Metal Gear

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So basically you think what would work best for the MSX games is making a full-on Evil Dad Finally Respects You Simulator. Sounds legit.

And add the Last Day in Outer Heaven tumblr artist as a consultant.

"Well, bitches, are we right? I have heard the cure for male loneliness is becoming a Cyber Ninja, lets try that out, bros."
" *in synch* Sounds good"
That would unironically work pretty well if you as the player get to watch your crew of (twice) abandoned ex-child soldiers build a reputation, be able to afford more augments, file incorporation papers--next thing you know you're one of the background PMCs in MGR:R.
 
Evil Dad Finally Respects You Simulator. Sounds legit.

Looking back, that is kind of Solid and Big Boss's relationship in a nutshell, isnt it? The Solid series is basically dealing with the consequences of their confrontations.

Edit: Which is funny because the father and son thing is technically a retcon.

And add the Last Day in Outer Heaven tumblr artist as a consultant.

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Another character that needs to "join" the crew is Kyle Schneider as he is the leader of the rebels against the Outer Heaven uprising and thus a perfect window to the situation from a local's perspective, granting Snake a precious information. We could have him providing "side missions" in the form of hostage rescues, with Kyle insisting that these are "his people", not only that but they can also help Snake by creating a counter uprising to keep the enemy forces busy, allowing an easier time for the player. There should be other rewards for rescues as they provide information, hints, rare resources and weapons. Show Kyle expressing a deep attachment to his men and women he is leading (totally not setting up that almost everyone of them dies when O.H is bombed which leads to Kyle being barely saved from death by Big Boss)
It sounds like you're thinking of it being more like V in terms of having side missions, rescuing civilians, support crew and thusly a more open world to accommodate this, but I think that will be detrimental. It's a single base you're infiltrating and your mission is pretty straightforward despite the twists. Making it more open world and putting in PW or V abduction and staffing mechanics just wouldn't fit IMO. I think they'll need to practice some restraint and just make it like MGS1 in terms of scope: a lone man on a somewhat linear mission through an enemy base. It doesn't need to be more than that.

I like everything else you've said, though.

My main thought is how they're going to deal with the Venom angle (they would definitely pretend he exists, sorry @Chapalapachapa). Solid Snake needs to still believe it's the real Big Boss, so any hint otherwise will have to be a subtle nod to the audience that Snake is completely oblivious to.

For what it's worth, I like the general idea behind the Venom twist from V because it makes the mysticism surrounding Big Boss in the later games less absurd. The seemingly impossible level of global notoriety and proficiency attributed to him was only possible because there was more than one of him. Pity everything else about MGSV lore-wise is stupid.
 
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It made sense that the Snake Eater crew felt that way about her and I could buy Strangelove too but feels like too many others were feeling that way to the point it almost makes her a Christ like figure.
In this version of history, she is basically, her career is insane when you throw it on the table, and she essentially Won WW2, out of all the people called "Legendary Soldier" she's absolutely the most Legendary.
 
@The handsome tard
I like the idea. Truly.

I never played MG1 on my own, or watched longplay of said game. It's kinda bulky for me and kills the purpose if everything beyond MGS1 was retconned. The whole premise of the game is the plot twist shtick in the end and (un)fortunately to me this method of storytelling is exhausted. Rather than creating this build-up for end-game sequence I would truly look after something more nuanced. This whole villain thing that expresses their secret agenda at the end kinda resembles wrongdoers from Scooby Doo.

Rather providing the thorough explanation of whole ordeal, maybe throw here'n'there glimpses of what is really going on. Like Big Boss isn't aware that his DNA was used for Les Enfates Terribles Project. He could be astonished that his base is being inflitraded by a dude lookin' alike. Final confrontation would also be more subtle giving Big Boss an impression that maybe he is being replaced, or he was being played this whole time and The Patriots are trying to replace him with someone more controllable, like Solid Snake who isn't aware of being a pawn on this chessboard.

The lore itself gives a broad methods to deliver a captivating story. Especially, due to the prequels that kinda abbandon whole idea of "bad Big Boss" for something more eligable, feasable.
 
It's a blink and you miss it moment at the end, but right before The Boss gives her final monologue she uses the Davey Crockett one last time to nuke grozni grad. I don't know how she does it from that flower field but apparently that's what that explosion is right before she says the line "Life's end. Tragic isn't it?"

So yeah she did nuke a base with scientist and blue collar workers in it for some reason. Plots kinda all over the place.
Wait, really? I must’ve missed that part. I thought The Boss fired a shell just to call in the MiGs, like some chess move to make sure you’d get vaporized if you didn’t beat her fast enough, which is a stupid PS1 ritual in itself. We need the sacred timed final boss fight.

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The Boss works better as an idea than an character. America abandoning its greatest soldier because some psycho colonel went rogue is straight out of 90s action shlock. It’s always some ex–intelligence guy, they gave their life for Uncle Sam, and in return they get a bullet or a cheap retirement watch. That’s The Boss.
 
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If any of you are art fags: a little Solid Snake sitting on Venom Snake's lap like a mall Santa, violently tugging at his horn and screaming "You're not the real Big Boss!"
"Shhhh kid okay look, Big Boss needs help sometimes..."
Given Big Boss' feelings about Santa, this is probably how Zero and Ocelot sold him on the idea of Venom in the first place.
 
and on the "good guys" getting used, lol David/Solid Snake had no concept that he was the Patriots Weapon till quite literally some time after MGS1, and he then spends the rest of his life taking them down,
He doesn't, though. I've pointed this out before, but Snake spends MGS4 derping around while Ocelot and Naomi do the plot important stuff. Hell, you could make an argument that Sunny does more to end the Patriots than Snake does.

A summary of Snake's "anti-Patriot" activities in Guns of the Patriots:

Campbell: "We need you to kill Liquid" "Okay!"
Naomi: "Come rescue me!" "Okay!"
Eva: ""I'm a Patriot. Help me protect Big Boss' corpse." "Weird, but okay!"
Otacon: "We need to prevent Liquid from taking REX's railgun. Go to Shadow Moses!" "Neat! I remember this place!"
Mei Ling: "Go and destroy GW!" "Okay *sizzling noises*"
Everyone: "It turns out the virus actually destroyed all the Patriots! You did it, Snake!"
 
Campbell: "We need you to kill Liquid" "Okay!"
Naomi: "Come rescue me!" "Okay!"
Eva: ""I'm a Patriot. Help me protect Big Boss' corpse." "Weird, but okay!"
Otacon: "We need to prevent Liquid from taking REX's railgun. Go to Shadow Moses!" "Neat! I remember this place!"
Mei Ling: "Go and destroy GW!" "Okay *sizzling noises*"
Everyone: "It turns out the virus actually destroyed all the Patriots! You did it, Snake!"
Look, Solid Snake just likes being included in things. He really needed those 50 emotional support dogs.
 
He doesn't, though. I've pointed this out before, but Snake spends MGS4 derping around while Ocelot and Naomi do the plot important stuff. Hell, you could make an argument that Sunny does more to end the Patriots than Snake does.

A summary of Snake's "anti-Patriot" activities in Guns of the Patriots:

Campbell: "We need you to kill Liquid" "Okay!"
Naomi: "Come rescue me!" "Okay!"
Eva: ""I'm a Patriot. Help me protect Big Boss' corpse." "Weird, but okay!"
Otacon: "We need to prevent Liquid from taking REX's railgun. Go to Shadow Moses!" "Neat! I remember this place!"
Mei Ling: "Go and destroy GW!" "Okay *sizzling noises*"
Everyone: "It turns out the virus actually destroyed all the Patriots! You did it, Snake!"
I mean he was just their guy to go do the things on the ground that he couldn't possibly grasp the complexity of, David's no retard, but he was never really cut out to figure out how to take out Omniscentient A.I.'s
 
America abandoning its greatest soldier because some psycho colonel went rogue is straight out of 90s action shlock. It’s always some ex–intelligence guy, they gave their life for Uncle Sam, and in return they get a bullet or a cheap retirement watch. That’s The Boss.
No one was "abandoned", the plan got fucked up, it had to be revised to avoid nuclear war, and The Boss, being the only real patriot in MG besides Solidus - made a necessary sacrifice for her country. Simple as that. As far as we know from MGS3 (pending any retarded retcons, I haven't played anything outside 3/4) The Boss is basically the only one who knows what a true soldier is supposed to be, and Snake was a retard for getting pissy at America for doing what had to be done to avoid all out nuclear war. Snake is basically like "Grrrrrr you killed my mommy/lover/mentor America, I'll never forgive you!" Meanwhile The Boss herself would 100% call Snake out for that and would remind him that the only thing that matters is the mission and loyalty to the end.

By having feelings for his comrade, Snake committed (as The Boss herself said in the beginning) "The greatest sin a soldier can commit". I think Portable Ops is when shit started to get really weird and Koji-tier melodramatic, I think Snake gave himself a Snake scar to match The Boss' like some kind of edgy teenager, and then in PeaceWalker that doofy Strangelove character was introduced and I think they had some dyke shit ongoing..... fucking taking the piss Kojima. I love MGS4, but the lore and story is mostly fucked, the portable games are fucked, and don't get me started again on MGSV. Metal Gear got special olympic after 3.
 
the plan got fucked up, it had to be revised to avoid nuclear war, and The Boss, being the only real patriot in MG besides Solidus - made a necessary sacrifice for her country.
The Boss was only there in the first place to act as a plant, though, and get the Philosophers' Legacy. You could say that this in itself is serving one's country but from BB's POV it's all retarded politics games from the suits.

I mean he was just their guy to go do the things on the ground that he couldn't possibly grasp the complexity of, David's no retard, but he was never really cut out to figure out how to take out Omniscentient A.I.'s
Like I said, he's always someone's pawn. The only time he seems to have any agency is the one time you don't play as him.

Speaking of which, I have been playing the original SoL release of MGS2 for the first time since Substance came out. God, the thermal goggles are so much easier on the eyes in this version. Substance's goggles are like wrapping a tie-dye shirt around your head and facing the sun.
 
Like I said, he's always someone's pawn.
NO shit, this is a core theme of the series, all the main characters (not just playable) have this problem, David's role as a pawn is so complete that even his rebellion against the Patriots is completely a part of their plan, which Ocelot takes advantage of, they never factored that Ocelot would make him a trojan horse for a virus.

The only person who isn't controlled is the one man who makes himself a willing pawn to another, Ocelot, he's a complete and total willing thrall to Big Boss for all eternal, likely because he's the only person he has ever considered family or loves in his entire life.
 
It sounds like you're thinking of it being more like V in terms of having side missions, rescuing civilians, support crew and thusly a more open world to accommodate this, but I think that will be detrimental. It's a single base you're infiltrating and your mission is pretty straightforward despite the twists. Making it more open world and putting in PW or V abduction and staffing mechanics just wouldn't fit IMO. I think they'll need to practice some restraint and just make it like MGS1 in terms of scope: a lone man on a somewhat linear mission through an enemy base. It doesn't need to be more than that.

Hm, in retrospect, you may have a point. I guess I had this image that sort of "bridge" both the new and old style while also bringing in stuff from the original (because hostage rescues were indeed something from the original and thus I decided to turn them into side missions that would make the player's life much easier). I dont think it would ever reach MGSV levels as I "pictured" Outer Heaven and surrounding areas as being the map, much smaller in comparison to what we had in V.

Perhaps it could follow a MGS4 style approach? Because I really wanted to draw emphasis on the conflict between Outer Heaven and local rebels so you'd know whats at stake and why Outer Heaven's senseless destruction would make many so spiteful and vengeful that they join who they were working initicially against (Big Boss) when we arrived at Zanzibar.

So yeah, you may be right that I went a tad too big in scope and something smaller is preferable, but it would also feel rather wasteful to not really expand on anything. A middle ground is preferable in this case. Good observations.
My main thought is how they're going to deal with the Venom angle (they would definitely pretend he exists, sorry @Chapalapachapa). Solid Snake needs to still believe it's the real Big Boss, so any hint otherwise will have to be a subtle nod to the audience that Snake is completely oblivious to.

I think its one of the reasons why I suggested having the big boss reveal at the end of Act 2 as a faux finale (again, the whole super computer angle is meant to almost trick normies that know the original NES version only, and even if that doesnt work, its still a neat "nod" to that version that many ancient fans grew up with in either case).

The series explored Big Boss so much that its rather pointless to keep the mystery, it was a neat twist back when the game first came out (for gaming standards at least...the whole "your commander is the bad guy" was already a well known trope back then), so its best to explore him in this phase of his life because lets be very honest here...We didnt have Big Boss truly being the leader of Outer Heaven, at all, so we would see him speaking to his men, making speeches and the neat thing is that we'd secretly have both Big Boss and Venom Snake and there would be subtle differences in their designs (the rocket punch is an obvious giveaway which one we are seeing atm but still).

In retrospect, Im not sure if there would be an ending where we see Venom Snake exchanging a final conversation with Big Boss, it sounds good on paper but would it perhaps be the sort of thing that feels rather cheesy on execution? Perhaps but at the same time, it would be weird not to adknowledge Venom in some sort of fashion since the twist of MGSV would be fresh even to normie players of the franchise.

Rather providing the thorough explanation of whole ordeal, maybe throw here'n'there glimpses of what is really going on. Like Big Boss isn't aware that his DNA was used for Les Enfates Terribles Project. He could be astonished that his base is being inflitraded by a dude lookin' alike. Final confrontation would also be more subtle giving Big Boss an impression that maybe he is being replaced, or he was being played this whole time and The Patriots are trying to replace him with someone more controllable, like Solid Snake who isn't aware of being a pawn on this chessboard.

The thing is, what is established in the "Solid" entries is that Big Boss knows about L.E.T and its the straw that broke the camel's back with his membership in the Patriots. He also knows David and Eli, he doesnt have any animosity towards them but no love either, he wants them to be treated humanely but he has nothing to do with them.

Now you would ask why Big Boss would have David in his Foxhound and even train him CQC? Well, I think it comes down to Big Boss making mistakes, shocking I know. MG1 demonstrated Big Boss had no faith in David and was expecting him to die, showing how much Outer Heaven means business that not even Foxhound can stop them. He tried to subtly boycott the mission (like the classic "Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you that a gas mask will be necessary in this room."...while you are already IN the room and taking damage) and began to legit sound frustrated at Solid's progression.

Big Boss thought he was defeating the Patriots by playing with their pieces, playing along with "the game" of power, not understanding that underestimating a Snake is the same mistake many of his foes were guilty off and all of them paid dearly for it...and inevitably his turn comes (or rather, Venom's).

Big Boss is far nastier in MG2 because he isnt trying to hide anything anymore and fully embraced his "villanous" role. And a remake shouldnt shy from that, Big Boss IS evil, he just looks after his own but anyone else? He cares nothing for. At that point, he looks forward to facing Solid, now respecting him as a soldier, because either Big Boss wins and achieves his goal or dies and achieves peace...he is getting something out of it either way.

Big Boss needs to be EVIL in the MG duology, engaging and complex but still evil.
 
In retrospect, Im not sure if there would be an ending where we see Venom Snake exchanging a final conversation with Big Boss, it sounds good on paper but would it perhaps be the sort of thing that feels rather cheesy on execution?
It'd be a good optional tape to find, though. Just have the main narrative show that there was a radio conversation, maybe the very end of it from Venom's side.

Now you would ask why Big Boss would have David in his Foxhound and even train him CQC? Well, I think it comes down to Big Boss making mistakes, shocking I know.
BB liked being a soldier; it was the betrayal and the games he couldn't stand. He probably knew David was maneuvered into Foxhound --classic Zero move, and Miller can't have a perfect poker face--but he's also giving the David a chance to feel that sense of belonging and purpose and satisfaction of working to the top of his abilities, the same way he did.

BB knows he'll have to kill David eventually, or maybe David will kill him (fuckin' finally someone does), or maybe he can win him over as an ally, but for now why not let the poor kid enjoy his potential, here where BB (and Fox) can keep an eye on him? David didn't ask to be a clone.
 
It'd be a good optional tape to find, though. Just have the main narrative show that there was a radio conversation, maybe the very end of it from Venom's side.

Which is why I pictured as a "completionist" reward, where its the "final" secret of Outer Heaven because while it wouldnt be a secret Big Boss is still out there, the plot wouldnt explain he was just fine after such an intense fight against Solid and looking near death. Its the "final" reward, for Venom to be acknowledged, to not remain "invisible" any longer and given how many players love Venom for being an unsung hero/villain, having him finally be recognized beyond MGSV would be its own reward.
BB knows he'll have to kill David eventually, or maybe David will kill him (fuckin' finally someone does), or maybe he can win him over as an ally, but for now why not let the poor kid enjoy his potential, here where BB (and Fox) can keep an eye on him?

I legit think B.B didnt think much of David and the fact he is one of the L.E.T would have added some bias in there but Solid overcoming everything is what would make John recognize his mistake and that David is a foe worthy of respect and the title of "Snake".

B.B spells it out in MGS4 that he never saw David as his son (despite calling him that a few times) but did respect him as a man and soldier. MG1 is when the respect for the soldier is earned. MG2 is when the respect for the man is earned, specifically when David rejects B.B's world view in their final conversation before battle as he demonstrates a mental and moral resiliance to the point John recognizes that David might have done the right choices if he was on his place when they meet again 20 years later
 
Zero was in a Coma before David ever turned 12, It was Miller
I know we never "see" them, but there really had to be more to Cipher than just Zero--he set up the AIs to carry things forward even after he was mentally gone, but he wasn't a computer guy. He paid and influenced people to create self-sustaining systems, and part of a system would need to be the humans in it too. Plus there were the Patriots; at very least Sigint was still working with Zero, or with what he thought were messengers from Zero.

Not that Miller wasn't involved, but there had to have been some Seele-style meeting where a handful of conspirators decided to train one of the Enfants in Foxhound and Miller came on-mic to say sure, but could it be the other one because he'd had enough Liquid for a lifetime.
 
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