JRPG General - Video games were never meant to be shorter than 50 hours.

[Grub]

I'll defend Chrono đTrigger as a masterpiece to my dying breath, so take it from me however,
but I don't see anything wrong with that portion of the game. The cave you go through in the Present is kind of just filler, though getting tossed out a whirlpool at the end of it was a little neat. It makes sense to have from a gameplay perspective since it gives the player more time to get acquainted with their new magic abilities, which IIRC the enemies in that cave are particularly weak to. The monster village and Melchior just before the cave serves as set up for stuff in the Middle Ages

I don't think it's bad. I just think it's fairly generic compared to the rest of the game and consists of a lot of 'go here get the thing, then go there get the next thing'. It's interesting enough to keep you going but nothing ever really stands out from other jrps. It's pretty standard stuff that wouldn't feel out of place in a Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy game. It just ends up being kind of forgettable when it's sandwiched between post apocalyptic world/learning about Lavos and showdown with Magus/going to Zeal.

 

[Retarded Weeb]

I don't think it's bad. I just think it's fairly generic compared to the rest of the game and consists of a lot of 'go here get the thing, then go there get the next thing'. It's interesting enough to keep you going but nothing ever really stands out from other jrps. It's pretty standard stuff that wouldn't feel out of place in a Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy game. It just ends up being kind of forgettable when it's sandwiched between post apocalyptic world/learning about Lavos and showdown with Magus/going to Zeal.

You know, "It's pretty standard stuff that wouldn't feel out of place in [a game from two of the most popular and highly regarded JRPG series]" is kind of weird as a criticism, isn't it?
I get saying the section of the game you're talking about it more low-key compared to finding out about Lavos and fighting Magus, but those are also some of biggest peaks and turning points of the story. You can't really expect the story to be nothing but that.

From the way you talk about it, it sounds like your problem with the game is likely that it's doing something that causes it to lose your full attention, and hence it feels tedious to get through and you're struggling to really remember much past the most critical plot points because you're just not fully invested in what's happening. Can you think of anything in particular about the game's story or any moment in it that makes you lose interest in what's going on? Can you think of some way you would rewrite the plot that you would find more interesting? Or, since you said you like games with more intricate gameplay systems and want story to not get in the way, is it possibly a matter of Chrono Trigger simply not requiring enough mental investment from you in terms of character building and such to beat it, so you don't really get invested in what's going on in the story side of the game either?

 

[00R-Gundam]

Man i wish they made a Valkyrie profile collection for Pc. Although i wouldnt blame them after the letdown that was Elysium.

 

[Grub]

You know, "It's pretty standard stuff that wouldn't feel out of place in [a game from two of the most popular and highly regarded JRPG series]" is kind of weird as a criticism, isn't it?
I get saying the section of the game you're talking about it more low-key compared to finding out about Lavos and fighting Magus, but those are also some of biggest peaks and turning points of the story. You can't really expect the story to be nothing but that.

To be honest I'm more critical of Chrono Trigger than I am other games just because of the praise it constantly gets so I probably sound more hard on the game than I actually feel about it. But, I do feel like it has a lot of flaws that get overlooked for whatever reason that other games get hammered for.

My problem with that section of the game is that Chrono Trigger doesn't have good enough gameplay to compensate for the fairly standard jrpg fetch quest sequence chain. You have nothing else to really pay attention to other than the story. It has probably one of the most basic gameplay systems you could stick in a jrpg, probably the worst version of the ATB system and the one unique thing, the combo system really just ends up being kind of gimmicky when you have single character attacks that can do almost as much damage and end up doing more damage when you stack attacks. Pair that with repetitive static encounters that never change, areas that are designed to make you walk as many steps as possible and retrace your steps so you repeatedly fight the same encounters and it ends up feeling like a generally forgettable section of game that only just exists because there needed to be something to do for a couple of hours.

I replayed Chrono Cross right afterwards and you can tell immediately they tried hard to fix a lot of the tedious gameplay issues from Chrono Trigger. Off the top of my head, they made areas less tedious, included shortcuts, allowed you to skip through areas you've already cleared instead of going through them over and over again(fucking Guardia forest), made encounters more random so you're not just fighting the same battles over and over again, and generally just mostly improved on the gameplay of Chrono Trigger in a lot of ways so obviously even the devs realized Chrono Trigger had issues.

I guess while I'm on the topic I also think the side quests at the end of the game could have been done a lot better. They vary wildly in quality and a lot of them could have just been included somewhere in the game instead of tacked on at the end like a list. It also might have made that mid-section feel a little less forgettable if there was some optional stuff you could find and do. It was like they took all the side stuff you would normally find as you're playing a Dragon Quest game, cut it out and stuck it all at the end and just said here you go.

 

[Retarded Weeb]

My problem with that section of the game is that Chrono Trigger doesn't have good enough gameplay to compensate for the fairly standard jrpg fetch quest sequence chain. You have nothing else to really pay attention to other than the story. It has probably one of the most basic gameplay systems you could stick in a jrpg, probably the worst version of the ATB system and the one unique thing, the combo system really just ends up being kind of gimmicky when you have single character attacks that can do almost as much damage and end up doing more damage when you stack attacks. Pair that with repetitive static encounters that never change, areas that are designed to make you walk as many steps as possible and retrace your steps so you repeatedly fight the same encounters and it ends up feeling like a generally forgettable section of game that only just exists because there needed to be something to do for a couple of hours.

That's pretty much as I thought. If you aren't that engaged with the gameplay because it's pretty easy, or inherently engaged with the story then it can't be helped. But I find it odd you think the game is very drawn out and repetitive with its encounter design. I think a lot people would say a strength of Chrono Trigger is that it doesn't harass you with random encounters and the number of encounters it does have are spaced out well enough to not feel draining. It's a fairly breezy RPG.

I guess while I'm on the topic I also think the side quests at the end of the game could have been done a lot better. They vary wildly in quality and a lot of them could have just been included somewhere in the game instead of tacked on at the end like a list. It also might have made that mid-section feel a little less forgettable if there was some optional stuff you could find and do. It was like they took all the side stuff you would normally find as you're playing a Dragon Quest game, cut it out and stuck it all at the end and just said here you go.

I think they were going for the sort structure Final Fantasy V and VI did. Like in FFV, the first couple thirds of the game are mostly linear, but once you have the airship in the merged world you're free to do as much of the remaining content you want before heading to the final dungeon. In FFVI, the first half of the game is linear, but once you have the airship in the post-destruction world you're free to do as much as you want before heading to the final dungeon. Same thing in CT, you're mostly led around on a linear story until you have the flying Epoch, at which point you're free to do as much of the remaining content as you want (saving Crono, all the side-quests, the Black Omen) in whatever order before fighting Lavos. I think something about CT just makes this feel like it's "the endgame with a lot of side-quests" in a way it doesn't in FFV or VI where it feels like "the last third" or "the second half of the game", even though really if you do all the side content in CT then that section is probably at least a fourth of the game.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

To be honest I'm more critical of Chrono Trigger than I am other games just because of the praise it constantly gets so I probably sound more hard on the game than I actually feel about it. But, I do feel like it has a lot of flaws that get overlooked for whatever reason that other games get hammered for.

I hate how many people harp on the start of the game. Frontloading content was always a thing and while it's a great first impression, the game never has that much choice, and treating it more than a gimmick just creates false expectations for the droves of people who will never play the game.

 

[LucasSomething]

To be honest I'm more critical of Chrono Trigger than I am other games just because of the praise it constantly gets so I probably sound more hard on the game than I actually feel about it. But, I do feel like it has a lot of flaws that get overlooked for whatever reason that other games get hammered for.

My problem with that section of the game is that Chrono Trigger doesn't have good enough gameplay to compensate for the fairly standard jrpg fetch quest sequence chain.

Because the reality is that chrono trigger isn't meant to be deep, it's meant to be very casual friendly game carried by spectacle, and people who overrate it don't admit that.

Finally, these are not chibis on a grid or first person PoVs anymore, these are real sprites moving freely with a bunch of cool anime moves.

The enemies are animated and they want you to see them on the overworld, which in turn removes random encounters, which in turn leads to less enemies and thus no reason to grind.

Character customization is minimal (no class, no unique command, no learning, only 4 equip slots) and they want you to feel badass so combat is designed around 1-2 turning enemies (much like persona) with proper AoE double techs or using the right magic element. The depth is low and the variety comes from different enemy positions, exclusive gimmicks and swaping team members to see their new techs and dual techs.

There are only 4 elements with most only having acess to 1 and not even buff spells. Status effects are extremely rare, you can beat the whole game without seeing half of them.

They want you to to feel spam skill as much as possible so you have a LOT of free heal spots (enertron), the Inn are like 10-50g, the tent item is only 150g and you can buy ethers relatively early.

The game starts with the fair which is a visual highlight to walk and after that it's very linear and near impossible to get lost other than forcing you to talk to specific npcs to progress, with very little sidequests until basically the end of the game.

The main story is very simple but perpetually escalates in stakes and drama while wasting zero, to the point it might feel "rushed" compared to modern jrpgs.

Chrono trgiger is still kinda overrated but the real reason chrono trigger works and Sea of Stars doesn't is because Sea of stars is actually kinda slow and lame. If you're going to have shallow combat and story then at least make it cool and fast.

Sea of Stars also suffers the problem a ton of indie jrpgs have of useless battle minigames that make shit unnecessarily slow and stressful without making it deeper. The infinite boomerang spell for example is retarded as you can spend more time on it than it a CT battle. I know it's the shell kick from mario & luigi but the shell kick was a mistake and ruined a generation. Mario and luigi SSS is similar to CT in a sense, as it's really about fast spectacle.

The most "stressful" thing in CT is when you see a new enemy and don't know how to deal with it or you intentionally wait it out for another characters turn to unlock the dual tech, which feels good because you hear the ping and isn't tiresome.

 

[Grub]

But I find it odd you think the game is very drawn out and repetitive with its encounter design. I think a lot people would say a strength of Chrono Trigger is that it doesn't harass you with random encounters and the number of encounters it does have are spaced out well enough to not feel draining. It's a fairly breezy RPG.

It wouldn't be so bad if either the encounters were more varied or you weren't forced to backtrack over the same areas so much when the enemies respawn almost every time a screen loads. There's also several points of the game that force you to fight multiple battles in a row of the same enemies with maybe one or two extra added each time. The only real difference between Chrono Trigger's method and Chrono Cross's method is that Chrono Cross's encounters aren't static. You won't always fight the exact same enemies every single time you run into an enemy on the map screen and just that difference does a lot to cut down on the repetition and makes backtracking feel a little less tedious.

I think they were going for the sort structure Final Fantasy V and VI did. Like in FFV, the first couple thirds of the game are mostly linear, but once you have the airship in the merged world you're free to do as much of the remaining content you want before heading to the final dungeon. In FFVI, the first half of the game is linear, but once you have the airship in the post-destruction world you're free to do as much as you want before heading to the final dungeon. Same thing in CT,

Final Fantasy V and VI both have optional stuff throughout the game not just at the end. Even during the more linear sections of the game.

even though really if you do all the side content in CT then that section is probably at least a fourth of the game.

It's not even close to that. It took me probably about an hour to do all the side content at the end of the game before fighting Lavos. The longest one is the Sunstone quest.

I hate how many people harp on the start of the game. Frontloading content was always a thing and while it's a great first impression, the game never has that much choice, and treating it more than a gimmick just creates false expectations for the droves of people who will never play the game.

I just find it to be kind of a drag to play through. Especially once you get to 2300AD. That first time through there is probably my least favourite part of the entire game.

Because the reality is that chrono trigger isn't meant to be deep, it's meant to be very casual friendly game carried by spectacle, and people who overrate it don't admit that.

I agree with this though I always kind of looked at it more like the greatest hits album of snes era jrpgs. It's pretty much a mix of the best ideas from both Square's and Enix's rpgs but, kind of like a greatest hits album it's kind of shallow and misses some of the 'deep cuts' from those games. There's nothing wrong with a greatest hits album but it's going to be lacking some of the less popular but still good stuff.

The enemies are animated and they want you to see them on the overworld, which in turn removes random encounters, which in turn leads to less enemies and thus no reason to grind.

I mentioned this above but the problem is mostly that the encounters are always the same every single time. Chrono Cross has the same visible enemy encounters but the encounters aren't fixed so the enemies won't always be exactly the same every time you fight them. Chrono Cross also makes grinding basically impossible as you will stop gaining stats until you defeat the next boss. Just changing the encounters so the enemy groups aren't static makes a big difference in the tediousness of encounters.

The main story is very simple but perpetually escalates in stakes and drama while wasting zero, to the point it might feel "rushed" compared to modern jrpgs.

It's not too bad until the endgame but I wish the Zeal stuff had gotten a bit more background. The end of the game feels a bit rushed but overall the pacing isn't terrible.

The most "stressful" thing in CT is when you see a new enemy and don't know how to deal with it or you intentionally wait it out for another characters turn to unlock the dual tech, which feels good because you hear the ping and isn't tiresome.

I didn't really find that stressful. The enemy gimmicks were more annoying than anything else.

 

[Prophetic Spirit]

It's not too bad until the endgame but I wish the Zeal stuff had gotten a bit more background. The end of the game feels a bit rushed but overall the pacing isn't terrible

The only way to get more background is bringing Magus to the Black Omen's final battle.
Music changes from Battle 2 (the epic one) to Battle with Magus (his battle song), which fits perfectly.

 

[Retarded Weeb]

It's not even close to that. It took me probably about an hour to do all the side content at the end of the game before fighting Lavos. The longest one is the Sunstone quest.

I don't believe this. I checked a world record 100% speedrun of the game and that guy took an hour and a half to do everything between getting the flying Epoch and fighting Lavos, so unless you blitzed through everything at speedrun pace then I think your underestimating how much time it really took you. And even more importantly, it took him about an hour and half to do endgame compared to taking about 3 and half hours to do everything up to that, and other 100% speedruns seem similar (or even slower to finish the endgame), so my estimation appears to be correct that doing all the side quests means that the rest of the game after getting the flying Epoch takes up roughly 30% of your total playtime. If that really doesn't sound right to you, then I can only guess you were taking your time in the earlier parts of the game but rushing through it at the end because you wanted to get it over with.

 

[Samuel Fuller]

I don't believe this. I checked a world record 100% speedrun of the game and that guy took an hour and a half to do everything between getting the flying Epoch and fighting Lavos, so unless you blitzed through everything at speedrun pace then I think your underestimating how much time it really took you. And even more importantly, it took him about an hour and half to do endgame compared to taking about 3 and half hours to do everything up to that, and other 100% speedruns seem similar (or even slower to finish the endgame), so my estimation appears to be correct that doing all the side quests means that the rest of the game after getting the flying Epoch takes up roughly 30% of your total playtime. If that really doesn't sound right to you, then I can only guess you were taking your time in the earlier parts of the game but rushing through it at the end because you wanted to get it over with.

*you're underestimating

 

[Retarded Weeb]

*you're underestimating

 

[Grub]

TheI don't believe this. I checked a world record 100% speedrun of the game and that guy took an hour and a half to do everything between getting the flying Epoch and fighting Lavos, so unless you blitzed through everything at speedrun pace then I think your underestimating how much time it really took you. And even more importantly, it took him about an hour and half to do endgame compared to taking about 3 and half hours to do everything up to that, and other 100% speedruns seem similar (or even slower to finish the endgame), so my estimation appears to be correct that doing all the side quests means that the rest of the game after getting the flying Epoch takes up roughly 30% of your total playtime. If that really doesn't sound right to you, then I can only guess you were taking your time in the earlier parts of the game but rushing through it at the end because you wanted to get it over with.

You're right, I just checked it was 3 hours.

 

[Scarlett Johansson]

Am in the middle of chapter 2 of Visions. Its....actually good?! I couldn't get into the mana games but this one is good. Its not the greatest game in the world of course. Story is simplistic as fuck but its...oddly charming? The water lady is very powerful. I'm not really sure why reception was so mixed?

Trails from Zero is finally getting re-released again for ps5 and switch 2. I used to regret selling my switch copy. But now I'm fine because all the Trails for me are playstation.

 

[Gamepads]

Am in the middle of chapter 2 of Visions. Its....actually good?! I couldn't get into the mana games but this one is good. Its not the greatest game in the world of course. Story is simplistic as fuck but its...oddly charming? The water lady is very powerful. I'm not really sure why reception was so mixed?

It's very pretty, but front-loaded. The complaints usually come later.

 

[Froggy Fresh Sextape]

I guess while I'm on the topic I also think the side quests at the end of the game could have been done a lot better.

Narrative-wise it makes more sense than most JRPGs. You got a space ship that travels through time, you're under no pressure to go fight Lavos so you can just roam around helping people. Unlike, say, FF7 or something where Meteor's coming to destroy the planet and you just fuck off raising chocobos for months.

Gameplay-wise yes it is indeed weird to have so much content backloaded, but I think the intention was that CT would be played by people new to the genre who would immediately use the Epoch to bust through Lavos and then get their ass beat to death by the core. Now helpful old man tells you that there are a bunch of side quests you can do to get stronger.

 

[Grub]

Narrative-wise it makes more sense than most JRPGs. You got a space ship that travels through time, you're under no pressure to go fight Lavos so you can just roam around helping people. Unlike, say, FF7 or something where Meteor's coming to destroy the planet and you just fuck off raising chocobos for months.

I think it's mostly the Ozzie one, the ghost one, the shell one and Robo's one that bug me. The sunstone one makes sense because it takes place over all the time periods and Fiona's one makes for a natural endgame quest. There's no reason why the Ozzie one shouldn't become available once you get access to portals again after defeating Magus. The Robo one could really be done any time after getting Robo. The quests themselves also ranged from pretty cool and well thought out to just redoing the same/extremely similar dungeons again for some extra stuff.

I do get what you're saying though and I get why they did it the way they did. They could have even left the list at the end because first time players would probably miss stuff that stuff if it was just there in the game but it would have been nice if the option to do some of it early was there. Especially because the game's already designed around the idea of a NG+.