Magic The Gathering

[Rich Evans Ayypologist]

but the fact that the deck looks like it would fold to any interaction

That's exactly what makes it boring. You aren't really playing the deck - the deck plays itself. All you do is try to fire off at a point where it looks like opponents won't have interaction.
And that's exactly why it's always the correct play to kill the person with the infinite or I-win combo in the command zone first - they can always, easily win out of nowhere.

It makes for a kindof stale play pattern, and it doesn't let you, as the pilot, adapt to particular circumstances and experience a bunch of different dimensions of the deck.
It lets you either win on-command or lose immediately to interaction.

 

[Retink Retunk]

100 cards just makes cascade really hard as a reliable tutor. If you want to be able to say, cast bloodbraid or shardless agent and a specific 3 mana spell off it you have to build your deck to have zero spells 0-2 cmc 1 spell at 3cmc and the rest at 4 cmc or more which kinds of just cripples your deck just to have an awkward tutor. Cascade just kind of has to be a value/chaos thing in EDH, which kinds of keeps it out of CEDH. Codie is probably my favorite cascade commander though but your opponents basically have to be high to to let you spin him.

That's the thing though, Cascade as a tutor is bad design but does happen in the form of cycle decks running cards that all cascade off of 3 into a Living End or cycling creatures to fill the grave before hitting the three drop that Cascades.

If Cascade is to function it just needs to be a value engine, but they can't really do that in a simple system like Magic, they'd need to go full Yugioh by making only specific cards trigger off of it which isn't what Magic wants to do. Now maybe they could dig down and do something like Cascades for X, where X is a tribe, a mana cost, or something, which is still bad as it becomes even more of a tutor instead of making it more of a fun mechanic.

 

[Flexo]

If Cascade is to function it just needs to be a value engine,

That's what I was saying makes "bigger" so much fun. You get to pick which spell you want to 2 for 1 in a turn. (or more if you do untap shenanigans).

Cascades for X, where X is a tribe, a mana cost, or something, which is still bad as it becomes even more of a tutor instead of making it more of a fun mechanic.

Um... you forgot about Discover in the latest Ixalan set didn't you?

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/the-lost-caverns-of-ixalan-release-notes

• "Discover N" means "Exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card with mana value N or less. That card is the "discovered" card. You may cast that card without paying its mana cost if the resulting spell's mana value is less than or equal to N. If you don't cast it, put that card into your hand. Put the remaining exiled cards on the bottom of your library in a random order."
• A spell's mana value is determined only by its mana cost. Ignore any alternative costs, additional costs, cost increases, or cost reductions.
• When you discover, you must exile cards. The only optional part of the ability is whether you cast the exiled card or put it into your hand.
• You exile the cards face up. All players will be able to see them.

 

[Retink Retunk]

Um... you forgot about Discover in the latest Ixalan set didn't you?

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/the-lost-caverns-of-ixalan-release-notes

• "Discover N" means "Exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card with mana value N or less. That card is the "discovered" card. You may cast that card without paying its mana cost if the resulting spell's mana value is less than or equal to N. If you don't cast it, put that card into your hand. Put the remaining exiled cards on the bottom of your library in a random order."
• A spell's mana value is determined only by its mana cost. Ignore any alternative costs, additional costs, cost increases, or cost reductions.
• When you discover, you must exile cards. The only optional part of the ability is whether you cast the exiled card or put it into your hand.
• You exile the cards face up. All players will be able to see them.

Discover is more of a sidegrade as it's better in that you can put it in hand instead of cast, but you actually need to resolve the Discover spell instead of getting it for free on cast.

I meant more as in Cascade for Goblins, where you flip cards until you hit a goblin of lesser cost or something.

 

[Oddjob OTP]

Now maybe they could dig down and do something like Cascades for X, where X is a tribe, a mana cost, or something, which is still bad as it becomes even more of a tutor instead of making it more of a fun mechanic.

That's Codie though, he's cascade into opps all spells because he prevents you from casting permanent spells while he's out. I think there is a design space that would be interesting (although probably only in limited) for... like... Cascade into Lessons. Just general purpose horse shit minor spells. Make them all model so you almost never completely wiff.

 

[Retink Retunk]

That's Codie though, he's cascade into opps all spells because he prevents you from casting permanent spells while he's out. I think there is a design space that would be interesting (although probably only in limited) for... like... Cascade into Lessons. Just general purpose horse shit minor spells. Make them all model so you almost never completely wiff.

There's probably some retarded way of making it work if you really drill down, maybe something like creating a new tribe that gets Cascaded into, so that it's highly controlled but WotC has shown it's incompetent with such things. You know, Cascade into Cascade Tribe, where you control what's in that tribe so it's fun but not broken. Maybe you can make it Cascade into that and/or Artifacts as most artifacts at lower costs aren't that amazing so it's fine for ramp off of mana rocks and random hits like Top in EDH.

Cascade into Historic might be ok? It would make Sagas more fun too.

 

[Flexo]

Like the tribal cycling?

 

[Oddjob OTP]

Cascade into Historic might be ok? It would make Sagas more fun too.

Well, we sort of have that but it's split across Jodah's cascade into legendries and Tom Bombadil's trigger when one of his sagas shit out.

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

Going back up past the Cascade stuff it's sounding like the Universes beyond sets seem to have a single good deck (Necrons, Masters of Evil) with the other 3 being average to mediocre and not really serving to retain players. Is it plausible to say these are less intended as gateways into Magic and more one shot monetary gains for Wizards from those franchises as people intrigued in them buy them? Closer to buying a board game because it is from a media material you recognise?

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Going back up past the Cascade stuff it's sounding like the Universes beyond sets seem to have a single good deck (Necrons, Masters of Evil) with the other 3 being average to mediocre and not really serving to retain players. Is it plausible to say these are less intended as gateways into Magic and more one shot monetary gains for Wizards from those franchises as people intrigued in them buy them? Closer to buying a board game because it is from a media material you recognise?

I would say 3/4 of the WH40K decks were decent, the only one that was really all that terrible was the Tyranid thing, but you could fix that with a few singles.

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

I would say 3/4 of the WH40K decks were decent, the only one that was really all that terrible was the Tyranid thing, but you could fix that with a few singles.

Let me guess, standard issue "big monster smash" with not enough acceleration to hit kills early enough before the control/combo decks go off?

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Let me guess, standard issue "big monster smash" with not enough acceleration to hit kills early enough before the control/combo decks go off?

Less that and more "It really needs an Ozilith, a Doubling season, a Temur Ascendancy and a Great Henge"

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

Less that and more "It really needs an Ozilith, a Doubling season, a Temur Ascendancy and a Great Henge"

Doesn't almost everything in those colours need some of those?

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Doesn't almost everything in those colours need some of those?

I mean it's specifically worse for The Tyranid because it's a Hydraish X deck with a +1/+1 counter theme so like you sink a bunch of mana into one creature and it gets yeeted..

having Ozolith and Temur Ascendancy specifically would help out a lot with that.

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

I mean it's specifically worse for The Tyranid because it's a Hydraish X deck with a +1/+1 counter theme so like you sink a bunch of mana into one creature and it gets yeeted..

having Ozolith and Temur Ascendancy specifically would help out a lot with that.

Needs that card draw then more than anything else so each big play is at least providing some value even if the played spell gets taken off the board before a chance to use it comes around.

Ozolith preserves the mana value too rather than seeing if all wash away.

I suppose both Henge and Doubling Season are too pricy to do reprints without shitting on their value, Temur is setting specific so that's their cover there and I assume Ozolith is setting specific. Could have maybe done a Hive Mind creature card that granted everything it blocked protection from creatures so it couldn't kill them but served a similar counter sink as Ozolith.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Could have maybe done a Hive Mind creature card that granted everything it blocked protection from creatures so it couldn't kill them but served a similar counter sink as Ozolith.

TFW Tyranid Deck should have Banding.

 

[Rich Evans Ayypologist]

Going back up past the Cascade stuff it's sounding like the Universes beyond sets seem to have a single good deck (Necrons, Masters of Evil) with the other 3 being average to mediocre and not really serving to retain players

In what sense? Monetary value, or construction? In terms of monetary value, they've all been pretty good. Tyranids is the odd one out in that regard, but otherwise they've all had a few cards to justify the price-points, even if continued print waves did start knocking them down.

Construction is where I think this complaint comes from. Necrons being one color really allowed it to be focused over the other two, which had a few really oddball inclusions (what the fuck is The Flesh is Weak doing in the imperium deck?). Masters of Evil has a bunch of relatively straightforward cards, as opposed to the other decks all fucking around with weird, trinkety shit like suspend, fading, or clue tokens.

Lord of the Rings also had the issue with the Sauron deck being this weird hode-podge of spellslinging and reanimating alongside Orc armies, whereas Elves, Hobbits, and Humans were all a lot more honed in and focused. But honestly, you're gonna start slotting in replacements for any prebuilt deck unless you like to keep them as pseudo-cubes, so monetary value is really all I care about.

And, unrelated, I do have to say - these Ixalan prebuilts are really impressive. Merfolk is like, every fucking Merfolk card you could want except for Lord of Atlantis and Vodalian Hexcatcher, both of which you can get for like $5 total.

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

In what sense? Monetary value, or construction? In terms of monetary value, they've all been pretty good. Tyranids is the odd one out in that regard, but otherwise they've all had a few cards to justify the price-points, even if continued print waves did start knocking them down.

Construction is where I think this complaint comes from. Necrons being one color really allowed it to be focused over the other two

Thanks, I'm basing it off people seemingly having a lot to say about Necrons and Masters of Evil and less about others. Hence why I said it was sounding like hat was the case. If that's not so I'm happy to hear.

(what the fuck is The Flesh is Weak doing in the imperium deck?).

Adeptus Mechanicus

Masters of Evil has a bunch of relatively straightforward cards, as opposed to the other decks all fucking around with weird, trinkety shit like suspend, fading, or clue tokens.

I do think there's potential for fun interactions with getting to bring back dead creatures as face down Cybermen. Can't decide if it should be a morph gimmick or a way to bounce creatures to your hand.

And, unrelated, I do have to say - these Ixalan prebuilts are really impressive. Merfolk is like, every fucking Merfolk card you could want except for Lord of Atlantis and Vodalian Hexcatcher, both of which you can get for like $5 total.

Not looked at the Ixalan stuff for a bit, skimmed them a whole back and looked like Merfolk would be fun but if they're more or less doing full Commander Merfolk in one go good on them.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

whereas Elves,

The LOTR elf deck was ass even compared to Sauron.

That Scry theme was junk.

 

[Rich Evans Ayypologist]

Thanks, I'm basing it off people seemingly having a lot to say about Necrons and Masters of Evil and less about others.

Yeah, it's probably more about their consistency and focus on a central theme than on the actual overall worth of the set. I'll get into what I mean by consistency here:

Adeptus Mechanicus

So the Imperium deck was, loosely, an esper go-wide deck. The whole focus was on making a lot of dudes and swinging in. Squad as a mechanic gets introduced here, which fits into that go-wide theme. The two commanders, Greyfax and Calgar, work with going wide. Greyfax's investigate ability is a little odd, but the 1/0 vigilance aura is genuinely crazy good.

Belisarius has a slight artifact theme, but it works with the deck because you're makin' dudes and cashing in on 'em. Severina introduces some aristocrats elements, but wants you to go wide for the first ability. Lots of riffs on that go-wide theme, different ways to approach it. Silly cards that are honestly not that good but which are hilarious to build around, like a counterspell that also hits abilities and might just blast someone for 30 damage.

But then there's a bunch of shit that doesn't really fit. There's a lifegain payoff reanimator card. There's miracle cards without a way to stack the top of the deck (though one does at least go wide). There's a reanimate life-gain card that has more colors than the life-gain payoff commander choice. There's a guy that cares about manipulating the top of your deck to have instants and sorceries, both things this deck doesn't focus on. These are weird side-tangents that don't make the deck unplayable, but they're weird inclusions.

But then there's The Flesh is Weak. This card pumps your team... when it comes down. And then? Then it permanently debuffs your deck.
There are six cards in the deck that make 1/1 tokens. These tokens immediately die when The Flesh is Weak is on the field. It's a truly idiotic inclusion.

I do think there's potential for fun interactions with getting to bring back dead creatures as face down Cybermen.

Works great with Thassa 2.0 and Conjurer's Closet, as well as a few instants and sorceries with the "under your control" wording. You get to yoink their stuff, then flip them up without giving them back. It's also a very straightforward mechanic that's plenty powerful, whereas the other Who decks involve you dicking around with like 30 different things to get minor advantages until everything comes together.

The LOTR elf deck was ass even compared to Sauron.

That Scry theme was junk.

I still count it as a coherent deck because "just elfball" works even if you've also appended scry and voting to it, and for whatever reason colossal whale and hornet queen.

UG mainset Elrond is also a pretty nutty elfball commander, though that's less because you build around scry, and more because of the +1/+1 counter Leovold ability.
Well, and Sylvan Anthem is real good in that deck.