Metal Gear

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Oh, I could go on and on about the plot, but TL;DR it isn't just the final fight that has Raiden change.
Right after Mexico he's already getting incredibly emotional and unstable after what Armstrong and the other PMC's have been doing to the kids they kidnapped, and right after he has Doktor flip off his pain inhibitors before the fight with Monsoon he says "Jack is back." The immediate aftermath of the fight with Jetstream Sam where he learns the man was almost entirely human and yet such a strong opponent begins reinforcing the idea that the more you want to do something, especially for its own sake, the better you are at it. Its why you have the callback to the first fight with Sam when he draws Sam's sword as part of the fight with Armstrong and says he's no longer using his sword as a tool of justice, and is leaving it implied that he's drawing it in anger and vengeance, which has Amstrong show he's finally serious by throwing away the glasses. Everything that happens in the epilogue where he quotes Armstrong and begins what is most likely a one-man killing spree in all the world's worst hotspots is nothing more than the inevitable result of adopting Sam's philosophies. Remember, an end to the pointless wars and futile deaths of all those PMC soliders is something Raiden was fighting for just as much as Armstrong was, even if he disagreed with how Armstrong was going about it, or Armstrong's views on the ideal world. There's a reason the final fight song is named "It Has to Be This Way", and pay attention to the lyrics next time you listen. TL:DR: Revengeance is ultimately the opposite of a hero's story, where he confronts adversity and his past and makes the hard choices to rise above that, and proves his moral superiority over the villain by doing so, and instead Raiden makes the easy choices, throwing away his name and returning to being Jack the Ripper in order to defeat the villain, accepting parts of said villain's moral views in the process.
 
Snekposter said:
Oh, I could go on and on about the plot, but TL;DR it isn't just the final fight that has Raiden change.
Right after Mexico he's already getting incredibly emotional and unstable after what Armstrong and the other PMC's have been doing to the kids they kidnapped, and right after he has Doktor flip off his pain inhibitors before the fight with Monsoon he says "Jack is back." The immediate aftermath of the fight with Jetstream Sam where he learns the man was almost entirely human and yet such a strong opponent begins reinforcing the idea that the more you want to do something, especially for its own sake, the better you are at it. Its why you have the callback to the first fight with Sam when he draws Sam's sword as part of the fight with Armstrong and says he's no longer using his sword as a tool of justice, and is leaving it implied that he's drawing it in anger and vengeance, which has Amstrong show he's finally serious by throwing away the glasses. Everything that happens in the epilogue where he quotes Armstrong and begins what is most likely a one-man killing spree in all the world's worst hotspots is nothing more than the inevitable result of adopting Sam's philosophies. Remember, an end to the pointless wars and futile deaths of all those PMC soliders is something Raiden was fighting for just as much as Armstrong was, even if he disagreed with how Armstrong was going about it, or Armstrong's views on the ideal world. There's a reason the final fight song is named "It Has to Be This Way", and pay attention to the lyrics next time you listen. TL:biggrin:R: Revengeance is ultimately the opposite of a hero's story, where he confronts adversity and his past and makes the hard choices to rise above that, and proves his moral superiority over the villain by doing so, and instead Raiden makes the easy choices, throwing away his name and returning to being Jack the Ripper in order to defeat the villain, accepting parts of said villain's moral views in the process.
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Revengeance needs a sequel, and it's unfortunate that it might never happen given the recent state of Konami and because the Metal Gear franchise is basically dead at this point.
 
Duncan Hills Coffee said:
Revengeance needs a sequel, and it's unfortunate that it might never happen given the recent state of Konami and because the Metal Gear franchise is basically dead at this point.
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I remember their being a brief tease of it during a sizzle reel at a Sony presentation years ago
 
Metal Gear will always be a series near and dear to my heart because of my friends who had such a passion for it when I was a child. I've never actually completed any of the games myself but I used to watch them play it all the time. I remember thinking how smart my friends must be because when they'd play it things would always inevitably devolve into long philosophical discussions about what certain aspects of the game really meant and such. I always wish I could have understood it back then, but I was really too young and innocent at the time.
 
DDBCAE CBAADCBE said:
Metal Gear will always be a series near and dear to my heart because of my friends who had such a passion for it when I was a child. I've never actually completed any of the games myself but I used to watch them play it all the time. I remember thinking how smart my friends must be because when they'd play it things would always inevitably devolve into long philosophical discussions about what certain aspects of the game really meant and such. I always wish I could have understood it back then, but I was really too young and innocent at the time.
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I think MGS3 was the game that helped introduce me to more philosophical ideas and critical thinking as a boy. I played M rated games before, but nothing that made me think about the nature of war and why certain people end up doing certain things.
 
Overcast said:
I think MGS3 was the game that helped introduce me to more philosophical ideas and critical thinking as a boy. I played M rated games before, but nothing that made me think about the nature of war and why certain people end up doing certain things.
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I think for me the biggest moment was when my friend pointed out that a lot of MGS3 is Snake metaphorically killing his own emotions. Something along the lines of "He killed his joy, his pain, his fear, his fury...". When I was a kid that blew my mind.
 
Are there redubs of the Solid games through 3? I certainly respect The Only Two USA Male Voice Actors That Weren't Power Ranger That Anybody Cares About but if I'm going through them one more time it wouldn't be bad to try the moonspeak for once.
 
I'm about halfway through MGS5 right now, and I'm sad to discover everyone who said the game is unfinished was right. It needed at least one more play area and a ton more new missions/side missions to come close to finished.

Still, it's an amazing game, and I don't regret playing it. It's too bad not enough unfinished content exists to hack back into the game and finish it.
 
frozenrunner said:
I'm about halfway through MGS5 right now, and I'm sad to discover everyone who said the game is unfinished was right. It needed at least one more play area and a ton more new missions/side missions to come close to finished.

Still, it's an amazing game, and I don't regret playing it. It's too bad not enough unfinished content exists to hack back into the game and finish it.
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It was the biggest gaming disappoint of 2015, imo. The game itself is fun as fuck except for the forced mobile game timers (that you can change an .ini file to make instant) and the forced online shit (that you can change to always offline). I really enjoyed going around kidnapping men and material via balloon and all the gun customization, and the fact that you can choose to run around the open world as other characters.

Just yeah, it was so obviously unfinished. Honestly I blame Kojima for being Kojima and Konami for forcing it out in such a state.
 
White Devil said:
It was the biggest gaming disappoint of 2015, imo. The game itself is fun as fuck except for the forced mobile game timers (that you can change an .ini file to make instant) and the forced online shit (that you can change to always offline). I really enjoyed going around kidnapping men and material via balloon and all the gun customization, and the fact that you can choose to run around the open world as other characters.

Just yeah, it was so obviously unfinished. Honestly I blame Kojima for being Kojima and Konami for forcing it out in such a state.
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I have sunk so much time into playing it that I can't call it a disappointment. The gameplay itself is by far the best in the series. It's so good the game is still great despite being a shadow of what it should have been. It's obvious they did a lot of playtesting of the essentials and were trying to catch up on the content when they had to cut it short and push it out the door. (I mean, with the tools they had created for themselves, creating new side (hell, even main) missions couldn't have been that difficult to do, and they still didn't do it, so they must have really been pressed for time by some bean-counter and/or couldn't even afford to record more lines from Miller and Ocelot for new briefing tapes.)

And yes, Kojima surely blew through deadline after deadline creating what we got, went way over budget, and management surely got so sick of him throwing his weight around and not following orders (like refusing their stupid idea to make Silent Hills a mobile game) that they called his bluff and fired him and told the team they had X number of days to go gold. It's obvious even in small cutscenes where major characters don't speak when they naturally would... they just ran out of budget and time to do it right.

Look at Metal Gear Survive. As far as I can tell (haven't played it yet, and may never play it), it uses almost no new assets. I'm betting the higher-ups at Konami ordered the team behind it thusly: "Make an online game with crafting and zombies using the same engine and the same assets for X amount of money and in Y number of days." The game clearly exists to follow dumb gaming trends and to milk more profit out of the engine they sunk all that time and money into developing, and it exists for no other reason. (It may have been loosely based on an idea from Kojima, but that's not a product he would have put out.)

(Similarly, MGSV's online still works after all this time because, I'm sure, they're looking at how much the game is still bringing in through Steam sales, lookout at how little it costs to run the servers, looking at how much money Kojima wasted, and they're just printing money on a product that old. Konami is in "exploit our IPs and don't make anything else" mode, which is why we got animated Castlevania at all.)

And the core gameplay is so good that I am actually considering getting Survive on sale. MGSV is a gaming disappointment, sure, but it could have been worse.
 
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frozenrunner said:
I have sunk so much time into playing it that I can't call it a disappointment. The gameplay itself is by far the best in the series. It's so good the game is still great despite being a shadow of what it should have been. It's obvious they did a lot of playtesting of the essentials and were trying to catch up on the content when they had to cut it short and push it out the door. (I mean, with the tools they had created for themselves, creating new side (hell, even main) missions couldn't have been that difficult to do, and they still didn't do it, so they must have really been pressed for time by some bean-counter and/or couldn't even afford to record more lines from Miller and Ocelot for new briefing tapes.)

And yes, Kojima surely blew through deadline after deadline creating what we got, went way over budget, and management surely got so sick of him throwing his weight around and not following orders (like refusing their stupid idea to make Silent Hills a mobile game) that they called his bluff and fired him and told the team they had X number of days to go gold. It's obvious even in small cutscenes where major characters don't speak when they naturally would... they just ran out of budget and time to do it right.

Look at Metal Gear Survive. As far as I can tell (haven't played it yet, and may never play it), it uses almost no new assets. I'm betting the higher-ups at Konami ordered the team behind it thusly: "Make an online game with crafting and zombies using the same engine and the same assets for X amount of money and in Y number of days." The game clearly exists to follow dumb gaming trends and to milk more profit out of the engine they sunk all that time and money into developing, and it exists for no other reason. (It may have been loosely based on an idea from Kojima, but that's not a product he would have put out.)
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Not that I don't agree that Konami is shit but Death Stranding kinda proved Kojima will absolutely do some dumb shit if he's left to his own devices with no supervision.
 
I call MGSV a disappointment simply because as you said; the potential is all there. Everything in it was great, up until a point. It will essentially remain an unfinished masterpiece. Isn't that disappointing to you?
 
Ruin said:
Not that I don't agree that Konami is shit but Death Stranding kinda proved Kojima will absolutely do some dumb shit if he's left to his own devices with no supervision.
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Oh, I'm not defending Kojima in this case. The man is an extremely talented game designer, but it's obvious his ego is huge and that he can't be steered/edited even when he needs to be. And he needs a lot of guidance. I think he's his own worst enemy, and I've thought that since MGS2. (It's a great game, but the story is not genius. It's a huge fucking mess.)

MGSV was the product of an unaccountable rockstar asshole designer colliding with a restructuring, profit-obsessed gaming company that was tired of making games and just wanted to make money. It was a perfect shitstorm that damaged the credibility of everyone involved while shortchanging the audience. Still, it's a great game... what little game there is.

White Devil said:
I call MGSV a disappointment simply because as you said; the potential is all there. Everything in it was great, up until a point. It will essentially remain an unfinished masterpiece. Isn't that disappointing to you?
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It definitely is. I'm just saying I've enjoyed playing it so much I don't think of it negatively. But it literally is disappointing.
 
frozenrunner said:
I'm about halfway through MGS5 right now, and I'm sad to discover everyone who said the game is unfinished was right. It needed at least one more play area and a ton more new missions/side missions to come close to finished.

Still, it's an amazing game, and I don't regret playing it. It's too bad not enough unfinished content exists to hack back into the game and finish it.
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It has the best stealth gameplay I've ever experienced. The only game that comes close to it in terms of quality is Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory.
 
I hate to say MGS V is unfinished, because by all accounts there wasn't much more he could do with the game. We know for a fact he did dumb shit like scrap a fully functional battle gear because "it wasn't balanced" and there are a ton of accounts that Kingdom of the Flies was scrapped early in development because he thought it took away from The Truth mission.

Most of the problems with the game feel much more like a guy getting into open world development 20 years after the fact than actually being unfinished after 5+ years of development. The actual core gameplay is absolutely amazing. The biggest problem is that the open world just feels devoid of stuff, which funny enough with PC mods can be helped (Tank/Helicopter patrols in free roam are locked for some reason, as are tiered Tank/Helicopter reinforcements. Mods have also unlocked random Skull Unit attacks but I don't know if some programming was used for those or if they were just locked)

The game honestly falls apart when you get to Africa. Making a 2nd open map was a mistake. I honestly can't tell if Africa was just kind of thrown together or if that was actually what he wanted, it could go either way, but it's just a big massive empty space. Africa would have benefited greatly from either being a bunch of smaller, yet still large and detailed base levels. Africa is mostly there just for you to have a long ass travel time to either the Oil Field, Airbase, a military camp and the mansion. Wouldn't it have been much better if instead of having a big open world that was only there to pad travel time, we had Camp Omega sized versions of those locations? With lots of different routes and interiors to objectives?

I could almost forgive the large open waste that is Africa if he actually had us fight Metal Gear in it, but Metal Gear is ONLY reserved for Afghanistan...

I still love MGS V for the gameplay it does provide in Afghanistan, but Africa just feels like a waste. I'm really hoping that some good modders manage to make something great with the new mission creation tools that have popped up this year.
 
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