Metal Gear

[X Pac Heat]

Question, there is usually this fight between MGS 2 vs 3 and I have been wondering what are the opinion of those here and if passage of time may or may not have altered some opinions (such as Raiden not being so hated anymore and the stuff the AIs talked about being disturbingly prophetic).

My thoughts are that Raiden is still shit, and in fact became more and more shit the further the series went on. I also don't give Kojima all the credit of his story being prophetic since I'd been hearing conspiracy theories very similar to what he conveys on Coast to Coast and from Alex Jones types around the same time as MGS2 launched.

MGS2 is a good game, but I think it wasn't the "perfection" of MGS1 formula like so many say simply because there is way too much focus on the tranq gun compared to enemy distraction and movement that was in MGS1. The tranq gun actually became a real crutch for the series in general. I do still really enjoy MGS2's soundtrack and atmosphere, probably more than MGS3.

I think MGS3 is the better game, simply because (even though it gets pretty cringe) the story is straightforward and and gameplay offers more flexibility and freedom than MGS2's.

Edit: Also Olga is the only great boss in MGS2, as on harder difficulties stealth can actually play a key factor in the fight. Fatman is a close second because it tried something new with the bomb disposal bits. The rest are meh to complete fucking shit.

 

[Duncan Hills Coffee]

MGS2 is a good game, but I think it wasn't the "perfection" of MGS1 formula like so many say simply because there is way too much focus on the tranq gun compared to enemy distraction and movement that was in MGS1. The tranq gun actually became a real crutch for the series in general. I do still really enjoy MGS2's soundtrack and atmosphere, probably more than MGS3.

It's actually interesting you say that because I'd argue that MGS2 was the only one in the series that tried to discourage just tranquilizing everything, or at the very least asked you to weigh your options. If you left a guard unattended for too long, his CO will come on over the radio and ask why he's late for his status report. Eventually, he'll send a squad over to investigate. There were ways around it of course such as hiding the body and waiting for everyone to go away, but it wasn't just tranqing a guard and forgetting about him. Hell even the cheese method of just running out of the area and coming back to restart the CO's conversation required you to at least be aware of where you are and you had to be quick in leaving the area.

Outside of Twin Snakes, which was just MGS2's gameplay transplanted onto MGS1's levels, none of the sequels did this. So long as the conscious guards didn't stumble across the ones that fell asleep you were basically free to tranq everything. You are right though that MGS' stealth eventually gave way to just using the tranq gun on everything; it's actually a lot more fun not using it because it requires you to learn the level layout and take advantage of the game's mechanics.

 

[Friendly Primarina]

As the series went on, I started to miss flesh-and-blood Raiden. MGS4 on Raiden was an edgy dipshit.

The gameplay pacing of MGS2 is really weird. About 2/3 of the game is spent sneaking around with few boss fights when suddenly the rug is pulled from under the player and every section feels like a gimmick level. After you reach Shell 2 the gameplay goes:
Swimming section > escort mission > sniping escort mission > sneaking section but nekkid > enemy hallway > boss > another boss > end
The censorship of the final sequence doesn't help the disjointed feel either. When I was a kid I had no idea how Raiden and Solidus ended up on that building.

Something I only noticed when watching an old LP of MGS4: There's this really strange disconnect between the fighting scenes (which were overseen by a guy who used to train SWAT teams) and the drama scenes (which were written by Kojima). So basically you have scenes with soldiers wordlessly fighting and acting as (I would imagine) real soldiers would act. Then they start talking to one another and turn into children/aliens.

The best example I can think of is the section where Snake meets Rat Patrol Team 01. It comes after a gritty section depicting a desperate guerilla fight with one of Liquid's PMCs. Then Snake meets up with Meryl and they make this pose:

Spoiler: Cringe

When Meryl finds out that Campbell is giving Snake orders she freaks out and throws a literal tantrum like a teenager. Then it's followed by another gritty fighting section with Meryl's team efficiently and methodically fighting like actual soldiers again.

 

[X Pac Heat]

It's actually interesting you say that because I'd argue that MGS2 was the only one in the series that tried to discourage just tranquilizing everything, or at the very least asked you to weigh your options. If you left a guard unattended for too long, his CO will come on over the radio and ask why he's late for his status report. Eventually, he'll send a squad over to investigate. There were ways around it of course such as hiding the body and waiting for everyone to go away, but it wasn't just tranqing a guard and forgetting about him. Hell even the cheese method of just running out of the area and coming back to restart the CO's conversation required you to at least be aware of where you are and you had to be quick in leaving the area.

Outside of Twin Snakes, which was just MGS2's gameplay transplanted onto MGS1's levels, none of the sequels did this. So long as the conscious guards didn't stumble across the ones that fell asleep you were basically free to tranq everything. You are right though that MGS' stealth eventually gave way to just using the tranq gun on everything; it's actually a lot more fun not using it because it requires you to learn the level layout and take advantage of the game's mechanics.

MGS2 has a lot of tighter spaces that still almost force you to use it though. Specifically strut connecting bridges and the processing facility come to mind. People will claim you can just use hanging, but on harder difficulties there are so many guards in locations that someone will see you hanging because all angles are covered.

I will say that the whole investigation aspect probably should have continued being a thing when things became more open in MGS3 and MGS4 though.

The Tranq Gun in general just took a lot away from MGS in my opinion, but at least in MGS3 and MGS4 it didn't feel quite as forced to me.

All of this

A lot of this is why I find it odd when people say I'm crazy for saying MGS1 had the best atmosphere. MGS4 is when it really started getting to ridiculous with it though I think. (or maybe it's just becuase by the time MGS4 came out I had graduated high school and was old enough to notice?)

I feel like MGSV toned it down a lot but I can't tell if Kojima was making a conscious effort to be more gritty as he said he was or if it was just an effect of having almost no story at all.

Edit: Also totally agree with how gimmicky everything gets after Shell 1. It was really jarring on the last playthrough I did a year or two ago.

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

MGS2 has a lot of tighter spaces that still almost force you to use it though. Specifically strut connecting bridges and the processing facility come to mind. People will claim you can just use hanging, but on harder difficulties there are so many guards in locations that someone will see you hanging because all angles are covered.

This is actually a symptom of a greater problem in the MGS series. The design teams have a really fucking awful grasp of implementing scaling difficulty levels. For how much the current fanbase wanks itself off over Extreme challenges, none of the games have particularly felt designed around difficulties greater than Normal IMO.

This is something you can see in MGS, as the soliton radar is turned off and the game becomes a lot more cumbersome without it as the camera angles seem to be designed around its use. MGS also features some shoddy level design in conjunction with guard/camera layout near the end. (specifically how narrow everything is inside the Blast Furnace and Rex Hanger while also having nothin but sound grates around you)

Without trying it, I'd wonder just how much more manageable the locations in MGS2 would be without the tranq when guard vision is reduced to "normal" levels, as well as number of patrols.

Edit: I'm aware that the difficulties were changed with the various region releases of MGS (and MGS2?) so if someone has more info on how it worked or was different with the Japanese releases I'd like to hear them.

 

[Gravemind]

I just stumbled upon yet another insane tweet thread from that gimmicky Twitter account I've posted about previously and, considering we've talked a bit about Raiden recently, I feel compelled to subject the rest of you to this bullshit as well.

https://archive.vn/KpE30

Spoiler: "Raiden is TRANS": The Thread

I think this one hidden reply sums up this retard's thread pretty well.

 

[blablabla]

kojima fucking suck as a writer and the only good games are the msx ones, solid and 3

 

[Groundbreaking-maize]

Edit: Also Olga is the only great boss in MGS2, as on harder difficulties stealth can actually play a key factor in the fight. Fatman is a close second because it tried something new with the bomb disposal bits. The rest are meh to complete fucking shit.

Harrier works despite being a photocopy of the hind fight.

 

[X Pac Heat]

Harrier works despite being a photocopy of the hind fight.

Harrier is okay I guess. I was going to complain about how on harder difficulties you have to legit use invincibility frames to avoid damage but then I think that was also something janky like that with the Hind fight too in MGS1.

 

[Anusbeard]

Best Metal Gear game is Peace Walker
In terms of gameplay, challenge, boss fights, equipment variety, and even multiplayer, PW is peak metal gear.
Which game does any of those things better?

 

[Friendly Primarina]

Edit: I'm aware that the difficulties were changed with the various region releases of MGS (and MGS2?) so if someone has more info on how it worked or was different with the Japanese releases I'd like to hear them.

From what I understand:
MGS1
US: easy > normal > hard > extreme
JP: only one difficulty; equivalent to easy in US/ Integral had very easy > easy > normal > hard > extreme
MGS2/3:
US: very easy > easy > normal > hard > extreme
JP: easy > normal > hard > very hard > extreme

Some other differences

kojima fucking suck as a writer and the only good games are the msx ones, solid and 3

You mean you didn't like Johnny proposing to Meryl in the middle of a gunfight? Or Meryl pointing a loaded gun at Campbell?

 

[I-chi]

kojima fucking suck as a writer and the only good games are the msx ones, solid and 3

It makes me wonder who was doing the writing then for Policenauts and Snatcher. I managed to find a working and translated rom for the former, and it's actually a pretty good fucking ride so far. I mean it's the Fifth Element In Space basically, but there's this weird charm to the presentation, the dialogue, and all the little bits of gloss. Makes me wish we'd get some more VN/Shooting Gallery styled titles from him again sometime.

 

[blablabla]

It makes me wonder who was doing the writing then for Policenauts and Snatcher. I managed to find a working and translated rom for the former, and it's actually a pretty good fucking ride so far. I mean it's the Fifth Element In Space basically, but there's this weird charm to the presentation, the dialogue, and all the little bits of gloss. Makes me wish we'd get some more VN/Shooting Gallery styled titles from him again sometime.

policenauts and snatcher are lethal weapons and blade runner.
kojima is at his best when he straight up steals and add his weird flavour. jut like tarantino

 

[Mary the Goldsmith]

I just stumbled upon yet another insane tweet thread from that gimmicky Twitter account I've posted about previously and, considering we've talked a bit about Raiden recently, I feel compelled to subject the rest of you to this bullshit as well.
(Archive link pending. It's stuck in an exceptionally long queue at the moment.)

Spoiler: "Raiden is TRANS": The Thread

View attachment 2164132View attachment 2164133View attachment 2164134View attachment 2164135View attachment 2164136

I think this one hidden reply sums up this retard's thread pretty well.
View attachment 2164155

I'll never understand these retard's obsession with characters being trans, I remember a few years ago in a Jojo Subreddit there was some retard arguing that Jotaro was trans, because reasons, same with the HP fandom and the "Snape is trans" bullshit.

 

[X Pac Heat]

Best Metal Gear game is Peace Walker
In terms of gameplay, challenge, boss fights, equipment variety, and even multiplayer, PW is peak metal gear.
Which game does any of those things better?

I don't know how it plays on PS3/Xbox 360, but it was total ass on PSP. Boss Fights in particular are grindy bullshit that I heard he directly lifted from Monster Hunter or something.

 

[draggs]

It's actually interesting you say that because I'd argue that MGS2 was the only one in the series that tried to discourage just tranquilizing everything, or at the very least asked you to weigh your options. If you left a guard unattended for too long, his CO will come on over the radio and ask why he's late for his status report. Eventually, he'll send a squad over to investigate. There were ways around it of course such as hiding the body and waiting for everyone to go away, but it wasn't just tranqing a guard and forgetting about him. Hell even the cheese method of just running out of the area and coming back to restart the CO's conversation required you to at least be aware of where you are and you had to be quick in leaving the area.

Outside of Twin Snakes, which was just MGS2's gameplay transplanted onto MGS1's levels, none of the sequels did this. So long as the conscious guards didn't stumble across the ones that fell asleep you were basically free to tranq everything. You are right though that MGS' stealth eventually gave way to just using the tranq gun on everything; it's actually a lot more fun not using it because it requires you to learn the level layout and take advantage of the game's mechanics.

I only ever played on normal difficulty I think and I played MGS2 a lot when it came out and the number of times I was in an area long enough for the CO to come on the radio and send a squad out to investigate I could count on one hand

If you were a normie 12 year old playing it you could tranq your way through almost the whole game

 

[Duncan Hills Coffee]

I only ever played on normal difficulty I think and I played MGS2 a lot when it came out and the number of times I was in an area long enough for the CO to come on the radio and send a squad out to investigate I could count on one hand

I don't know what this says about me but I would frequently have the CO call in Strut F (the warehouse) especially. Strut F has a lot of neat shit lying about and I always spent a lot of time scrounging up everything, which inevitably led to the CO checks. Although its layout made it easy to hide soldiers.

Also Strut E had a remarkably short time between CO checks, probably because the room is so small. It's not really an issue unless you're on Hard and have to wait for the bomb to show on the conveyor belt.

 

[LightDragonman1]

I probably should replay MGS2 and MGS3 some time soon. Having gone on a stealth game marathon over the past few months (played through the Thief trilogy, Splinter Cell Chaos Theory, Hitman Blood Money, Mark Of The Ninja, and replayed Escape From Butcher Bay and Dishonored), it would be interesting to see how they compare now that I have more experience with the genre.

For what its worth though, I think that MGS2 and MGS3, while they are perhaps not the most intricate in terms of stealth mechanics, still beat the others in the genre that I've mentioned above, at least regarding story and attention to detail.

 

[Anusbeard]

I don't know how it plays on PS3/Xbox 360, but it was total ass on PSP. Boss Fights in particular are grindy bullshit that I heard he directly lifted from Monster Hunter or something.

lmao I actually forgot it was a PSP game originally. I remember now how much it sucked with the PSP controls, but I mainly played it on the PS Vita which is an amazing experience.

The boss fights aren't any more grindy than other metal gear bossfights. The Monster Hunter thing you heard is probably because there is an actual Monster Hunter crossover mission where you have to hunt a Tigrex. There's also a weird bonus mission where you go on a date with Paz and talk to her with codec commands until she's happy enough to join you in the love box. You can also chase her around in her underwear, hit her with the stun rod, put her in a chokehold, etc. Peace Walker is Kojima unchained

 

[Ruin]

Gamers really only have themselves to blame for MGSV. Everyone whined and bitched so much about MGS4 being so cutscene heavy they just gave everyone what the thought they wanted and stripped out the story.