Israel/Palestine?

What is the solution to the Isareli Palestine Conflict?

 

[Captain Lhurgoyf]

Eli.

 

[MasterMan]

Just try to combine the two cultures so there aren't as many differences? May speak every other word in Arabic/Hebrew?

 

[exball]

People have been killing each other with sticks and rocks for thousands of years. We've fought over a rather diverse amount of things. I don't think a solution is as simple as combine the two cultures and hope it works out.

 

[A-Stump]

Nothing because they're both being total faggots to each other

 

[The Knife's Husbando]

The whole centuries-long Israel/Palestine conflict is a testament to just how healthy organized religion is to the normal human psyche.

 

[BT 075]

What is the solution to the Isareli Palestine Conflict?

The solution is let Jace assassinate all their leaders.

 

[KatsuKitty]

Israel wants Palestine gone.

Palestine wants Israel gone.

Neither side has ever wavered on this belief one iota.

It's always going to be an endless pissing match.

 

[MasterMan]

The thing that really gets me, is how far leftists say Israel is the "new Nazi Germany" and think that Hamas are just peaceful, "Dances with Wolves" flower children. They are pretty much the same as ISIS really.
I am worried at how Israel is being "delegitimized", and shown to be a bad country, when ( despite its flaws) it is easily the most progressive and "human rightsy" country in that region by far.
When it was first founded in 1948, Im pretty sure it was the most progressive/ liberal country in the world at that time, definitely more so than the USA (unless we had female soldiers in our army and racial minorities in our congress/senate back then).
I know the Gaza blockade and west bank wall have rough consequences, but can you blame the Israelis for wanting them there? Before both existed (in late 90s early 2000s) there were regularly occurring suicide bomber attacks on Israeli buses, night clubs, and restaurants.

Anyway, this guy has some cool points:

 

[OBAMATRON]

2 assholes 1 chunk of land

More seriously, the solution is for both groups to stop tormenting each other and get with the two state plan. The Israelis go out of their way to encroach onto other peoples land, then the Palestinians pop off some rockets. It won't end until someone stops poking the other side. IMO, the jews are in a good position to end things, but they seem intent on possessing the entire region.

 

[MasterMan]

They tried to earlier,but Hamas refused to go along with it. Can you imagine how long the Israelis would last if the power disparities between the two were reversed?

 

[BT 075]

They tried to earlier,but Hamas refused to go along with it. Can you imagine how long the Israelis would last if the power disparities between the two were reversed?

As I understand it, Israel won't even talk to Hamas as they consider it a terrorist organization and they refuse to talk to terrorists. There was also this freezing of money flows (ensuring Hamas officials got no salaries), and then when Hamas and Fatah had some sort of alliance Israel also got pissy about it and began rapidly expanding settlements.

I think the main issue is, they don't really speak out against assholes in their own midst. Hamas allows little independent groups of rebels to fire rockets and does little to stop them, and Israel isn't all too firm on the settlers either. I think on both sides of the conflict there are still people with an interest in not solving the conflict. Otherwise it would have been solved already.

There's also the Palestinian refugee issue; the Israeli's might consider letting the elderly refugees of 1948 back in but not their children and grandchildren, so they consider to be heaped up in camps in the rest of the Middle East being mistreated by various Arab states. And at the same time Orthodox Jews have gigantic families. If they don't find a permanent and lasting solution, they never will because demographics simply won't allow it. That is, if it's even possible at this point which I seriously doubt. Chances are, that ship has long since sailed.

My solution is the one proposed by Palestinian moderate Salam Fayyad, to create one state and forget about a fully independent Palestine altogether.

 

[The Dude]

I think both sides have a persecution complex, and rightly so to SOME extent, but to the point that neither wants to actually come to peace. They figure that if they can point at the other and say "See? SEE? They keep attacking us! Please support us so we can fight our enemies!" Of course a lot of it has to do with the radicals on each side. I tend to side mostly with Israel because I feel the Jews deserve a home of their own and the Jewish people have been in that area since before Muhammad was even born, but the Palestinians also have historical ties, both ethnically and religiously, to the region as well.

Has anyone ever read the Tom Clancy novel "The Sum of All Fears?" In it peace is brought to the area by Israel giving up some land to the Palestinians to call their own and Jerusalem is turned into a protected city-state that is guarded by the Swiss Guard. It is governed by the top leaders from the Jewish, Muslim, and Christian faiths. The Swiss Guards even have special patches created with the Cross, Star of David, and Moon and Star on it and there are three versions of the patch, each with one of the religious symbols at the top of the patch so that no one religious symbol is shown having favor over the others. I wish something like that could happen.

When I was younger, just after 9/11, I was a bit of a chest beating warhawk. I became hateful towards Muslims and pretty racist. As I've grown and learned more throughout my adult life I came to realize that the Islamic faith shares it's roots with my own Christian faith. I asked myself "Would the Lord want me to have these hateful feelings towards these people?" And I came to the conclusion that they were also the children of God and that I should love them as my brothers. Some of them can do evil things, but I should be praying for peace and understanding with them, not praying for them to be destroyed.

Now, I do understand that war is sometimes unavoidable. But I've become more of a non-interventionist. I'm glad we have a military to protect our country when needed, but I've grown tired of the US being the world police.

 

[Marvin]

Eh, muslim countries in the middle east mostly seem like dogshit. If Israel wasn't being slimy and disgusting to the Palestinians, I'd support Israel 100%.

 

[Mogambo]

I think the biggest problem is that disproportionate weight is given to the issue by Western, and specifically American, interest groups which have little to no connection to the actual events on the ground. Evangelical Christians are free to fan the flames of ignorance and hatred from the comfort of their own homes, while Israelis and especially Palestinians wind up suffering the consequences. If so many people weren't conceited by the delusion that Jerusalem is some sort of magic holy site, then both sides would be a hell of a lot better off. The locals, whether Israeli or Palestinian, live there.

You'll notice there have been lots of other incidents of violence around the world that didn't receive nearly the same treatment. Did Rwanda? The Congo Civil War? Sudan? China's invasion of Tibet? Colombia? East Timor? Sierra Leone? The fighting going on right now in Ukraine, and Syria, and Mexico, and elsewhere? Nope, of course not.

The best solution would be to simply make it one state. Arabs already have legal representation in Israel, Arabic is recognized as an official language, and Shariah law (yes, that scary word which sends Western readers into catatonic fits) is actually used by the state of Israel. Of course, the reason we won't see this is two fold. The first is that too many parties and leaders on the Palestinian side (along with their Western and Arab backers) don't want to cede any power. The second is that the Jewish population of Israel doesn't want to be a plurality. And of course with the US constantly meddling we aren't going to see any viable peace plan anyway, so I may as well save my breath.

Just try to combine the two cultures so there aren't as many differences? May speak every other word in Arabic/Hebrew?

Arabic is an official language in Israel. Hell, roughly a quarter of Israelis are of Arab descent.

The whole centuries-long Israel/Palestine conflict is a testament to just how healthy organized religion is to the normal human psyche.

It's not really a centuries long conflict. Israel has only existed since 1948, and even the idea of Zionism is really a late 19th/early 20th century idea dreamed up by Theodor Herzl. Hell, if anything, during the Ottoman centuries and before, Jewish communities got along better with the Muslim nations than with the Christian ones. Aside from Jews already living Jerusalem, you also had Sefardi communities fleeing persecution in Spain whom the Ottomans allowed to resettle in Jerusalem started about 500 years ago.

It's not really a religious conflict either. The Jews don't believe in converting non-Jews. It's an ethnic conflict where many Palestinians (Muslim and Christian) view the Jewish settlers as forcing them off their homelands, where they have been living for generations, while the Jews (some of whom are non-practicing) view it as their "homeland," even if their ancestors were kicked out two thousand years ago by the Romans. Rhetoric aside, it is much more ethnic.

When I was younger, just after 9/11, I was a bit of a chest beating warhawk. I became hateful towards Muslims and pretty racist. As I've grown and learned more throughout my adult life I came to realize that the Islamic faith shares it's roots with my own Christian faith. I asked myself "Would the Lord want me to have these hateful feelings towards these people?" And I came to the conclusion that they were also the children of God and that I should love them as my brothers. Some of them can do evil things, but I should be praying for peace and understanding with them, not praying for them to be destroyed.

I think that pretty much sums up the problem with American involvement with the Middle East, and with most of the rest of the world for that matter, especially the huge chunk that is overwhelmingly non-Western and non-Christian. Since 9-11, the government and the ignorant masses have pushed for decidedly anti-Muslim policies, and its kind of hard to ignore. If it weren't for meddling from various groups in the US (who are neither Jewish, nor Muslim, nor Arab) then the Israel-Palestine thing would resolve itself much faster.

Eh, muslim countries in the middle east mostly seem like dogshit.

Egypt was great before the revolution, and I'd still prefer Zamalek or Heliopolis over most US neighbourhoods. Turkey is still good. Lebanon is beautiful. Iran is great, if a bit stifling at times. I personally don't like the UAE at all, but American, British, Australian and European expats live pretty high on the horse in cities like Abu Dhabi and Dubai. And of course, that's ignoring the fact that there are lots of Muslim majority countries that AREN'T in the Middle East (Pakistan, Senegal, Morocco, Bangladesh, Niger, Albania, Uzbekistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Maldives, Kyrgyzstan, Burkina Faso) as well as Muslim minority areas (Zanzibar in Tanzania, Mindanao in the Philippines, Patani in Thailand, Tatarstan, Daghestan and Chechnya in Russia, Hausaland in Nigeria, East Turkestan/Uyghurstan in China, the Pomaks in Bulgaria, the Lipka Tatars in Poland, the Moors in Sri Lanka, the Rohingyas in Burma, much of India, etc).

The bigger problem is that so much of the Muslim world lies in the developing world, for various historical reasons, arguably including exclusion by the European colonial powers (the Europeans long sought to bypass trading with the Ottoman Turks, and indeed Western literature expresses a profound hatred from Muhammad, even into the Enlightenment, despite a general decline in religious orthodoxy) and continued exploitation (read up on how Trafigura dumping toxic waste in Côte d'Ivoire, or the Bhopal disaster, or sweatshops in Saipain; none of which are Muslim majority nations I should add), as well as phenomenally terrible leadership. This is of course not exclusive to the Muslim world at all. Just look at countries like Papua New Guinea, Colombia, Brazil, Kenya, Congo, Rwanda, Malawi, Zimbabwe, the Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, Ecuador... none of which are Muslim majority at all. And yet crime, violence, and poverty are all very serious issues.

 

[Marvin]

Egypt was great before the revolution, and I'd still prefer Zamalek or Heliopolis over most US neighbourhoods. Turkey is still good. Lebanon is beautiful. Iran is great, if a bit stifling at times. I personally don't like the UAE at all, but American, British, Australian and European expats live pretty high on the horse in cities like Abu Dhabi and Dubai. And of course, that's ignoring the fact that there are lots of Muslim majority countries that AREN'T in the Middle East (Pakistan, Senegal, Morocco, Bangladesh, Niger, Albania, Uzbekistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Maldives, Kyrgyzstan, Burkina Faso) as well as Muslim minority areas (Zanzibar in Tanzania, Mindanao in the Philippines, Patani in Thailand, Tatarstan, Daghestan and Chechnya in Russia, Hausaland in Nigeria, East Turkestan/Uyghurstan in China, the Pomaks in Bulgaria, the Lipka Tatars in Poland, the Moors in Sri Lanka, the Rohingyas in Burma, much of India, etc).

The bigger problem is that so much of the Muslim world lies in the developing world, for various historical reasons, arguably including exclusion by the European colonial powers (the Europeans long sought to bypass trading with the Ottoman Turks, and indeed Western literature expresses a profound hatred from Muhammad, even into the Enlightenment, despite a general decline in religious orthodoxy) and continued exploitation (read up on how Trafigura dumping toxic waste in Côte d'Ivoire, or the Bhopal disaster, or sweatshops in Saipain; none of which are Muslim majority nations I should add), as well as phenomenally terrible leadership. This is of course not exclusive to the Muslim world at all. Just look at countries like Papua New Guinea, Colombia, Brazil, Kenya, Congo, Rwanda, Malawi, Zimbabwe, the Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, Ecuador... none of which are Muslim majority at all. And yet crime, violence, and poverty are all very serious issues.

The emirates seem like shit to me because of how they treat migrant workers. I don't have much of an opinion on Egypt, but I guess they seem more willing to negotiate, which is better. Turkey is better too.

Heh, and yeah, I specifically meant muslim countries in the middle east. And actually, now that I look at it, it's more that any country where there's an official relationship between the government and islam is bad.

Haha, like this sort of thing is very funny to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam

 

[Holdek]

Iran is...a bit stifling at times.

Haha, like this sort of thing is very funny to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam

That's pretty lulzy.

But yeah, Turkey is only better because Ataturk relentlessly curb-stomped any vestiges of Islam in public life. Although it's been sliding backwards more recently.

 

[Carlos Thin]

The whole situation is just

 

[IwegalBadnik]

Everything would be just fine if one side quit harassing the other--of course with the constant backing of that aggressor side, they don't seem too keen to bring the conflict to an end.

Nope, much better to continue to blame the other side for everything that goes on.

 

[Mogambo]

The emirates seem like shit to me because of how they treat migrant workers.

Which is largely because the royal families and Western corporations are in bed together exploiting foreign workers. There's a reason that white expats from Europe, Britain and the US are able to live so high on the horse in the UAE, while Asian workers don't.

Heh, and yeah, I specifically meant muslim countries in the middle east. And actually, now that I look at it, it's more that any country where there's an official relationship between the government and islam is bad.

You... do realize that Israel has an official relationship with Islam, right? As in Shariah law is actually recognized in Israel. Legally. Anyway, the bigger problem is the interrelationship between state and religion, something that unfortunately still exists even in Europe and hell even the US. Ever hear about "blue laws?" Funny I don't see many atheists talk about that shit.

Haha, like this sort of thing is very funny to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam

That's hardly unique though. One of the major claims that many religious groups have taken with the UN declaration on human rights is that it seems to favor conversion to universal religions like Christianity, or atheism, without respecting indigenous claims to sovereignty. Think about it like this, some random small Baptist church in buttfuck USA has the money, influence and ability to send missionaries to even the most remote corners of India. Does any group have similar capabilities? In India, there are actually conversion laws to make sure conversions are sincere, because Christian missionaries in the past have bribed people with offers of money, clothing, food, even medical treatment. That's why many Buddhist and Hindu countries had the exact same objections. Even non-Western Christians feared this; in the 19th and 20th centuries, Protestants actually tried to convert young Coptic children in schools so they would be able to infiltrate Coptic leadership and dissolve the church from within.

I take it you haven't heard of the Asian Values movement and the Bangkok Declaration then?

But yeah, Turkey is only better because Ataturk relentlessly curb-stomped any vestiges of Islam in public life. Although it's been sliding backwards more recently.

Mustafa Kemal Paşa secularized Turkey, but to say he 'curb stomped any vestiges of Islam' is a bit silly since Turkey is still well over 95% Muslim.