Mega Rad Gun Thread

[Club Sandwich]

While we're discussing guns, does any company still produce M1 Garands or something similar?

yes, JRA does, as does the CMP from parts in stock. more boutique builders are warbirds, DGR, and Shuff's. most boutique builders do custom builds using the customer's supplied rifle, or might have a project gun as a side thing for their main business (Shuff's for example is metal finishing, but does projects on the side). expect four figure work. DGR is a more sure fire bet for something in-stock and ready for sale. http://dgrguns.com/

to fit them and only them

this is called "fitting the gun" in the US, done by bespoke outfitters. i do this for particular customers that want something nice, although mostly on rifles and not shotguns - the concept, techniques, and tools are the same though; i was taught by Don Currie some years ago. fitting is art and while isn't terribly costly, it isn't cheap either, and a fine shotgun for the discerning shooter should be comfortable, matching their lifestyle, and be natural to hold and use. the working theory is that shotguns are pointed, not aimed.

while there are many things involved, you can fit your own shotgun or get really close from something off the shelf, then meet with an outfitter for adjustments. you will be interested primarily in:

1. the length of pull - the distance from the trigger to your inner elbow or the leading edge of the butt.
2. the wrist angle and girth that matches your natural grasp and hand
3. the drop at the comb at the top of the stock with your face and cheek for alignment with the top of the receiver, down the rib, to the bead
4. the cast of the comb/stock if you have a preference of a certain left-to-right alignment.
5. the pitch, or the angle of the butt plate as it interacts with your shoulder and upper arm.

these 5 measurements, as well as a properly made bespoke shotgun (of your preference, ie Greener, H&H, Parker Bros, AH Fox, James Purdey, some older Browning (Midas, Diana) shotguns, et c) from a reputable outfitter should do you well. for something "all around" that isn't terribly expensive as well as having aftermarket support it's difficult to go wrong with a Browning or Beretta. consider a Citori or 686 Silver Pidgeon (as already mentioned) both for price and being very popular and lots of aftermarket support.

Luciano Bosis, imported through Caesar Guerini, which is an importer for the smaller cottage trade of bespoke Italian shotguns and quite affordable and i think a cut above the 686, and has a lot of compatibility with Beretta/Benelli parts if you want a particular feature or just need a spring or something. if you want to stick with a well known, large bespoke fitter, consider Beretta's bespoke shop and models like the Sparviere. you will find that nearly all bespoke makers will offer a fitting service.

http://www.bosis.com/
http://gueriniusa.com/

if you want more information, feel free to ask, as i've done my share of fine work on bespoke firearms and can point you in a direction you might want to walk. the first stop might be to just look at the "lifestyle" that Beretta sells as part of their outfitting catalog: http://stuartmercer.com/ and http://www.beretta.com/en-us/premium-world/finder/

personally, i prefer either Greener, Bosis, or Browning bespoke shotguns. for rifles i'm more of a Purdey or Holland & Holland person.

 

[Splendid]

Holy shit, that's a lot of good info man.

 

[Maxliam]

Convince me not to get a PS 90 for ultimate intruder removal.

Been watching a lot of Stargate, eh? I never talk a person out of buying a gun. The more the merrier. My xmas gift to myself was a 1919 Colt Army Special. It was parkerized so it has no collector's value but I love old Colts so for 350 I got a very mechanically sound piece.

 

[Splendid]

Been watching a lot of Stargate, eh? I never talk a person out of buying a gun. The more the merrier. My xmas gift to myself was a 1919 Colt Army Special. It was parkerized so it has no collector's value but I love old Colts so for 350 I got a very mechanically sound piece.

I've never seen that show, I've just always liked the gun. My logic is that in a high stress situation like self-defense, most people will miss most shots, even at surprisingly short ranges (and the statistics bear this out,) so the best thing to do is to just have a lot of ammo, and since you're in your own house you're guaranteed to be indoors, so a short length is a must too. To top it all off, the rounds are small and unlikely to penetrate exterior walls or cause massive amounts of shrapnel to go flying around, which is one less risk to worry about.
I assume your gun is in .38 special?

 

[JohnDoe]

Convince me not to get a PS 90 for ultimate intruder removal.

It and its ammo is extremely expensive, plus the armor-penetrating qualities will be more or less wasted (unless you're aiming for the ATF logos). For half the price you can get a number of similarly compact firearms chambered in 9mm or .45, plus the silencer cans and SBR stamps.

 

[Splendid]

Counterpoint: You have a furry avatar.
Take that!

 

[Maxliam]

I don't know if the 5.7mm round won't penetrate through drywall. It's renowned for its ability to punch through kevlar. Any rifle really has a potential to overpenetrate a house's walls. Personally I'd recommend a shotgun but not like the way Uncle Joe Biden says to just blindly fire off two blasts.

Yeah it's in .38 Special. I probably will only fire it a few times.

It and its ammo is extremely expensive, plus the armor-penetrating qualities will be more or less wasted (unless you're aiming for the ATF logos). For half the price you can get a number of similarly compact firearms chambered in 9mm or .45, plus the silencer cans and SBR stamps.

This as well. Honestly I would get one for shits and giggles but I kind have a collection of 33 going right now so I think I'll just focus on my collection. My Ithaca 37 needs wood furniture and I think replacing a barrel for my Savage 110 is more pressing. That and you can never have too much ammo.

As for the dude who wants to buy the P90 clone, if he has the cash to burn, go for it. Just realize it's not what most would regard as the ideal home defense weapon.

 

[Splendid]

I didn't say drywall, I specifically said exterior walls. I did see a video suggesting that the round would be much less lethal after two sheets of drywall (so one wall,) but obviously I'm not going to make safety decisions based on a Youtube video.
And what would you recommend for a home defense weapon? I don't think shotguns really have the ammo capacity, and I'm skeptical of using just a handgun.

 

[TerminalTryHard]

If you don't like pistols or shotguns have you looked at any pistol caliber carbines?

 

[Club Sandwich]

I've never seen that show, I've just always liked the gun. My logic is that in a high stress situation like self-defense, most people will miss most shots, even at surprisingly short ranges (and the statistics bear this out,) so the best thing to do is to just have a lot of ammo, and since you're in your own house you're guaranteed to be indoors, so a short length is a must too. To top it all off, the rounds are small and unlikely to penetrate exterior walls or cause massive amounts of shrapnel to go flying around, which is one less risk to worry about.
I assume your gun is in .38 special?

while it's true that people fall back on their training or instincts in high stress situations - depending on gross muscle control and instinctive shooting, that is a lack of practice and training than a deficiency of tool. while it's very difficult to get accurate details of shootings, virtually all recorded police interactions in immediate self defense shootings use less than 6 rounds of ammunition on average and at distances of 5ft or less (https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2012/tabl...ition_penetrating_vo_body_armor_2003-2012.xls)

for most people in the home, this translates often to "across the room" distances and even in a violent confrontation with rapid movement, having to depend on a large number of rounds - each one of which you are responsible for, whether they hit or miss, is a difficult thing to recommend.

i am very skeptical of the claim that 5-8 rounds of any ammunition isn't enough to fend off a couple burglars wanting a television or xbox - i would posit that most unarmed intruders, when faced with an armed home owner, will flee rapidly, making the use of more than a handful of shots when the target is already fleeing very dubious.

that being said, if you live in a location or have a lifestyle that requires a large amount of ready ammunition in a magazine because you have a real concern of a rapid attack of multiple assailants with quick and overwhelming force that are not deterred by several shots from an appropriate weapon, perhaps consider better perimeter or location security, a relocation to a better area, or a change in lifestyle.

note that i am not advocating a double-barrel, or a reduction to a derringer, however consider that 5-7 rounds has historically proven adequate for personnel defense for over a hundred years when in the home for the average person and reconsider your options for a defense weapon based on your skills, experience, and training more so than raw capacity.

it might boil down to a handy P90 SBR fits everything you need in a carbine, but it could also mean that training and practice is more expensive or less frequent (some ranges refuse to allow some ammunition for concern of over-penetration or damage to shot traps), ammunition in quantity can be harder to come by, the controls of the weapon might not be conducive to the style of shooting you want to be skilled at (stapler-like triggers are not ideal triggers), et c.

lastly, 27gr and 40gr 5.7x28mm ammunition has a greater degree of barrier penetration than an AR-15 style rifle from the interior of a home because the lower velocity and lighter weight is better able to penetrate dry wall than typical 5.56x45mm ammunition which achieves lethality by excessive velocity and a bullet weight that is extremely prone to "shattering" when encountering barriers. the 5.7x28mm is explicitly designed for anti-personnel use and has a strong tendency for barrier penetration to include drywall, conduit, pressboard/plyboard, gypsum, sheet metal (aluminum, steel, zinc/nickel alloy), and even auto glass (laminated/reinforced).

5.7x28mm on average penetrates 3 interior rooms (6 walls of drywall, assuming no other barriers): http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall2/results.html

if penetration of interior walls and things (or people) on the other side of those walls is a concern, either particularly acquire, test, and use fragmenting ammunition (some are made of compressed powder and have very poor penetration ability), or use something equivalent to 5.56x45mm. even if you are unconcerned with interior walls, let's hope you have no family or guests that are in those rooms that might catch a bullet from your weapon.

if your exterior walls are similar material and not brick, concrete, or similar, you will penetrate them readily as well. in fact if you live in any sort of apartment or duplex with typical post-war American construction (wooden A-frame with panel walls and conduit), a 9x19mm will easily penetrate exterior walls if they are not brick or stone.

there's also the unfortunate tendency of homes to have windows and doors that lead outside, and for homes to be located in neighborhoods with people outside of them, even other homes with windows or people on porches. a round that doesn't penetrate brick, but can penetration a hollow core door can travel to your neighbor's stoop and strike an unintended target.

 

[Splendid]

That's a lot of good info thanks.
My exterior walls are concrete though, I've never heard of a house with drywall for exterior walls.

 

[Club Sandwich]

That's a lot of good info thanks.
My exterior walls are concrete though, I've never heard of a house with drywall for exterior walls.

i updated my post to reflect your additional information that your only concern is exterior wall penetration, when those walls are concrete. i assume it is not a box, and that you have things or people in other rooms that you would rather not shoot in the interior of your home (any projectile hitting a wall will shatter and either penetrate or litter the area with debris).

also note that the common exterior wall is a frame with a veneer of material like brick or clay:

this material is easily penetrated by a variety of common ammunition, especially with repeated hits; maybe repeated hits by someone mistakenly confident that their shots are not penetrating. i'm not suggesting that you have a clapboard shack, but that your concrete walls are not a solid half dozen inches of stone and gravel.

 

[Syaoran Li]

So, I am thinking of finally taking the plunge and buying that revolver I have been talking about.

I'm thinking of buying something reasonably affordable, preferably below $500 but I can save up more depending on my options.

I want a revolver chambered in either .38 Special or .357 Magnum, since many .357 Magnum revolvers can also fire .38 Special ammo as well as .357 Magnum.

I've always been a fan of the .38 Special, it's a versatile round that is fairly affordable and easy to find. I've fired a .38 Special revolver before (my cousin's old S&W Model 15 he inherited from my great-grandfather) and it's alright by me.

From what I have been told, .357 Magnum kicks heavy and packs a wallop, but is good for pistol hunting. But I do know that magnum bullets are more expensive than standard .38 Special rounds.

I have been looking at the European-American Arms Windicator or maybe one of the Taurus revolvers that my local pawn shop carries, although I am nervous about buying a used gun.

 

[Maxliam]

I didn't say drywall, I specifically said exterior walls. I did see a video suggesting that the round would be much less lethal after two sheets of drywall (so one wall,) but obviously I'm not going to make safety decisions based on a Youtube video.
And what would you recommend for a home defense weapon? I don't think shotguns really have the ammo capacity, and I'm skeptical of using just a handgun.

I don't know where you live or what kind of threat you're expecting but no. 4 buckshot or 00 Buckshot with recoil reduced would pretty much put anyone into an early grave and unless you have like Kodiak bears or Elk crashing through your door, you can kill pretty much any wild animal in the US. I mean unless you are encountering a ton of niggers, a shotgun will take care of a few dindus who shouldn't do. With the amount of money you're plunking for the P90 and ammo, you can buy a good shotgun and enough shells to become surgical with that thing.

To get good enough with that P90 you're going to spend enough to buy a decent used car.

I would suggest a shotgun like a Mossberg 500 or Benelli Nova or an older Remington (pre-Freedom group or whatever took over them) 870 and the reason for reduced recoil is for two things: 1.) Easier controllability and getting back on target. 2.) It's been shown that the energy transfer is actually better than full powered 12 gauge which would make some sense. If it doesn't punch as hard and out of someone like full power, that energy is more likely to transfer into someone who is made of soft and squishy organs.

So, I am thinking of finally taking the plunge and buying that revolver I have been talking about.

I'm thinking of buying something reasonably affordable, preferably below $500 but I can save up more depending on my options.

I want a revolver chambered in either .38 Special or .357 Magnum, since many .357 Magnum revolvers can also fire .38 Special ammo as well as .357 Magnum.

I've always been a fan of the .38 Special, it's a versatile round that is fairly affordable and easy to find. I've fired a .38 Special revolver before (my cousin's old S&W Model 15 he inherited from my great-grandfather) and it's alright by me.

From what I have been told, .357 Magnum kicks heavy and packs a wallop, but is good for pistol hunting. But I do know that magnum bullets are more expensive than standard .38 Special rounds.

I have been looking at the European-American Arms Windicator or maybe one of the Taurus revolvers that my local pawn shop carries, although I am nervous about buying a used gun.

I would advise against the EAA and Taurus if this is for self-defense. I'd get a Ruger GP100 (4inch or 6 inch) or SP101 (3 inch if possible) in .357.

Rugers are built like tanks. They make loads that are rated just for them. Not even joking. Buffalo Bore has rounds that are rated "For Ruger only".

You might have to save a little bit more up but it's worth it. Also with a .357 you can load .38 Special +P for home defense. It'll put a hurting on anything or anyone giving you problems.

 

[Club Sandwich]

That's a lot of good info thanks.
My exterior walls are concrete though, I've never heard of a house with drywall for exterior walls.

so all that being said, it boils down to two main considerations: the first, choosing the firearm that's right for you. it should fit your lifestyle, your budget, your preferences in handling. it should be something you are comfortable with, that you can regularly practice with, and that you have confidence in.

what i mean by this is that there is a tendency among some shooters, and i find it mostly in shooters that are more number crunchers than practical handlers, to choose a firearm for their home defense based on statistics, what they see someone else has or does, or what some organizations do or have, or what someone somewhere recommended because of reasons.

practical experience, hands-on experience, will determine what is right for you and your particular circumstance and needs will help drive that decision.

you should put hands on a PS90, and send a few boxes down-range. get a feeling for handling characteristics - are there any annoying aspects of the carbine? consider the price of regular practice or training, the ongoing cost of maintenance and stocking of appropriate ammunition for your particular needs. consider if someone else has to use it instead of you - what is your comfort level of handling the weapon in less than ideal situations like in a cramped hallway, in the darkness with poor lighting, clearing a malfunction in a fast and efficient manner?

all these should be practical considerations for your choice of a self defense weapon. because different people have different situations and preferences, that there is a very wide variety of choices available to you. if a PS90 or a Model 19, or a Remington 870 or whatever is how it works out, then so be it - acquire the weapon, a good quantity of ammunition, and practice practice practice and grow your skills to a point of confident, repeatable performance so that your minimum level of performance is adequate to see you through a possibly life-altering situation.

the second consideration is the non-shooting part of it. there is a very real segment of the population that view persons who have a certain lifestyle, certain appearance with an askance view. these people might see a "tactical" weapon in the hands of a non-police, non-military person in such a way as they might draw conclusions of a situation based on their prejudices, their bias, their experiences, their training (right or wrong), and the tendency to take politics into consideration.

if you are involved in a legitimate self-defense shooting, there is a very real possibility that you will need to go to court on the topic. in most jurisdictions, you will have an affirmative defense, meaning you don't have to prove anything and that the prosecution must instead prove that you didn't have justified reason to use deadly force.

this varies greatly from state to state, county to county, and even city to city. consult your local legal counsel on what is appropriate in your local area and have some confidence in being able to tell a "good shoot" from a bad one.

surviving the encounter where you had to defend your home is one thing. in some situations, or (as much as you might disagree with it) when using a particular weapon that has a certain appearance, stereotype, or association with an organization, the average people on a jury, if it comes to that, will take a look at you, your situation, and your weapon and draw conclusions based on that.

i'm not saying to play it safe and stick with a 5 shot J frame or a side by side; what i am saying is that choice of your defense weapon has a larger scope than just exterior wall penetration. and the only one that can make a choice that you are comfortable and confident with is you.

EAA

EAA is an importer of primarily European handguns among others. they make nothing themselves. also it is a little disingenuous to flatly poo-poo on Taurus, as their PT92 series is excellent for the money asked.

I'd get a Ruger GP100 (4inch or 6 inch) or SP101 (3 inch if possible) in .357.

Rugers are built like tanks. They make loads that are rated just for them. Not even joking. Buffalo Bore has rounds that are rated "For Ruger only".

a GP100 is a modernized Security/Service Six. the SP101 is a 5-shot, smaller, more "carry" oriented model; just so the difference between them is clearer.

secondly, Ruger's reputation of strength is largely a matter of debate - i was around during the revolver era of heavy police use and the never ending Ruger-v-S&W advertising of the 80's. the effective difference is design, of which the unibody cast steel design of the Security Six is inherently a bit stronger than the side plate models from Colt and S&W, despite Ruger's revolvers being cast steel and not hammer forged. Ruger has really mastered, IMHO, steel casting for firearms.

the Buffalo Bore (and Cor-Bon and Underwood, and so on) "Ruger only" loads are taking some liability into consideration and frame stretching - the cast steel is more forgiving of repeatedly stretching and returning to shape with elastic deformation of the frame than with other designs that will take the strain and if that strain is exceeded will plastically deform - permanently damaging the frame. an overbuilt .357 on an N frame, like a Model 27, will handle "Ruger only" loads just fine. the typical J frame or K frame will not.

 

[DildoGaggins]

I actually just bought a glock yesterday. I couldn't get the CZ P-10 C that I wanted because my hand strength is so intensely weak that I cant rack it but it's not too bad.

 

[Meat Poultry Veg]

Where do you fall in the semiauto versus revolver debate?

Although I owned a semiauto (Ruger P345) I found that the blowback mechanism of anything larger than a .22 made me miss significantly--which is pretty sad when it was a .45 that I owned. I never had a problem with revolvers, even with heavier loads like a .500 S&W. I wonder why that is?

 

[Maxliam]

so all that being said, it boils down to two main considerations: the first, choosing the firearm that's right for you. it should fit your lifestyle, your budget, your preferences in handling. it should be something you are comfortable with, that you can regularly practice with, and that you have confidence in.

what i mean by this is that there is a tendency among some shooters, and i find it mostly in shooters that are more number crunchers than practical handlers, to choose a firearm for their home defense based on statistics, what they see someone else has or does, or what some organizations do or have, or what someone somewhere recommended because of reasons.

practical experience, hands-on experience, will determine what is right for you and your particular circumstance and needs will help drive that decision.

you should put hands on a PS90, and send a few boxes down-range. get a feeling for handling characteristics - are there any annoying aspects of the carbine? consider the price of regular practice or training, the ongoing cost of maintenance and stocking of appropriate ammunition for your particular needs. consider if someone else has to use it instead of you - what is your comfort level of handling the weapon in less than ideal situations like in a cramped hallway, in the darkness with poor lighting, clearing a malfunction in a fast and efficient manner?

all these should be practical considerations for your choice of a self defense weapon. because different people have different situations and preferences, that there is a very wide variety of choices available to you. if a PS90 or a Model 19, or a Remington 870 or whatever is how it works out, then so be it - acquire the weapon, a good quantity of ammunition, and practice practice practice and grow your skills to a point of confident, repeatable performance so that your minimum level of performance is adequate to see you through a possibly life-altering situation.

the second consideration is the non-shooting part of it. there is a very real segment of the population that view persons who have a certain lifestyle, certain appearance with an askance view. these people might see a "tactical" weapon in the hands of a non-police, non-military person in such a way as they might draw conclusions of a situation based on their prejudices, their bias, their experiences, their training (right or wrong), and the tendency to take politics into consideration.

if you are involved in a legitimate self-defense shooting, there is a very real possibility that you will need to go to court on the topic. in most jurisdictions, you will have an affirmative defense, meaning you don't have to prove anything and that the prosecution must instead prove that you didn't have justified reason to use deadly force.

this varies greatly from state to state, county to county, and even city to city. consult your local legal counsel on what is appropriate in your local area and have some confidence in being able to tell a "good shoot" from a bad one.

surviving the encounter where you had to defend your home is one thing. in some situations, or (as much as you might disagree with it) when using a particular weapon that has a certain appearance, stereotype, or association with an organization, the average people on a jury, if it comes to that, will take a look at you, your situation, and your weapon and draw conclusions based on that.

i'm not saying to play it safe and stick with a 5 shot J frame or a side by side; what i am saying is that choice of your defense weapon has a larger scope than just exterior wall penetration. and the only one that can make a choice that you are comfortable and confident with is you.


EAA is an importer of primarily European handguns among others. they make nothing themselves. also it is a little disingenuous to flatly poo-poo on Taurus, as their PT92 series is excellent for the money asked.


a GP100 is a modernized Security/Service Six. the SP101 is a 5-shot, smaller, more "carry" oriented model; just so the difference between them is clearer.

secondly, Ruger's reputation of strength is largely a matter of debate - i was around during the revolver era of heavy police use and the never ending Ruger-v-S&W advertising of the 80's. the effective difference is design, of which the unibody cast steel design of the Security Six is inherently a bit stronger than the side plate models from Colt and S&W, despite Ruger's revolvers being cast steel and not hammer forged. Ruger has really mastered, IMHO, steel casting for firearms.

the Buffalo Bore (and Cor-Bon and Underwood, and so on) "Ruger only" loads are taking some liability into consideration and frame stretching - the cast steel is more forgiving of repeatedly stretching and returning to shape with elastic deformation of the frame than with other designs that will take the strain and if that strain is exceeded will plastically deform - permanently damaging the frame. an overbuilt .357 on an N frame, like a Model 27, will handle "Ruger only" loads just fine. the typical J frame or K frame will not.

I'll concede that point. My Model 28 is quite beefy but that's because it's essentially a .357 built on what is traditionally a .44 mag frame. I would have no qualms of firing those "ruger only" rounds.

I'm not saying that the Taurus or EAA are inherently bad brands but if it were for self-defense, I'd save up a little more and buy a more reputable brand like Ruger or S&W. Tauruses are hit and miss, they seem to have gotten the revolvers taken care of but even then I've seen some real lemons. The 92 is a rare exception in that I never had a problem with the one I used to own and regret selling. On the flip side, I did upgrade to a Beretta 92S. Aside from the heel mag release, it's a very well made pistol. Taurus is in a unique position in that the 92 wasn't just a clone reverse engineered but literally a licensed version of the Beretta since they bought the machining and plans of the Beretta when the contract ended with Beretta. I think they did improve the placement of the safety being put on the frame instead of the slide. I hate slide mounted safeties. Well that and I hate manual safeties in general.

I would also suggest looking into police trade-ins. Guns like Glocks or Berettas can be bought quite cheap and the parts are plentiful if you need to replace them. Police guns are rarely shot and carry more so most of the wear will be from holster.

Also like the person I'm quoting is saying, it boils down to you. I personally would not use a gun like a P90 as a home defense gun but if you have the money and don't mind spending a lot more of it than you would with a basic pump shotgun and a ton of rounds that would be the same cost as your P90 clone, more power to you. All I'm suggesting is what I would personally do for home/self defense.

Where do you fall in the semiauto versus revolver debate?

Although I owned a semiauto (Ruger P345) I found that the blowback mechanism of anything larger than a .22 made me miss significantly--which is pretty sad when it was a .45 that I owned. I never had a problem with revolvers, even with heavier loads like a .500 S&W. I wonder why that is?

I like revolvers, I like them a lot. The only problem is they do lack a capacity and reload speed that the semi-auto tends to have as an inherent advantage. That said, you can get good enough to reload quite quickly and can fire fairly quickly if you practice enough. Also...revolvers tend to have a very cool factor to them. Looking at my Detective Special or Model 10 snubnose, I can't help but feel like an old school 70's detective trying to catch the Zodiac killer or when handling my Model 28 I like to do the Dirty Harry speech (the Model 27-29 share the same N-Frame so it's just a smaller round) because I'm a grown, mature adult man!

On the other hand, the Browning Hi-Power and S&W 5906 are probably my favorite pistols. The Hi-Power is the one gun I'd keep (aside from my CZ52 since it's sentimental) if I had to sell off all my guns. It's like the improved version of the 1911 and to me is still a viable weapon. It's too bad they aren't making them anymore and that Browning/FN thought they were worth 700+ instead of being reasonably priced.

 

[Club Sandwich]

I think they did improve the placement of the safety being put on the frame instead of the slide. I hate slide mounted safeties.

the Beretta 92, when introduced in the late 70's had a frame mounted safety, but was moved to the slide with the 92S (S for "safety") so that it could function as an active, mechanical firing pin block. the Brazilian military contract was so large, that, like in the US, it was better and more effective to build the pistols locally and import a few Italian parts than entire pistols. at the conclusion of the contract, the Beretta sold the factory to the government to concentrate on the US market with the M9 pistol and to sell the 92F globally. Brazil then sold the factory to Taurus International (who recently bought Rossi) and updated the 92 with a few features of the 92F and eventually the 92FS.

the improvement to a slide mounted safety is at least a fair sight better than the M1951...

...I found that the blowback mechanism of anything larger than a .22 made me miss significantly...I never had a problem with revolvers...

you're likely either sensitive to a disturbed sight picture because you are not concentrating on the front sight when firing an automatic, or you need a thicker grip for your pistol that interacts with your palm better. if you have a target set at 15 meters, do some slow fire and watch where your shots are landing when your point of aim is at the center - don't try to adjust anything, just shoot the center and see where the shots go.

if they are stringing vertically you need to improve your grip through technique or mechanics, if they are towards your dominant hand, you are pulling on the trigger during fire or under recoil and you need a larger front to back diameter or better finger placement. if the shots are landing towards your weak side, then you have too little finger on the trigger and during the squeeze you are pushing the trigger towards that side and need to adjust your grip to better center the pistol.

if it's consistently to the left and off center, then you need to practice keeping the pistol centered, because unlike a revolver, the frame is much more vertical and your grip must not "cup" the heel with the dominant hand's weak fingers at the bottom. that will tilt the pistol towards the weak side.

 

[Varg Did Nothing Wrong]

I don't know if the 5.7mm round won't penetrate through drywall. It's renowned for its ability to punch through kevlar. Any rifle really has a potential to overpenetrate a house's walls. Personally I'd recommend a shotgun but not like the way Uncle Joe Biden says to just blindly fire off two blasts.

As for the dude who wants to buy the P90 clone, if he has the cash to burn, go for it. Just realize it's not what most would regard as the ideal home defense weapon.

Modern intermediate cartridge rifles in 5.56 and 5.45 will overpenetrate less than a pistol firing 9mm ball or a shotgun loaded with 000 buck, at least out of a barrel long enough to speed the bullet up to the proper speed. Might not out of an 8.5" super shorty AR pistol, but out of a 14.5" absolutely. The bullet is light and starts to tumble or shatters after the first few sheets of drywall, it doesn't retain energy well at all after that.

I didn't say drywall, I specifically said exterior walls. I did see a video suggesting that the round would be much less lethal after two sheets of drywall (so one wall,) but obviously I'm not going to make safety decisions based on a Youtube video.
And what would you recommend for a home defense weapon? I don't think shotguns really have the ammo capacity, and I'm skeptical of using just a handgun.

A relatively short barreled carbine like an AR-15 with a 14.5 or maybe even 10.5" barrel. It will be loud as fuck though. Might want to have a pair of active headphones on the gun to put on if/when you need to do something.

Alternatively look into a pistol caliber carbine and load it with non-ball ammo. It'll still overpenetrate far more than 5.56 but it will be slightly less destructive for your ears.