Islam

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On the one hand, Ntwadumela is one of the only people here that's muslim and willing to argue about it. On the other, this thread devolves into him giving apologia every half-page. I suppose we should just be glad he isn't a Turk trying to deny his county's numerous sins.
 
The handling of Islam but particularly of "moderate" muslims with kiddie gloves is as present on this forum as anywhere else in the western world. I don't believe for a second anyone here would tolerate the same sort of bullshit from any christian. But gasp, it's a muuuuslim, he's a lone minority on the forum, so of course it's normal to talk to him about his religion as if you were talking to a guy standing on the edge of a bridge about to jump off. I don't find any of his posts informative. It is the same sort of nonsense spewed by "moderate" muslims the world over. Complete refusal to look at the root of the issue, and placate the dissonance with endless false equivalencies, excuses, justifications.
 
The handling of Islam but particularly of "moderate" muslims with kiddie gloves is as present on this forum as anywhere else in the western world. I don't believe for a second anyone here would tolerate the same sort of bullshit from any christian. But gasp, it's a muuuuslim, he's a lone minority on the forum, so of course it's normal to talk to him about his religion as if you were talking to a guy standing on the edge of a bridge about to jump off. I don't find any of his posts informative. It is the same sort of nonsense spewed by "moderate" muslims the world over. Complete refusal to look at the root of the issue, and placate the dissonance with endless false equivalencies, excuses, justifications.

The only reason we do this is because it's interesting to have someone who is part of the group that is being discussed involved in the discussion. However, that last sentence i 100% agree with.
 
There may very well be good Muslims but the incredibly high amount of violence and authoritarianism within the religion leads me to believe it has nothing to offer a modern progressive state. Either reform and renounce violence or be delegated to history.
 
There may very well be good Muslims but the incredibly high amount of violence and authoritarianism within the religion leads me to believe it has nothing to offer a modern progressive state. Either reform and renounce violence or be delegated to history.
They should not reform. Reformation is what lead to Wahabism and Islamism. They should instead be very apathetic and irreligious as they traditionally were
 
They should not reform. Reformation is what lead to Wahabism and Islamism. They should instead be very apathetic and irreligious as they traditionally were

I read this three times and still have no idea what you're talking about. Stop trying to sound smarter than you are and make your point clearly.
 
I read this three times and still have no idea what you're talking about. Stop trying to sound smarter than you are and make your point clearly.
Traditionally (as in 900-1500) Islam was much more "liberal" but then it reformed to become more violent
 
Elaborate, this sounds interesting.
Although Islam was violent in its conquests initially it pretty much stopped with fanaticism during the Abbasid Caliphate (in Sunni Islam) in 750. After the sack of Baghdad the culture became less productive but it remained relatively secular. Islam was combined with local traditions which were also respected. The fanaticism we know now originated with the Salafism and Wahhabism and did not become mainstream until the late 20th century when Saudi Arabia and to a lesser extend America started funding extremist groups. Ayatollah Khomeini and the Iranian Revolution was a sort of exception due to being a Shia and having a movement very different from other forms of Islamic Extremism (and really quite unusual in its nature being almost without precedent and having few similar movements later on)
 
The handling of Islam but particularly of "moderate" muslims with kiddie gloves is as present on this forum as anywhere else in the western world. I don't believe for a second anyone here would tolerate the same sort of bullshit from any christian. But gasp, it's a muuuuslim, he's a lone minority on the forum, so of course it's normal to talk to him about his religion as if you were talking to a guy standing on the edge of a bridge about to jump off. I don't find any of his posts informative. It is the same sort of nonsense spewed by "moderate" muslims the world over. Complete refusal to look at the root of the issue, and placate the dissonance with endless false equivalencies, excuses, justifications.

You have a point with this, although us softies only came in later to try and see if any kind of gap could be bridged for the sake of conversation. This isn't always because of PC liberalism, sometimes it is simply because an inside perspective, no matter how biased, emotional, or distorted can be insightful and interesting if you have the context to read it properly. This is why videos showing the internal workings of ISIS are interesting- especially when filmed from their perspective. I can say that my reasons are self-serving: a window into Islam is something that I rarely get and the validity of the opinions weren't very relevant to me. Only learning about how Islam sees itself was. Collectively we just got the psychology of @Ntwadumela.

And contrary to your claims, while the "kid gloves" may be present, the vast majority of the user base is anti-Islamic and has operated no holds barred (which doesn't concern me either way, really.) I seriously doubt that any one is easier on Islam simply because the user base has a large subset of Christians or something (i.e. not a "lone minority") and everyone just feels bad for the poor little Muslim(s) that nobody loves. I assume that you just meant to say that Christianity is safer target socially, outside of the Farms, but I find it odd that those same rules, in your mind, would apply here. I certainly haven't witnessed ANYONE'S religion being handled with loving care. The idea sort of makes me chuckle. I think you were just shocked to find anyone at all who even tolerated Muslims, as that behavior is rare on sites so linked to the Chans, and assumed that your safe-space had been compromised.

While it is impossible to say for certain, I would peg most Kiwis as fedora-tippers of a soft or hard variety. Then again, I am as much a fanatic as any fanatic ever was and anything short of "church every Sunday" looks effectively atheistic to me.

I read this three times and still have no idea what you're talking about. Stop trying to sound smarter than you are and make your point clearly.

What @autisticdragonkin is attempting to say, I believe, is that Islam drifted towards fundamentalism in the latter half of the early modern era, which is true. Islam became more radical (in comparison to the faiths around it) as it lost power and legitimacy. The rise of conservative Islamic schools particularly in Africa helped speed this process along, aided in no small part by the British and French conquests. The conquest of Arabia by the House of Al-Saud was really the death knell for modern Islam, as the kings made sort of a Devil's Deal with an extremist desert prophet in exchange for fanatical church support.

Although I would dispute the idea that Islam was ever really liberal or irreligious by any modern sense of the word or even in a contemporary sense. It just traditionally concerned itself with amassing riches, collecting the jiyza tax, and fueling the expansion of an endless serious of Bedouin dynasties. If Islam then displayed the degree of lust for mass conversion it does now however, I doubt there would be a lot of the world left to dispute ISIS.
 
The handling of Islam but particularly of "moderate" muslims with kiddie gloves is as present on this forum as anywhere else in the western world. I don't believe for a second anyone here would tolerate the same sort of bullshit from any christian. But gasp, it's a muuuuslim, he's a lone minority on the forum, so of course it's normal to talk to him about his religion as if you were talking to a guy standing on the edge of a bridge about to jump off. I don't find any of his posts informative. It is the same sort of nonsense spewed by "moderate" muslims the world over. Complete refusal to look at the root of the issue, and placate the dissonance with endless false equivalencies, excuses, justifications.
Hate to break it to you man, but none of what I said was any Taqqiya bullshit. This was how I was raised to practice Islam growing up. If it really surprises you that there are Muslims like this that aren't like the ones you interacted with growing up abroad, than you really need to start seeing more of the world. I don't have hatred for you as a person. Do you think I accept and like everything that's going on right now with the world? Fuck no. Do you think I view every Atheist as an elitist who thinks he/she knows everything? Of course not. I have had friends who are *gasp* Atheists as impossible as it sounds. Religious beliefs or lack thereof do not solely define an individual's personality. It is his/her interests, traits, actions, goals and views on the world that do.
You have a point with this, although us softies only came in later to try and see if any kind of gap could be bridged for the sake of conversation. This isn't always because of PC liberalism, sometimes it is simply because an inside perspective, no matter how biased, emotional, or distorted can be insightful and interesting if you have the context to read it properly. This is why videos showing the internal workings of ISIS are interesting- especially when filmed from their perspective. I can say that my reasons are self-serving: a window into Islam is something that I rarely get and the validity of the opinions weren't very relevant to me. Only learning about how Islam sees itself was. Collectively we just got the psychology of @Ntwadumela.

And contrary to your claims, while the "kid gloves" may be present, the vast majority of the user base is anti-Islamic and has operated no holds barred (which doesn't concern me either way, really.) I seriously doubt that any one is easier on Islam simply because the user base has a large subset of Christians or something (i.e. not a "lone minority") and everyone just feels bad for the poor little Muslim(s) that nobody loves. I assume that you just meant to say that Christianity is safer target socially, outside of the Farms, but I find it odd that those same rules, in your mind, would apply here. I certainly haven't witnessed ANYONE'S religion being handled with loving care. The idea sort of makes me chuckle. I think you were just shocked to find anyone at all who even tolerated Muslims, as that behavior is rare on sites so linked to the Chans, and assumed that your safe-space had been compromised.

While it is impossible to say for certain, I would peg most Kiwis as fedora-tippers of a soft or hard variety. Then again, I am as much a fanatic as any fanatic ever was and anything short of "church every Sunday" looks effectively atheistic to me.



What @autisticdragonkin is attempting to say, I believe, is that Islam drifted towards fundamentalism in the latter half of the early modern era, which is true. Islam became more radical (in comparison to the faiths around it) as it lost power and legitimacy. The rise of conservative Islamic schools particularly in Africa helped speed this process along, aided in no small part by the British and French conquests. The conquest of Arabia by the House of Al-Saud was really the death knell for modern Islam, as the kings made sort of a Devil's Deal with an extremist desert prophet in exchange for fanatical church support.

Although I would dispute the idea that Islam was ever really liberal or irreligious by any modern sense of the word or even in a contemporary sense. It just traditionally concerned itself with amassing riches, collecting the jiyza tax, and fueling the expansion of an endless serious of Bedouin dynasties. If Islam then displayed the degree of lust for mass conversion it does now however, I doubt there would be a lot of the world left to dispute ISIS.
I have never said my religion was perfect.
I do believe that the complaints that people have of it are exaggerated although they are unfortunately true.
The dynasties that have captured slaves and forced taxes were indeed barbaric.
How I view and practice Islam was simply how I was taught growing up. Islam hasn't had a squeaky clean history, but what belief has?
 
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Taqqiya? Where do you think I get my perspective from, fucking Islamwatch? I completely believe that you are sincere in every one of your justifications. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Keep pretending the extremists are due to an endless variety of external factors, all completely divorced from Islam, it might fool yourself and the stream of ignorant western tards who know shit about your religion. "Exaggerated" but simultaneously "unfortunately true", fantastic, you manage to encapsulate in one sentence exactly the attitude I'm talking about.
 
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Taqqiya? Where do you think I get my perspective from, fucking Islamwatch? I completely believe that you are sincere in every one of your moronic justifications. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Keep pretending the extremists are due to an endless variety of external factors, all completely divorced from Islam, it might fool yourself and the stream of ignorant western tards who know shit about Islam. "Exaggerated" but simultaneously "unfortunately true"? You manage to encapsulate in one sentence exactly the attitude I'm talking about.
I never said that the extremists didn't do these things because of Islam either. People can commit crimes in the name of something whether it's relevant or not to the original subject at hand. People have committed terrible crimes in the name of justice and honor, and they all believe they are doing right when they are wrong, as explained by the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Do I agree with what they do? No I don't. Calm the fuck down, man. I did say that external factors also played a role, but I didn't exclude religion either.
Taqqiya is the main word people tend to throw around to delegitimize people's legit explanations of Islam that are positive. That's why I included it in my original statement. I wouldn't lie about my religion or anything in general. At least I admitted the flaws of my religion's history.
 
Islam is cool. They have better TV than in the USA.
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I'm afraid most religions have been having way squeekier recent pasts. Something has gone wrong with a lot of muslims in the last decades. It could be global media, it could be Saudi influence, or just having had enough of whatever President wanted their oil. But there is something even more rotten there than catholics' Pope Cuck. We all ignore this at our own risk.
 
I'm afraid most religions have been having way squeekier recent pasts. Something has gone wrong with a lot of muslims in the last decades. It could be global media, it could be Saudi influence, or just having had enough of whatever President wanted their oil. But there is something even more rotten there than catholics' Pope Cuck. We all ignore this at our own risk.

Something did happen to Islam in recent decades. Robert A. Heinlein, of all people, saw it fit to quote the Koran in Starship Troopers, namely the phrase about how to save one person is to save the entirety of humanity, which funnily enough is the quote Liberals and Leftists love using as their shield for Islam today (Despite having never read the full quote, it seems). As far as I know, the Muslim world was never this insane and violent back in the early to mid 20th century. I could be dead fucking wrong, though.
 
Something did happen to Islam in recent decades. Robert A. Heinlein, of all people, saw it fit to quote the Koran in Starship Troopers, namely the phrase about how to save one person is to save the entirety of humanity, which funnily enough is the quote Liberals and Leftists love using as their shield for Islam today (Despite having never read the full quote, it seems). As far as I know, the Muslim world was never this insane and violent back in the early to mid 20th century. I could be dead fucking wrong, though.
Breakdown of the Ottoman Empire, most likely. Look at what happened to Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire, very similar situation imo.
 
saw it fit to quote the Koran in Starship Troopers, namely the phrase about how to save one person is to save the entirety of humanity, which funnily enough is the quote Liberals and Leftists love using as their shield for Islam today

Lol that quotes is from Judaism and is about Jews. The quran itself acknowledges it, too.

It's pretty hilarious that the quran says 'Hey, Jews hold X' ended up being 'The quran declared that X was the case, see how Islam is peaceful'

As far as I know, the Muslim world was never this insane and violent back in the early to mid 20th century. I could be dead fucking wrong, though.

You mostly are, the only reason we didn't hear about most of that stuff is that it was not spreading out of their borders so people didn;t are about it
 
Everyone just converts to Islam, duh.

But in all seriousness it's just another stupid desert religion, *tips fedora* expect difference is at least Christianity and Judaism calmed down over the years. "For the most part."
 
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