Metal Gear

[Dr J]

she directly made the baseline for them, and was going to finish them off but got nabbled by Skullface, because he knew she was doing just that.

Its why they made so much about her making A.I.'s in Peacewalker.

So indirectly, Huey saved the world by killing his once lover for the most petty fucking reason ever.

Oh.

I tend to ignore MGSV for the lore, because it retcons so much

 

[Wesker]

Oh.

I tend to ignore MGSV for the lore, because it retcons so much

I've never seen it as canon. Nothing in it has any relevance to anything if you remove it.

 

[Zenos Yae Viator]

Oh.

I tend to ignore MGSV for the lore, because it retcons so much

Not exactly, adding new details and even twists aren't retcons, simply put the ending to MGSV explains how you can kill Big Boss twice in the first two MSX games, because you literally did, his body double first.
Skullface's existence doesn't retcon anything either, like I said, new details aren't retcons.

I've never seen it as canon. Nothing in it has any relevance to anything if you remove it.

Well it is, simple as that, MGSV is one of the most important games in terms of explaining character motivations, its hugely flawed, but there's alot of really good story framing and cinematography under the bad.

 

[Visa Credit]

I like MGSV and it's lore, a lot more than something like MGS4. The deeper you look into MGSV, the more you learn how insidious Cipher/Zero really is and how a shadowy organization operates. It's also very similar to MGS2 in ways that tragically no one really talks about, even down to having a "tanker-plant" (GZ-TPP) intro to full game sequence.

Same with subverting the player's expectation of 'playing as the real Snake'. Many people did not like MGS2 at first, but with time people learned to appreciate it to the point where it's a lot of the fans favourite game in the series now. It makes me wonder when people will come around to appreciating MGSV....

 

[Problematic User Forever]

Not exactly, adding new details and even twists aren't retcons, simply put the ending to MGSV explains how you can kill Big Boss twice in the first two MSX games, because you literally did, his body double first.

I know I sound like a broken record but this was already explained in Metal Gear 2.

I wish Kojima didn't quit though. I'd love a whole game devoted to how Raven survived being blown up in a tank or how Liquid survived a crashing Hind D.

But in all seriousness, the most interesting thing about MGS V is the idea that it's all in Big Bosses head. But Kojima fanboys are way too retarded to realize this until a decade later just like all the crap pointing to MGS2 actually being VR the whole time.

 

[Zenos Yae Viator]

I know I sound like a broken record but this was already explained in Metal Gear 2.

I wish Kojima didn't quit though. I'd love a whole game devoted to how Raven survived being blown up in a tank or how Liquid survived a crashing Hind D.

But in all seriousness, the most interesting thing about MGS V is the idea that it's all in Big Bosses head. But Kojima fanboys are way too retarded to realize this until a decade later just like all the crap pointing to MGS2 actually being VR the whole time.

It all being VR is as dumb as "its all a dream", there isn't enough evidence of this, and it doesn't particularly make any sense thematically, they didn't need to control Raiden in VR, they perfectly controlled Raiden's every fucking moment of his life.

 

[Dr J]

Not exactly, adding new details and even twists aren't retcons, simply put the ending to MGSV explains how you can kill Big Boss twice in the first two MSX games

But that IS a big retcon, and it's a stupid one. The whole point of MG1 and the reveal that Big Boss was behind Outer Heaven in the first place is that he betrayed his unit. Now, with MGSV suggesting you didn't kill Big Boss, you just killed Venom Snake, it completely changes the context not just of Metal Gear 1 but the entire backstory of the series, and makes Solid Snake's enmity towards Big Boss completely pointless, because Big Boss didn't betray his unit, he just used Solid Snake to eliminate a rival faction

Well it is, simple as that, MGSV is one of the most important games in terms of explaining character motivations,

No it isn't. Why? Because MGSV radically changes most of the characters.

Changes Big Boss
Changes Miller
Changes Ocelot
Changes Liquid
Changes Psycho Mantis
Changes Major Zero
Even changes Otacon, and not for the better, because the presence of Otacon Sr really cheapens the Otacon character. For one, are we really supposed to believe that Otacon didn't know REX was a nuclear weapons platform when his dad built not one, not two but three Metal Gears himself, including one very similar to the one Otacon ultimately built?

It's also very similar to MGS2 in ways that tragically no one really talks about, even down to having a "tanker-plant" (GZ-TPP) intro to full game sequence.

Same with subverting the player's expectation of 'playing as the real Snake'. Many people did not like MGS2 at first, but with time people learned to appreciate it to the point where it's a lot of the fans favourite game in the series now. It makes me wonder when people will come around to appreciating MGSV....

It was talked about, and not positively. More in the sense that Kojima is just rehashing old ideas, ideas that he executed much better in MGS2

Don't get me wrong. In terms of gameplay, MGSV is a pretty good game. But in terms of story, it's really the beginning of Kojima's decline as a creator. Massively pretentious. Rehashing old ideas. Sucking the dick of Hollywood, for the English version at least and, to top it all off, it's not even fucking finished.

 

[Zenos Yae Viator]

No it isn't. Why? Because MGSV radically changes most of the characters.

Changes Big Boss
Changes Miller
Changes Ocelot
Changes Liquid
Changes Psycho Mantis
Changes Major Zero
Even changes Otacon, and not for the better, because the presence of Otacon Sr really cheapens the Otacon character. For one, are we really supposed to believe that Otacon didn't know REX was a nuclear weapons platform when his dad built not one, not two but three Metal Gears himself, including one very similar to the one Otacon ultimately built?

It adds a second "Big Boss" it doesn't really change the OG much, he's cemented as a warmonger asshole, which he is, by this game.

We knew next to fucking nothing about Master Miller before the two games he really stars in, so lol no.

Ocelot is exactly the fucking same as always, sickeningly sweet devoted to Big Boss and willing to do absolutely anything to anyone for him

How the fuck did it change Liquid? he's a angry rambunctious little shit, same as he was when we fight him in MGS1

I give you Psycho Mantis.

Major Zero's twist in this game is that he infact was not as angry or hostile with Big Boss as we thought, which actually makes sense, dude loved the man, so it never really jived he supposedly knifed him so hard, turns out he didn't, and Skullface instigated their feud largely.

and Otacon wasn't changed for shit, Huey was always given the basic plans for Metal Gear by that Ruskie, and VERY likely Otacon was never told explicitly what his dad did, remember, most of the events of these games are pretty hush hush, the general public is never really told any of this shit, Otacon was likely told he was just going to make a cool mech based off these designs his dad had, he was a naive dweeb.

 

[UnknownUser]

The biggest thing MGSV changed story wise is showing us Ocelot as a really boring person. Old and young Ocelot were zany as fuck and fun villains or kinda allies. MGSV Ocelot is just Troy Baker with a southern accent and stupid looking revolver.

 

[Zenos Yae Viator]

The biggest thing MGSV changed story wise is showing us Ocelot as a really boring person. Old and young Ocelot were zany as fuck and fun villains or kinda allies. MGSV Ocelot is just Troy Baker with a southern accent and stupid looking revolver.

its more the tone of the game than anything, there weren't alot of fun times in Diamond Dogs, it was a pretty fucking bleak timeperiod for the franchise, plus Ocelot is undercover again, this time supporting a Big Boss he knows is just a decoy, well he knows and "doesn't" know due to hypnosis.

MGSV is, essentially the game where everything when to shit, and sets up the setting's dire bullshit that we know.

 

[Dr J]

It adds a second "Big Boss" it doesn't really change the OG much, he's cemented as a warmonger asshole, which he is, by this game.

Yes, but Solid Snake would have known that, before Outer Heaven

Snake says in MGS4 that he refused to use CQC because it didn't feel right to use techniques taught to him by a man who betrayed his unit (really, because the CQC mechanics didn't exist before MGS3 so they couldn't have been implemented in MGS1 & 2). That's how strongly Snake feels about Big Boss' betrayal. Then we get to MGSV and it turns out Big Boss didn't betray anyone for shit. Venom and Miller formed a fucking rival faction, so he took them out

We knew next to fucking nothing about Master Miller before the two games he really stars in, so lol no.

Even with his limited backstory, Peace Walker and, to a greater extent, MGSV completely change his character from a humble recruit trainer into some embittered, crippled, 4D Chessmaster looking to take out Big Boss

Ocelot is exactly the fucking same as always, sickeningly sweet devoted to Big Boss and willing to do absolutely anything to anyone for him

MGSV turned him into Miller 'Cowboy version', instead of the devious, backstabbing master schemer who played everybody against each other and was only out for himself that he was previously

How the fuck did it change Liquid? he's a angry rambunctious little shit, same as he was when we fight him in MGS1

Well firstly, that shows no character development, and secondly, Liquid in MGS1 never met Big Boss (and yes, technically he didn't meet him in MGSV, either) and hated Solid Snake because he grew up believing himself to be inferior, rather than superior. MGSV changes the entire character of that by having him meet, who he believes to be, Big Boss, and having them have an angsty confrontation where 'Big Boss' effectively tells him that he's responsible for his own life and his own choices.

Major Zero's twist in this game is that he infact was not as angry or hostile with Big Boss as we thought, which actually makes sense, dude loved the man, so it never really jived he supposedly knifed him so hard, turns out he didn't, and Skullface instigated their feud largely.

So you admit that it changes the entire character of their confrontation.

And again, the whole point of Big Boss' MGS3 support team turning out to be horrible people is that war has changed them (literally 'War transforms us, into beasts'). By retconning it so that Major Zero was crippled and largely unaware, and Skullface instigated most of their conflict, Kojima has completely pissed all over that message.

and Otacon wasn't changed for shit, Huey was always given the basic plans for Metal Gear by that Ruskie, and VERY likely Otacon was never told explicitly what his dad did, remember, most of the events of these games are pretty hush hush, the general public is never really told any of this shit, Otacon was likely told he was just going to make a cool mech based off these designs his dad had, he was a naive dweeb.

Everything changed about Otacon. Firstly, for Huey and Strangelove, as depicted, to be his parents, Kojima made Otacon about ten years younger. Improbably young, because you generally have to be about 25/26 to have your PhD (and he is Dr Emmerich). It seems improbable that the ArmsTech CEO would choose someone who's presumably just gotten his PhD to helm a multi-million dollar development of a next generation nuclear weapons theatre missile defence.

Not to mention that Otacon being younger means that him fucking his stepmum was stat rape, and Huey killing his mum meant that, rather than the whole thing being tragic and psychologically damaging for Otacon, the whole thing was just desserts for his dad being an asshole.

Also, scientists don't read research? Otacon wouldn't have once looked at his dad's research papers? Would have once thought 'Hey, this theatre missile defence I'm developing is eerily similar to this nuclear weapons delivery platform my father developed once'?

Also, am I the only one who thinks it's dumb that the parents of all the MGS characters seem to know each other?

 

[Zenos Yae Viator]

Snake says in MGS4 that he refused to use CQC because it didn't feel right to use techniques taught to him by a man who betrayed his unit (really, because the CQC mechanics didn't exist before MGS3 so they couldn't have been implemented in MGS1 & 2). That's how strongly Snake feels about Big Boss' betrayal. Then we get to MGSV and it turns out Big Boss didn't betray anyone for shit. Venom and Miller formed a fucking rival faction, so he took them out

its very likely that Snake only ever met one of the Big Bosses prior to MGS1, so to him its some grand betrayal, but in reality, he simply suddenly runs into Venom in MGS1 and thinks he betrayed him, when in reality OG Big Boss sent him there to kill him.

Even with his limited backstory, Peace Walker and, to a greater extent, MGSV completely change his character from a humble recruit trainer into some embittered, crippled, 4D Chessmaster looking to take out Big Boss

Baffling that you dislike that Liquid remains largely the same, but are mad that Miller's character developed.. and one of his defining traits is he hates betrayal, and Big Boss leaving him out of the Zanzibar Land plan and dumping him with Venom is a massive betrayal, its effectively "you really didn't matter much to me at all" so yea, it makes total sense he would devote himself to fucking ending him.

And again, the whole point of Big Boss' MGS3 support team turning out to be horrible people is that war has changed them (literally 'War transforms us, into beasts'). By retconning it so that Major Zero was crippled and largely unaware, and Skullface instigated most of their conflict, Kojima has completely pissed all over that message.

Zero still is a horrible person, he's just less horrible to Big Boss, he still wants to control the world to make some grand vision, he just wants Big Boss to be the front man, even to the very end, he even had the Patriots hard coded to keep him "alive", likely ordered before he took the big sleep forever.

I kind of like that the entire setting went entirely to shit for literally 40 years because a burn victim in a domino mask hated every big player involved in the plot so much he made sure to ruin all their plans and lives behind the scenes and then promptly fucking died before he could do anything with his own plans, he's a giant splinter in everyone's eyes, spite for spites sakes asshole.

 

[Dr J]

its very likely that Snake only ever met one of the Big Bosses prior to MGS1, so to him its some grand betrayal, but in reality, he simply suddenly runs into Venom in MGS1 and thinks he betrayed him, when in reality OG Big Boss sent him there to kill him.

It's dumb. It completely changes the context of Metal Gear and the series as a whole

Baffling that you dislike that Liquid remains largely the same

Because what's the point of him being there? He's not even there in a cute 'Aww, Baby Liquid' way to sell cute Baby Liquid merch, like Baby Yoda, the Muppet Babies or Dragon Ball Daima. He's just...there

He doesn't really have an arc because we see from MGSV that he's pretty much in the same place he was by MGS1

but are mad that Miller's character developed

Miller's character didn't develop. Kojima basically created a completely new character.

Which is another thing with MGSV. It's clear that Kojima was getting tired with the series by this point, and wanted to do new things. But Metal Gear was what sold.

Zero still is a horrible person, he's just less horrible to Big Boss, he still wants to control the world to make some grand vision

But the point of the whole thing is that they had ideological differences, and the backdrop of the series is ultimately the conflict between them. MGSV changed the conflict between them

 

[Zenos Yae Viator]

But the point of the whole thing is that they had ideological differences, and the backdrop of the series is ultimately the conflict between them. MGSV changed the conflict between them

Sort of irrelevent, both go into coma's around the same few years, their conflict they started carries forth without either of them the same.

 

[Dr J]

Sort of irrelevent, both go into coma's around the same few years, their conflict they started carries forth without either of them the same.

It's stupid.

Like I said, I liked MGSV for the gameplay (what there was of it, with some caveats). I completely ignore it as part of the MGS canon. Even Peace Walker's sort of borderline.

 

[Zenos Yae Viator]

It's stupid.

Like I said, I liked MGSV for the gameplay (what there was of it, with some caveats). I completely ignore it as part of the MGS canon. Even Peace Walker's sort of borderline.

all this is irrelevant isn't it? the game was never finished and the franchise will never get anything but remakes, its truely fucking joever.

 

[Aunt Carol]

The biggest thing MGSV changed story wise is showing us Ocelot as a really boring person. Old and young Ocelot were zany as fuck and fun villains or kinda allies. MGSV Ocelot is just Troy Baker with a southern accent and stupid looking revolver.

He already had a ton of business cards printed, so he couldn't change his callsign to Quaaludes Ocelot.

Venom being what he was, there needed to be someone calm and consistent close by to help keep him on the rails they needed. Ocelot had to tone down the batshit to the lower level of "calmly hand loaded gun to undead lady who tried to kill you" and less "loudly narrate reloading kink."

Complete guess but as much as we saw Ocelot's "sleepwalking cowboy" era on Mother Base II, he was still running his double/triple agent gigs back home and probably keeping up the Crazy Ivan energy. Most people can't dip for 9 years without taking an insurmountable hit to their career progress, which is why Big Boss' comeback should be an inspiration to women in the workplace, very feminist of Kojima.

 

[Dr J]

all this is irrelevant isn't it? the game was never finished and the franchise will never get anything but remakes, its truely fucking joever.

Yeah but that's fine. The series was over with MGS4 and Solid Snake looking for a quiet place to die. We really didn't need endless Big Boss prequels

 

[Wesker]

the game was never finished

 

[Snekposter]

All I'm going to say about the plot and character sperging is that at some point Kojima crawled so far up his own ass he went from weird and hilarious to weird and incomprehensible, and that it started somewhere around MGS4.