Men's Rights Activists

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How does this translate into rights activism, though? What policy are they pushing for? How do they want government to change?
Probably the jurisprudence around matrimonial law. It assumes that women still can't get high-earning jobs, so men really get screwed in alimony. Also, laws regarding custody favor the mother -with the implication men are incompetent and uncaring parents.
 
Probably the jurisprudence around matrimonial law. It assumes that women still can't get high-earning jobs, so men really get screwed in alimony. Also, laws regarding custody favor the mother -with the implication men are incompetent and uncaring parents.
I wouldn't trust me caring after a child, and I know most women work harder than me and make much less.
 
I have a lot of things I could say on MRAs but I pause to think this is how many also view feminism and I wonder how many reasonable people who are MRAs get screamed out by the radicals or if the stereotype really is the norm. I wonder if it started out with decent people and then became overwhelmed by the spergs or if it was always like this from the start. Alas, my lack of perspective is only outmatched by how little I care.
 
Unfortunately, I think a fair amount of MRA hate stems from a knee-jerk reaction against the fact that the more extreme members of the movement essentially want to put women "back in the kitchen" and redefine the female identity solely on the basis of wife/motherhood, just as the common knee-jerk reaction to feminism is that it wants to destroy men. Of course, both these reactions are grounded in a kernel of truth - idiots on the extreme fringes of both movements seem to want exactly that to happen - and the more sensible, moderate elements in both movements get drowned out by the idiocy. :(
I have a negative impression about anyone who is dumb enough to call themselves an MRA. I think this is a result of identity politics, where every additional label you tack onto yourself limits ties you down to another set of stereotypes.

Even if MRAs don't intend for it, people are naturally going to compare men's rights activism and feminism. And that's not a favorable comparison for MRAs. When MRAs make that comparison (even unintentionally) they come off as excessively dramatic. And there are plenty of MRAs who make that comparison intentionally, and those people are huge dumbasses.

I think @Alberto Balsalm hit the nail on the head. The term "feminism" has lots of historical currency. I think that men's rights activism lacks that historical currency, and that most people willing to label themselves an MRA are dumbasses.

Of course, lots of internet feminists are doing their darndest to piss away that historical currency. But as long as women's suffrage is still a part of our cultural memory, I think feminism is still pretty solid. Heh, also, Islam is helping remind people that feminism is still important. Thanks Islam!

All that being said, as people have touched on, there are some huge issues that exclusively affect men that need to be addressed. Men get discriminated against in divorce proceedings, they're constantly under suspicious of pedophilia, and yet male victims of pedophilia (especially if the perpetrator is female) get treated pretty shittily, they're subject to impossible standards of masculinity, etc.
 
I have a negative impression about anyone who is dumb enough to call themselves an MRA. I think this is a result of identity politics, where every additional label you tack onto yourself limits ties you down to another set of stereotypes.

Even if MRAs don't intend for it, people are naturally going to compare men's rights activism and feminism. And that's not a favorable comparison for MRAs. When MRAs make that comparison (even unintentionally) they come off as excessively dramatic. And there are plenty of MRAs who make that comparison intentionally, and those people are huge dumbasses.

I think @Alberto Balsalm hit the nail on the head. The term "feminism" has lots of historical currency. I think that men's rights activism lacks that historical currency, and that most people willing to label themselves an MRA are dumbasses.

Of course, lots of internet feminists are doing their darndest to piss away that historical currency. But as long as women's suffrage is still a part of our cultural memory, I think feminism is still pretty solid. Heh, also, Islam is helping remind people that feminism is still important. Thanks Islam!

All that being said, as people have touched on, there are some huge issues that exclusively affect men that need to be addressed. Men get discriminated against in divorce proceedings, they're constantly under suspicious of pedophilia, and yet male victims of pedophilia (especially if the perpetrator is female) get treated pretty shittily, they're subject to impossible standards of masculinity, etc.
I can see what you're saying. Often times in some of these movements, the people themselves become their own worst enemy even if some of the issues that they stand for like family court laws and child custody are actual concerns. It does not help that just a couple of years ago, I had not heard anything about mens rights activism whatsoever. It's in the last few years that I've been hearing more about it, so compared to feminism and its long history, that alone gives the movement a lot of challenges to overcome if they are ever to become something worth taking seriously by the public.
 
As previously mentioned, MRAs don't really do anything. The bulk of their "activism" involves complaining that feminists don't do things for them. For example, they complain a lot about domestic shelters for male victims. But I've seen absolutely no effort on their part to, y'know, build one, raise money to fund one, or anything remotely useful. They just complain that feminists don't make them for them and cry about how it's unfair as a lame "gotcha" tactic.

To most of their complaints, my response is basically boo fucking hoo. Like, for example the false rape claims sperging. Yes, false rape claims are shitty and need to be dealt with. But women have been dealing with the fear of rape since pretty much forever. Now that there's a relatively comparable crime women can do to men, it's suddenly the biggest issue ever, to the point idiots like Ian Ironwood actually advise young men not to go to college. It's really hard to be empathetic.
That and I just don't see much evidence of their claims; for example, a gross proportion of women I've known have been raped and the rapists weren't ever punished, but I've literally never known someone who was formally accused (falsely or not) of rape outside of the internet. I've known men who leeched off their wives for alimony. etc. I know anecdotal evidence is shit, but I know a lot of people and I've lived a lot of places so I'm pretty confident if these things were remotely as common as MRAs claim, I'd see at least some evidence of it.
One MRA issue I do think is kind of important is women "trapping" men, I think that's absolute shit.
 
How does this translate into rights activism, though? What policy are they pushing for? How do they want government to change?
I'm not an MRA so I can't really answer well, but from some acquaintances I've heard:

- they wish to change the laws which after divorce places a child automatically with the mother (in some places) or put in laws to prevent this from automatically happening

- they wish to repeal the laws in some places that have "automatic arrest" after domestic violence (I forget what the laws are called). They claim these laws unfairly target men.

- some of them are against "diversity" laws like "affirmative action" because they believe it prevents men from being hired on merit by forcing a minority hire over someone more qualified

- some are pushing for paternal leave (a rare few, and I think these folks tend not to call themselves MRAs....but that goes back to the label argument again)

Those are just off the top of my head. As for defining their "overall ideology"....I'm not sure there is one. I'm under the impression most folks who specifically call themselves MRAs believe that Feminism's agenda is to remove rights from men.
 
I'm not an MRA so I can't really answer well, but from some acquaintances I've heard:

- they wish to change the laws which after divorce places a child automatically with the mother (in some places) or put in laws to prevent this from automatically happening

Incidentally, if the Equal Rights Amendment had been ratified, this would be outright unconstitutional in every state in the Union.

It's also terrible policy. In some situations, the mother is clearly completely unfit.

The only basis for a custody policy should be the good of the child.

What's a lot more common than some ridiculous and explicitly discriminatory policy is simply bias by decision-makers (usually family court judges or state agencies) that unfairly favors women over men and tends to disregard evidence of unfitness when it applies to women.

Where this bias is unintentional, though, the decision-makers tend to correct it of their own volition.

- they wish to repeal the laws in some places that have "automatic arrest" after domestic violence (I forget what the laws are called). They claim these laws unfairly target men.

I'd agree with the automatic arrest, regardless of the sex of the offender.

- some of them are against "diversity" laws like "affirmative action" because they believe it prevents men from being hired on merit by forcing a minority hire over someone more qualified

This sounds more like a white man's rights activist issue.

- some are pushing for paternal leave (a rare few, and I think these folks tend not to call themselves MRAs....but that goes back to the label argument again)

Like most actually egalitarian policies, this would benefit women as well as men, both by making both parents available for early child care and family bonding, but also by removing the incentive not to discriminate against women.

Some employers are wary of hiring women because of the disproportionate cost of maternity leave. If both parents are going to take parental leave, though, it isn't as much of a difference.

For example, Sweden actually makes parental leave mandatory.

Those are just off the top of my head. As for defining their "overall ideology"....I'm not sure there is one. I'm under the impression most folks who specifically call themselves MRAs believe that Feminism's agenda is to remove rights from men.

Most people who actually call themselves MRAs are fucking insane and give a terrible name to the shit they espouse.

For instance, when the guy complaining about unfair child custody rules and men being disproportionately targeted as pedophiles turns out to be a wife-beating deadbeat dad, it does nothing for the reputation of the movement.
 
I'm beginning to think my views on MRAs have been painted mostly by what feminists have said about them. I have not had much direct exposure.
This depends on which subgroup you talk to - while @PeteyCoffee thinks I was being snarky, I wasn't kidding. Besides the incels we make fun on on KF, there are other groups. One is ultra-conservative, who believe maleness and masculinity are objectively superior traits and that therefore, naturally, manly men should be in control. They range from your typical GOP fan all the way to gentlemen who think women are literal objects who exist for sexual pleasure for men. I find these folks and the incels believe that women are only truly satisifed with life once they accept and fulfil their natural purpose for sex, and that Feminism is women deluding themselves into thinking otherwise.

Then there are a group of men, often more liberal but not always, who see certain social cultures and laws as harming men and boys. For example, mother-favoring custody laws, the high male suicide rate, gang-related violence, and so on. They tend to campaign on ways to raise boys in more functional ways, as well as for legal changes. Some of them also support Feminism, but I think typically then they don't call themselves "MRAs" but I could be wrong. Some of them believe Feminism is matriarchal and actively dismantling rights for males.
How do "red pillers" fall into all of this? I actually have had a very positive impression when it comes to most of them.
How about women who identify themselves as MRAs like Karen Straughan?
I've watched her videos analyzing Internet cult leaders, some of her counterarguments against SJW and Feminist arguments, and some of her compilations of evidence against false claims made by Feminists and SJWs. Her videos are very well-researched and compelling.
I have a negative impression about anyone who is dumb enough to call themselves an MRA. I think this is a result of identity politics, where every additional label you tack onto yourself limits ties you down to another set of stereotypes.
I have a similar negative initial impression towards individuals who call themselves Feminists. They are labeling themselves in the same way SJW figureheads of the contemporary popular movement do. I try to give individuals the benefit of the doubt until they've expressed their views. Every so often, I find one who hadn't meant to associate with them.
As previously mentioned, MRAs don't really do anything. The bulk of their "activism" involves complaining that feminists don't do things for them. For example, they complain a lot about domestic shelters for male victims. But I've seen absolutely no effort on their part to, y'know, build one, raise money to fund one, or anything remotely useful. They just complain that feminists don't make them for them and cry about how it's unfair as a lame "gotcha" tactic.
I feel the same way about Feminists. The bulk of their "activism" involves complaining that men don't do things for them. They aren't proactive, for the most part. It's like, "things need to change... You foot the bill!"
For instance, when the guy complaining about unfair child custody rules and men being disproportionately targeted as pedophiles turns out to be a wife-beating deadbeat dad, it does nothing for the reputation of the movement.
The same thing goes for charlatans of any denomination or creed.
 
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PeteyCoffee you once disliked a post where I said that ignoring real sexism is a problem, what about that exactly did you disagree with?

You asked me "how?" and at the time I didn't answer because I thought you might be trolling.
I don't think what I said was controversial, but it was kinda vague, so I'll answer. I simply meant that a good society is one in which people try to treat each other equally, (or as equal as possible, because I know men and women do have differences). I wasn't trying to imply that only women face problems.
 
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So, basically a few family law issues. I never gathered that from their message. All I have seen is just talk about feminists.

It might be more productive for them to try and work with feminists to solve these few family law issues if both sides are rights-based activists.
 
PeteyCoffee you once disliked a post where I said that ignoring real sexism is a problem, what about that exactly did you disagree with?
The way I see it, worrying over the fact that there are sexists in the world achieves nothing. Because you can't change that; you can't control people's minds.

If you obsess over the pricks, it's like they have control over your life; if you ignore them, they have nothing on you.
 
I feel the same way about Feminists. The bulk of their "activism" involves complaining that men don't do things for them. They aren't proactive, for the most part. It's like, "things need to change... You foot the bill!"

The same thing goes for charlatans of any denomination or creed.
But that's not true at all. Feminists have built domestic violence shelters. There are a lot of women's groups like women in tech, women in business that are actually very informative. I went to a women's conference that was very informative and not at all just complaints. Some feminists have made kids toys and games aimed at getting more girls into stem. Feminist politicians propose legislation aimed at achieving equality. I saw a feminist recently who was raising money to help fly poor women to places where they could more easily get abortions. If you really think feminists don't do anything you're not paying attention.
How do "red pillers" fall into all of this? I actually have had a very positive impression when it comes to most of them.
Lol
 
But that's not true at all. Feminists have built domestic violence shelters. There are a lot of women's groups like women in tech, women in business that are actually very informative. I went to a women's conference that was very informative and not at all just complaints. Some feminists have made kids toys and games aimed at getting more girls into stem. Feminist politicians propose legislation aimed at achieving equality. I saw a feminist recently who was raising money to help fly poor women to places where they could more easily get abortions. If you really think feminists don't do anything you're not paying attention.
I know some Feminists are proactive; I just haven't come across very many. Though a lot of them do seem to be concerned about trying to pass legislation, which is trying to force other people to do/pay for things on their behalf. Some MRAs go to conferences, but there aren't very many MRAs, so it makes sense there isn't nearly as much money to go around.

I just looked up /r/TheRedPill, and the opening blurb says, "Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men." I kind of like that. If Feminists talked about what they could be doing to try to improve themselves, I would like their movement a lot more. I'm sure there are some Feminists who do this, but what I see is a bunch of victim complexes and perpetration of that mindset.
 
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I actually do sympathize with MRAs on some issues. Like in regards to custody battles and not taking female perpetrators as seriously as they should. But they loose all credibility when they blame these issues on feminism and women in general. Yeah there are some women out there who promote this kind of toxic mindset but there are men who do the same. I feel like MRAs (and Tumblr feminists) demonize the opposite gender when in reality , they should work together and try to demolish these type of gender roles that hurt both men and women. Like that'll ever happen though. Ah well. At least the r/RedPill is fun to laugh at.

How about women who identify themselves as MRAs like Karen Straughan?

Ugh. I find her to be awful. Still, she's a ray of sunshine in comparison to JudgyBitch.
 
This is where I'd put my picture of Penn Jillette, if I had one.
I disagree with that line of reasoning.

It's like, I've visited Feminist circles and read or talked to many Feminists and that's how I know I object to and despise that political and social movement. If I took on the mindset, "people who have talked to Feminists or have read Feminist literature can have their opinions thrown in the garbage", I never would have been able to develop an informed opinion.
 
I disagree with that line of reasoning.

It's like, I've visited Feminist circles and read or talked to many Feminists and that's how I know I object to and despise that political and social movement. If I took on the mindset, "people who have talked to Feminists or have read Feminist literature can have their opinions thrown in the garbage", I never would have been able to develop an informed opinion.
As a long-term resident of our love-shy therapy center here, just no. r/theredpill is blatantly sexist. I'm sure there's some places that are MRA-related that are better, but r/theredpill isn't one of them.
 
As a long-term resident of our love-shy therapy center here, just no. r/theredpill is blatantly sexist. I'm sure there's some places that are MRA-related that are better, but r/theredpill isn't one of them.
I'm not doubting what you're saying, but unless you've browsed TheRedPill, you don't know. Kiwi threads don't cut it. We focus on the few lolcows in a sea of unfunny people.
 
I'm not doubting what you're saying, but unless you've browsed TheRedPill, you don't know. Kiwi threads don't cut it. We focus on the few lolcows in a sea of unfunny people.
Of course we've browsed it, that's how you find content on it. It's been brought up in various thread, and @Cosmos recently made a general thread entirely for it.

Looking at the front page of it, we have some gems such as, "Women are an amalgamation of popular culture: or why they offer nothing of value aside from their pussies." "A Look into the blue pill world of Elliot Rogders." And "Women are mislead by society, just like blue pill beta bob."

Seriously, r/theredpill isn't the kind of place you want to defend.
 
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