Metal Gear

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Duncan Hills Coffee said:
It's actually interesting you say that because I'd argue that MGS2 was the only one in the series that tried to discourage just tranquilizing everything, or at the very least asked you to weigh your options. If you left a guard unattended for too long, his CO will come on over the radio and ask why he's late for his status report. Eventually, he'll send a squad over to investigate. There were ways around it of course such as hiding the body and waiting for everyone to go away, but it wasn't just tranqing a guard and forgetting about him. Hell even the cheese method of just running out of the area and coming back to restart the CO's conversation required you to at least be aware of where you are and you had to be quick in leaving the area.

Outside of Twin Snakes, which was just MGS2's gameplay transplanted onto MGS1's levels, none of the sequels did this. So long as the conscious guards didn't stumble across the ones that fell asleep you were basically free to tranq everything. You are right though that MGS' stealth eventually gave way to just using the tranq gun on everything; it's actually a lot more fun not using it because it requires you to learn the level layout and take advantage of the game's mechanics.
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Tbf Kojima probably understood that how heavily people leaned on the tranq gun and tried vary it up considering we have more nonlethal options in pretty much every game after 3.
 
Anusbeard said:
The boss fights aren't any more grindy than other metal gear bossfights.
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are you being fuckin serious right now?

Ruin said:
Gamers really only have themselves to blame for MGSV. Everyone whined and bitched so much about MGS4 being so cutscene heavy they just gave everyone what the thought they wanted and stripped out the story.
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That was actually the best part of MGS V IMO.

The worst part was how empty and fucking boring the open world was. A complete fucking waste.
 
X Pac Heat said:
are you being fuckin serious right now?
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Yeah, PW boss fights are like most other metal gear boss fights where you have a long health bar you need to deplete by shooting when there's an opening. They aren't any more grindy than the other games. They are a little bland though since you're mostly just fighting giant robots but you can prepare however you want, take any weapons you've researched, and even do them online.
 
Anusbeard said:
Yeah, PW boss fights are like most other metal gear boss fights where you have a long health bar you need to deplete by shooting when there's an opening. They aren't any more grindy than the other games. They are a little bland though since you're mostly just fighting giant robots but you can prepare however you want, take any weapons you've researched, and even do them online.
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By this logic every boss fight is a grind because they have health bars. The point is the time it takes and the tedium of the boss fights.

This isn't even getting into how every single boss was the exact same thing. Use up all resources until dead. Every other Metal Gear Solid game had bosses that had some unique factor to them. The only unique factor to peace walker is if it is a tank or a helicopter and if it's a shade of red.

Also your argument falls apart completely when you factor in that Kojima specifically designed them to be grind fests to encourage group play to take them down, so by nature they're vastly different from every other boss that was intended to be taken down in single player only.
 
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Anusbeard said:
Yeah, PW boss fights are like most other metal gear boss fights where you have a long health bar you need to deplete by shooting when there's an opening. They aren't any more grindy than the other games.
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Not even fucking close. Every boss in the other MGS games can be beaten fairly easily and don't require an overabundance of resources to take down, even if you were going Tranq only.

In Peace Walker, every boss can easily tank some of your strongest weapons in the game and require multiple supply drops in one mission just to whittle down.
 
Anusbeard said:
Yeah and my point is that the PW boss fights don’t take longer than other metal gear boss fights
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Bro, you owe everyone a share of the fucked up drugs you're on. PW bosses were tanky af, especially when you first reach them and then when you do the Custom versions. I grinded that shit when I was younger for a 100% ZEKE. Not only were they tanky, but the amount of part damage you'd need for most things would make Cocoon impossible to break every part even with careful execution. So you had a lot of bullshit trying to get everything from the bosses, for almost no reason other than to encourage more playtime online, which was dumb.

That said, PW was a seriously fun game with good core gameplay. I wish we had another game like it with online multiplayer, but thankfully you can now a days use PPSSPP to do online multiplayer.
 
As a kid I always liked the Big Shell as a location, so I was pleasantly surprised to discover this codec convo covering in-depth how the plant functioned before the incident:
Too bad she doesn't go into detail about Struts G-K (it always bugged me that we barely get to see Shell 2) but she does explain why the Shell 2 core is flooded when the player arrives.
 
FriendlyPrimarina said:
As a kid I always liked the Big Shell as a location, so I was pleasantly surprised to discover this codec convo covering in-depth how the plant functioned before the incident:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ndv9CKoZeQkToo bad she doesn't go into detail about Struts G-K (it always bugged me that we barely get to see Shell 2) but she does explain why the Shell 2 core is flooded when the player arrives.
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Same here, people simp for Shadow Moses constantly (and I love that location, dont get me wrong) but Big Shell felt like a worthy sucessor because it wasnt a base (at first), just a harmless ecological facility...yet there was this otherworldly atmosphere...like this "artificial" feel in the air. Its like your mind KNOWS something is off but you cant figure out what and why. And given how the whole game was going for this direction, I'd say that the whole thing was executed masterfully

The reveal that the WHOLE fucking place was a mega metal gear was absolutely insane.
 
You know. Am I the only one that finds it difficult to attach the first game of the series within its wider context?

What I mean is that its plot makes sense within its own established lore. But if you consider the wider interconected one at large...it begins to look disconnected

-Big Boss becomes leader of Foxhound (how did the patriots allowed this?)

-Big Boss trains his own clone son ( Big Boss has shown disgust at his clone/sons, he wished for them to be treated humanely but he wanted nothing to do with them...why train Solid?)

-Big Boss sends sent said son into a mission that he was aparently suppose to fail ( I assume that Big Boss trained Solid pretty damn well given what David is shown to be capable of even as early as Outer Heaven. So why send him especifically? Its VERY hard to justify this one, only if you maybe buy that Outer Heaven was meant to be destroyed with Venom inside to make the world think the real Big Boss was dead...but that would paint Big Boss as a cold uncaring man, wouldnt it? Just being ok with so many of his own man, Venom included, being killed just to send "false information" to the world...)

Starting to see a patern? The real issue is that MG Big Boss just doesnt seem to be the same character that we see in the rest of the series. Both from a character stand point and from a strategic point. Of course, I could be wrong but does anyone have any explanation/interpretation? MG 2 Big Boss at least fits better in that regard but there are still some disconnects, even if they are minor (like the whole declaration of being Solid's father never actually happening in the games themselves...)

Edit: I think that the issue isnt this disconnect by itself. Its the fact we lack this "connecting" thread that allows us to connect that MGS 5 would go on to become MG1 Big Boss. I guess you can blame of MGS 5 being technically incomplete but if there was something, it would be a tad sudden even then.
 
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Kojima never really intended to continue the series beyond MGS2, so it makes sense that the rest of the games don't really gel all that well with the first installment.
 
Narrative-wise, MGSV was a mistake. Big Boss somehow surviving Outer Heaven was one of the least stupid things in the overarching plot and didn't really need an explanation. Pulling a bait-and-switch on the main character didn't go down well in 2001 I don't know why Kojima thought it would work in 2016 or whenever TPP came out.

At least the bait-and-switch in 2001 had the intended effect (make Snake look cooler). MGSV just cheapened BB's character for no reason other that to solve a plot hole that most people just glossed over.
 
LightDragonman1 said:
Kojima never really intended to continue the series beyond MGS2, so it makes sense that the rest of the games don't really gel all that well with the first installment.
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And it shows!

Snake Eater circumvented the issue by being a prequel, the more time goes on though the more I think of Sons of Liberty as the end, I can't even explain why exactly 4 bothers me so much, it just does, it played it too easy and was too obviously a game Kojima's heart wasn't in.

The Phantom Pain has a lot of interesting elements but it's overall such a mess, it's much cleaner and neater to imagine the story ends with Sons of Liberty.
 
Dom Cruise said:
And it shows!

Snake Eater circumvented the issue by being a prequel, the more time goes on though the more I think of Sons of Liberty as the end, I can't even explain why exactly 4 bothers me so much, it just does, it played it too easy and was too obviously a game Kojima's heart wasn't in.

The Phantom Pain has a lot of interesting elements but it's overall such a mess, it's much cleaner and neater to imagine the story ends with Sons of Liberty.
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Thats something I hear a lot about how it would have been better to end the series there and stuff.

But I legit dont get that, if it was really the case, why Kojima left a giant cliffhanger at the end with the patriots aparently being all dead for a LONG time? It was setting up stuff, so it was far from conclusive, intention wise at least. If the series ended there, so much would be left unanswered.
 
The handsome tard said:
But I legit dont get that, if it was really the case, why Kojima left a giant cliffhanger at the end with the patriots aparently being all dead for a LONG time?
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The implicit explanation between MGS2 and MGS3 is that the data on the "Patriots" reverse-engineered from Emma's virus was bogus and actually a list of the members from the old Wisemen's Committee (i.e., the first group of Philosophers mentioned in MGS3). But that's a whole different mess of Kojima retroactively changing details of the overarching plot, as it doesn't get mentioned until MGS4 that the data is completely false and intentionally misleading.
 
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Gravemind said:
The implicit explanation between MGS2 and MGS3 is that the data on the "Patriots" reverse-engineered from Emma's virus was bogus and actually a list of the members from the old Wisemen's Committee. But that's a whole different mess of Kojima retroactively changing details of the overarching plot, as it doesn't get mentioned until MGS4 that the data is completely false and intentionally misleading.
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Christ, Kojima truly was writing this all on the fly, wasnt he? Introduce something only to change your mind and retcon it asap next entry.
 
Only the first two MGS were good. MGS3 is overrated but at least playable. MGS4 & 5 killed the stealth aspect. While technically you can go guns blazing in the other games too, they were obviously designed around satisfying stealth mechanics. Making that totally optional or even secondary or an afterthought killed the games for me.

The Acid subseries is something I wish they'd bring back, it was non-canon anyway so it isn't like they need Kojima.
 
The handsome tard said:
Thats something I hear a lot about how it would have been better to end the series there and stuff.

But I legit dont get that, if it was really the case, why Kojima left a giant cliffhanger at the end with the patriots aparently being all dead for a LONG time? It was setting up stuff, so it was far from conclusive, intention wise at least. If the series ended there, so much would be left unanswered.
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That's the rub, I never would have accepted 2 not getting a direct follow up, I mean I would have absolutely demanded it.

So it's not so much I wish 2 hadn't got a direct sequel, I just wish we got something better than 4, I still don't understand why Kojima dropped the ball so much on 4 or why exactly he thought an open ending was good if he didn't want to follow up on it, I can see him thinking it was a bold choice to leave things to the fans imaginations, but then why throw in that "they died about 100 years ago" tease?

That comment makes zero sense anyway because The Patriots are inspired by the Wise Men who founded NATO, ie Cold War era dudes, so to say they died before the Cold War even happened? It would have made a little more sense to say "they died 50 years ago" but 100?

But all the pieces were there for 4 but he just didn't deliver, I remember one rumor was that 4 would be set in Area 51, that would have been a lot more interesting than 4's globe hopping locales, which meant nothing got fleshed out the way the settings of the prior games did.

Another thing that sucks about 4 is it's as dated as 2 is still timely, 4 is all about the controversy over PMCs in the Iraq war like Black Water, a lot of media dealt with those kind of themes around 2008, but frankly the Iraq war has little relevance to our world today, what 2 deals with is a million times more relevant, it's spookily relevant even, but why was 4 the opposite on that front?

I think Kojima really did say all he wanted to say with Metal Gear with 2, it may not have been a story that ended in a traditional way, but he got his point across, meanwhile all the other games after that was Kojima working his way backwards from "I have to make a new Metal Gear" than something that was actually inspired.

In hindsight it should have been obvious something was up when 4 was announced only the following year after 3, complete with a trailer, whereas 3 wasn't announced until almost 2 years after Sons of Liberty, today that reeks of Konami really forcing Kojima to get busy with a 4th game rather than maybe giving him more time to chew things over.


SSj_Ness said:
Only the first two MGS were good. MGS3 is overrated but at least playable. MGS4 & 5 killed the stealth aspect. While technically you can go guns blazing in the other games too, they were obviously designed around satisfying stealth mechanics. Making that totally optional or even secondary or an afterthought killed the games for me.

The Acid subseries is something I wish they'd bring back, it was non-canon anyway so it isn't like they need Kojima.
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3 is indeed overrated, the trouble is it's aged worse than 2 given it's jungle environments, so impressive at the time, but they look very dated today and the whole camo system was a bit awkward at times and the stealth in that one is overall a bit too convoluted compared to the brilliantly simple formula in 1 and 2 (just look at the VR missions in both games for a perfect example of how pure and well done the formula was)

The story is good but not amazing, it doesn't give you as much to chew on as 2 and it lacks twists and turns as surprising as the ones in 1 and 2, I think part of the trouble with 3's story is it's obvious from the start where it's going, you know there's only one way it can end, which is the opposite of 2 where you truly didn't know where the hell it was going.

However, make no mistake, 3 was a story worth telling, it was worthwhile to flesh out Big Boss and that does make the saga overall richer, Big Boss saluting The Boss's grave would have been a powerful image to end the series on, if only...
 
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