of shit who thinks he comes up with claptrap that sounds profound, but is actually more like "I'm 14, and this is deep".

It's even more fucked up when the villagers actually come around after the Pein Arc, and the fans start believing horsecrap like, "Oh, maybe they were just pretending to ostracize him."

It's that bad.

 

[Incecticyder]

It's basically when a DA victim keeps making excuses for their abuser. And, if you were to know anything about how life in Imperial Japan was like, you'll understand such a fucked up mindset.

It's like what Sasgay himself said. "A shinobi must endure."

Blackadder said "Not even our generals are mad enough to sow their own men. They think it is far more sporting to let the Germans do it". This sums up everything that is wrong with the story. That and forgetting its own themes and message. And the retcons. Pain obliterated Konoha for all the wrongs they had done against his village from invasions to inciting civil war, but the entirety of Naruto 's backstory can be summed up as "friendly fire". If Naruto did not have as much kindness as he did, Konoha would have been destroyed. Konoha would be crater all because the villagers could not stop hitting the living atom bomb. What would have happened if Naruto did not have Iruka, Choji and Shikamaru growing up or Kakashi and Jiraiya in his teens? Let me tell you, if Naruto had spend his moody, hormonal years alone with Kurama being his only companion and feeding his inner misanthropy, he would not be Naruto but Griffith. Not being hyperbolic!

BTW, the constant retcons have assassinated the character of Hiruzen Sarutobi. He let Danzo and Orochimaru run rampart and undermining Konoha on every turn which does not portray him as compassionate to old friends but rather a meek individual who cannot protect peace. Also, why does Naruto not have an Anbu guard? Or someone to take care of him? Why did they not assign someone to protect him and show him love like a parent would? The son of the village hero has to subsist on expired milk and a can-do attitude! Hiruzen failed Minato, no two ways about it. Killer B at least had his brother, Naruto had no one living with him. Not to mention how he went from the strongest Hokage until Minato only to have that be retconed to be the weakest. Hashirama was basically a god, Tobirama was a genius at creating jutsu, Minato is the fastest in history, Tsunade has the best healing jutsu and a punch that impressed Madara of all people, Kakashi has mastered over a thousand jutsu including Susanno and keeps making new ones, Naruto is a Sage, Asura and a Jinchiruki and even Shikamaru is (supposed to be) the smartest in the world. Hiruzen is supposed to be someone who can combine many jutsu but that is basically nothing as the powerscaling went out of whack! He went from strong and wise but flawed to just flawed.

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

Rereading Naruto hurts because of all the things one remembers that were retconned, forgotten, abandoned or disappointing. In hindsight, the story is not great. Of the Big 3 it is the worst in my opinion.

Ostracizing him at all makes no sense. You really expect us to believe Minato died, then mysteriously this blonde haired boy has shown up with the Nine Tails inside of him after Kushina disappeared for the past 9 months? You're telling me nobody squinted their eyes and went "Yo..wait a minute...". You're expecting us to believe the entire village couldn't put two and two together with the timelines that this kid who conveniently has his birthday the same day as the Nine Tails attack and has the Nine Tails sealed inside of him and vaguely resembles the 4th Hokage isn't his son? On top of that, people didn't stop and think "Hey maybe we shouldn't piss off the kid that's a living nuke? That seems like a really bad idea".

The whole ostracizing thing became such a headache they had to retcon it to make Danzo do it in a light novel.

 

[Incecticyder]

The whole ostracizing thing became such a headache they had to retcon it to make Danzo do it in a light novel.

That still does not make sense. Why did Hiruzen not inform them that Naruto is the son of Minato and hurting the kid is insulting the man 's sacrifice and memory? Why did Hiruzen not adopt Naruto into his family to protect him? This whole situation reminds me of the "Tickling the Dragon 's Tail Experiments" where the nuclear scientist were trying to see how far they could push their luck with the Demon Core, the core of the 3rd atom bomb meant to be dropped on Tokio but was not because Japan surrendered. All those scientists died days after the Core went super critical because the only precaution they had taken to protect themselves was a screwdriver. Just idiocy and hubris.

Also, Hiruzen should have gotten rid of Danzo from the start. Danzo undermined every ally 's efforts while creating as many new and powerful enemies as possible thinking he could always get away and win in the end forgetting that not everyone is as weak minded as Hiruzen. Danzo can best be described as a coward pretending to be self-important. Let us not forget that he pissed his pants when Tobirama asks for a volunteer for a vital, suicide mission while Hiruzen volunteered himself. He keeps going about acceptable losses but he is "too important" to be sacrificed himself. In his eyes, everyone who is not him is acceptable losses. If Hiruzen is weak then Danzo is weak and a pussy.

 

[TerminalTryHard]

Ostracizing him at all makes no sense. You really expect us to believe Minato died, then mysteriously this blonde haired boy has shown up with the Nine Tails inside of him after Kushina disappeared for the past 9 months? You're telling me nobody squinted their eyes and went "Yo..wait a minute...". You're expecting us to believe the entire village couldn't put two and two together with the timelines that this kid who conveniently has his birthday the same day as the Nine Tails attack and has the Nine Tails sealed inside of him and vaguely resembles the 4th Hokage isn't his son? On top of that, people didn't stop and think "Hey maybe we shouldn't piss off the kid that's a living nuke? That seems like a really bad idea".

The whole ostracizing thing became such a headache they had to retcon it to make Danzo do it in a light novel.

It's actually worse if the fan translation of the data books are accurate, as according to those Sasuke's mom tried to adopt Naruto as she was friends with Kushina and was apparently the only one in the village that had any sympathy for Naruto.

The adoption prevented though because Danzo thought it was some kind of Uchiha trick.

 

[Incecticyder]

It's actually worse if the fan translation of the data books are accurate, as according to those Sasuke's mom tried to adopt Naruto as she was friends with Kushina and was apparently the only one in the village that had any sympathy for Naruto.

The adoption prevented though because Danzo thought it was some kind of Uchiha trick.

I heard that too but I was unsure as I could not find a verified translation. The Uchiha might be crazy but their craziness stems from their emotions, you could say that they care too much and they get psychotic over it. I would not be shocked if you told me that the treatment of Naruto (son of the Hero Minato) contributed in their belief that the village and its people are beyond saving.

Reminder that Hiruzen let Danzo run rampart destroying all good will inside and outside Konoha. Danzo might be the root of the problem but Hiruzen was the gardener that helped him grow.

 

[Trollblade69]

Do you understand now why the "Child Killer Hiruzen" joke caught on so well?

 

[Incecticyder]

Do you understand now why the "Child Killer Hiruzen" joke caught on so well?

Joke aside, Hiruzen is a victim of retcons made by an author in desperate need for a GOOD editor that has stuck with him from start to finish (or at the very least has read the story and was taking notes).

The Naruto manga has so many writing mistakes that you could have a writing class with the subject being "Things that ruin a story that has potential and how to avoid them". It could go for an entire semester and it would be money well spent by everyone involved.

Let me say this though: I do not hate the story, in fact I like it a lot as it helped shape me to who I am (you could say I am throwing some blame too I suppose) but if you were to compare its quality, impact and legacy to that of its Big 3 counterparts, it fails to cut the mustard. Bleach is looked upon more favourably now that the anime returned as people revisit and rediscover its story or are motivated by the anime to see it for the first time. Not to mention that the biggest mangaka of the generation after the Big 3 consider Bleach their inspiration. The DNA of Bleach flows through them all. And One Piece is the biggest manga of all time. While it does not have successors (it has not ended yet), coping it is self destructive as in order for a story like One Piece to work it needs to have many moving gears all in perfect condition otherwise it is doomed (just ask Fairy Tail). Nothing can come close to it due to a compination of length, complexity, quality and variety so most authors do not bother copying it. Naruto 's flaws become magnified when put next to those two.

 

[TerminalTryHard]

Joke aside, Hiruzen is a victim of retcons made by an author in desperate need for a GOOD editor that has stuck with him from start to finish (or at the very least has read the story and was taking notes).

I have to agree with this. Hiruzen was suppose to be the wise old man pulled out of retirement due to extreme circumstances and the lack anyone qualified to be Hokage. Doing his best in hard times.

Later plot reveals and retcons make his actions retarded at best, if nit borderline sadistic.

Bleach is looked upon more favourably now that the anime returned as people revisit and rediscover its story or are motivated by the anime to see it for the first time.

I disagree with this though. I think the only reason Bleach is looked on more fondly now is that TYBW is apparently very good and streaming means you cam skip all the pointless bullshit in the original anime.

 

[Trollblade69]

I think the only reason Bleach is looked on more fondly now is that TYBW is apparently very good and streaming means you cam skip all the pointless bullshit in the original anime.

More likely people are praising it because it's not producing filler stretches anymore. That's one of the biggest things people have needled the Big Three for, and is part of why MHA, KnY and HunterXHunter haven't gotten it nearly as rough from the general populace.
I've heard a theory that if Black Clover or Fairy Tail had been put on a seasonal release format instead of a forever-runner one, then the normies would uncritically praise them just as much as MHA and KnY.

 

[Incecticyder]

Later plot reveals and retcons make his actions retarded at best, if nit borderline sadistic.

Sadistic is such a loaded term. I would compare him to someone like President Grant. Great military man but had horrible friends who were corrupt to the core and he did not have the heart to remove them from power. Felt like story bits were being added without regard for how they changed the retrosective of the characters or events. Like, remember how one of the themes of Naruto was how war and conflict stems from misunderstanding and we needed to talk no jutsu out of it and improve ourselves instead of using superweapons to create peace? The story ends with us finding out that all of the wars took place not because of misunderstandings, human flaws or geopolitical issues but because ALIENS MANIPULATED US INTO FIGHTING!!!! The story went from trying to understand the human heart and create peace through such understanding to FUCKING SPACE INVADERS!! WE DO NOT HAVE TO FIX OURSELVES TO STOP CONFLICT, JUST BEAT THE ALIENS!!!! This is what I meant by "betrayal of themes".

I disagree with this though. I think the only reason Bleach is looked on more fondly now is that TYBW is apparently very good and streaming means you cam skip all the pointless bullshit in the original anime.

I am talking about the manga as it did not have all the filler. I feel that the manga is better on the reread as you can see all the foreshadowings and the pay offs. Give it a shot.

ATTENTION PLEASE! THE NEXT SEGMENT IS MEANT TO BE READ IN THE VOICE OF PROFESSOR FARNSWORTH FROM FUTURAMA! ENJOY!

Good news, everyone! I figured a way to have written the new Boruto manga with Omnipotence as originally described AND STILL HAVE IT MAKE SENSE! The answer is very simple: frame Boruto for attempted murder/murder. Here is how: Firstly, Kawaki makes it so that only recent memory is affected and only of those that were eyewitnesses to the supposed event. The eyewitnesses are brainwashed by Omnipotence into thinking Boruto became fully and permanently possessed by Momoshiki and attacked them only to be sent fleeing by Kawaki. They will also testify to such an event happening and Boruto is declared a missing-nin too dangerous to live. The End.

SEGMENT OVER!

That is it! No photos, no newspapers, no internet, no conflicting memories, no retcons! Just some thought being put in how Omnipotence was to be used to make Boruto leave the village and nothing more for the story to work was needed!

Any thoughts?

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

I disagree with this though. I think the only reason Bleach is looked on more fondly now is that TYBW is apparently very good and streaming means you cam skip all the pointless bullshit in the original anime.

It's looked on fondly because TYBW is genuinely good when you throw in the Can't Fear Your Own World stuff. The story has ideas there to be a fantastic story. Kubo is one of the few writers who improved over time. Bleach is also better on a rewatch without all the filler.

 

[Gorillion others]

Good news, everyone! I figured a way to have written the new Boruto manga with Omnipotence as originally described AND STILL HAVE IT MAKE SENSE! The answer is very simple: frame Boruto for attempted murder/murder. Here is how: Firstly, Kawaki makes it so that only recent memory is affected and only of those that were eyewitnesses to the supposed event. The eyewitnesses are brainwashed by Omnipotence into thinking Boruto became fully and permanently possessed by Momoshiki and attacked them only to be sent fleeing by Kawaki. They will also testify to such an event happening and Boruto is declared a missing-nin too dangerous to live. The End.

SEGMENT OVER!

That is it! No photos, no newspapers, no internet, no conflicting memories, no retcons! Just some thought being put in how Omnipotence was to be used to make Boruto leave the village and nothing more for the story to work was needed!

Any thoughts?

Decent, but holy fuck, is the current power system broken as fuck.

 

[Incecticyder]

Decent, but holy fuck, is the current power system broken as fuck.

I was not going for masterpiece but just "same story, zero retcons". I limited myself to the same plot for all my edits because changing the actual story would prove nothing and would just be fanfiction. I wanted to prove that Naruto could have been done better if Kishimoto and his editors took a step back and not change things on a whim or introduce new ideas without regard as to where they fit or how they affect the story and characters. Again, it is not a bad story, it was just told badly.

 

[Gorillion others]

Again, it is not a bad story, it was just told badly.

It wouldn't be if it was actually written halfway decently.

 

[TerminalTryHard]

Sadistic is such a loaded term. I would compare him to someone like President Grant. Great military man but had horrible friends who were corrupt to the core and he did not have the heart to remove them from power. Felt like story bits were being added without regard for how they changed the retrosective of the characters or events

Yeah sadistic might have been a poor choice of words. Maybe it would be better to say his actions only really make sense in order to give Naruto an even more tragic back story.

Take leaving him alone as an orphan. We already know that rival villages have no problem targeting children from when the cloud niggers tried to abduct Hinata. Would they not also try and target the Nine tailed fox host? Or are we to believe despite the whole village knowing it they kept it a secret to themselves? Throw in one of my least favorite twists with the Uzamaki clan, none of the villages enemies recognize the name? At the very least some johnin should've been assigned to watch Naruto for security reasons. Not doing it only makes sense if you want Naruto to have a sad tragic back story.

 

[Incecticyder]

Take leaving him alone as an orphan. We already know that rival villages have no problem targeting children from when the cloud niggers tried to abduct Hinata. Would they not also try and target the Nine tailed fox host? Or are we to believe despite the whole village knowing it they kept it a secret to themselves? Throw in one of my least favorite twists with the Uzamaki clan, none of the villages enemies recognize the name? At the very least some johnin should've been assigned to watch Naruto for security reasons. Not doing it only makes sense if you want Naruto to have a sad tragic back story.

The story 's theme was "underdog that proved everyone wrong" but Kishimoto realised that he could not write that story and he switched it to a Christ allegory, made Naruto 's genes powerful to the point his family was wiped out and Naruto was a reincarnation of a demigod. Everything can be traced back to this: "Kishimoto realised he could not write this, so he abandoned it". He could not write 200 IQ fights, so Shikamaru was pushed out. He could not write underdog stories, so Lee was pushed out and Naruto became a demigod. He could not write women as characters on their own so he had them pine for a boy like a teenage girl would. He could not write Kaguya into the story organicaly, so he dropped her on it like brick.

Speaking of Kaguya, here is how I would have written her into the story: I would have Madara feel like something weird is happening to his body as he was fighting and after he absorbed the tree, that feeling got worse and eventually, she took over (the Tailed Beasts were known to have their own will and Madara should not have assumed he could have an easy time with the strongest among them also control of Zetsus would switch to Kaguya as she is Madara in a way). Not to mention how robotic she felt fighting (my favourite moment with her was the reverse harem no jutsu as it was both funny and logical as she had not seen men for centuries, she felt human then). She needed to be ordered around by Zetsu to be effective and that is not right for the big bad. Have her copy jutsu she saw through Madara as both had an advanced version of the Sharingan as its most basic ability is copying jutsu. Also, her plan was trash. Using plants that were defeated by normal shinobi while having immortals backing them up as footsoldiers against gods? How would that work?