Islam

[Cosmos]

@Ntwadumela Thank you for being so civil and willing to address our questions. To be honest, if more Muslims behaved like you when people criticized their religion, I would have a much better view of Islam.

 

[Ntwadumela]

@Ntwadumela Thank you for being so civil and willing to address our questions. To be honest, if more Muslims behaved like you when people criticized their religion, I would have a much better view of Islam.

You're welcome. I tried to explain as much as I could on my religion to those who didn't understand or have the wrong idea on it. Inshallah other people will do the same instead of reacting blindly and violently. I was taught and raised to respect others' beliefs and cultures at a young age too.

 

[Vitriol]

Very informative indeed, and it's great you do bother to research this. However, let me state this: those phrases, especially the first one you posted (9:5) are only applicable in the case of a peace treaty being broken by the non-Muslim faction. In addition, at that time, the prophet PBUH and his followers were highly persecuted by others in the region. There is plenty of documentation online that he was not the one who started it. Read this article and check the citations that go along with it:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_by_the_Meccans
There is a Hadith made by the Prophet PBUH additionally that describes an occurrence where a Jewish person would litter his house for days and once that Jew fell ill, The Prophet PBUH prayed to God for him to get better.
I don't deny you've provided good evidence, but try to see it from both sides as well.

I don't deny that you're correct, but Kuwait is improving gradually in that regard. You have to admit though, it's nowhere near as bad as Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, and the country is a constitutional monarchy and not governed by strict Sharia law. I take it you're Atheist? You won't get killed unless you'd stir something here or did something dire, and even then it wouldn't be for a religious reason. Better yet, you would have nothing to worry about. Obviously there are things like what you have stated that need to be addressed, but overall it's a safe country.

No I give it to you- Kuwait is a far nicer country than Saudi or Pakistan, it just is not secular in the sense understood in the West. I have been and secular, liberal and toletant are not words I would use to describe the culture or laws.

That said the tighter blasphemy laws are something more recent, previously it was just a heavy fine. Kuwait is moving backwards in terms of human rights as islamist factions gain more power in the legislature.

I also think its worth noting that in order to get a public place of worship for a non Islamic faith you require a licence which have proven almost impossible to get in the past 15 years. Only 7 Christian churches have ever succeeded and none recently.

The original question put to you was to the status of non abrahamic religions in Kuwait and the answer is none are officially recognised and therefore permitted to apply for permits for public worship and no such applications have ever been successful. That said, private worship is tolerated.

 

[Ntwadumela]

No I give it to you- Kuwait is a far nicer country than Saudi or Pakistan, it just is not secular in the sense understood in the West. I have been and secular, liberal and toletant are not words I would use to describe the culture or laws.

That said the tighter blasphemy laws are something more recent, previously it was just a heavy fine. Kuwait is moving backwards in terms of human rights as islamist factions gain more power in the legislature.

I also think its worth noring that in order to get a public place of worship for a non Islamic faith you require a liscence which have proven almost impossible to get in the past 15 years. Only 7 Christian churches have ever succeeded and none recently.

The original question put to you was to the status of non abrahamic religions in Kuwait and the answer is none are officially recognised and therefore permitted to apply for permits for public worship and no such applications have ever been successful. That said private worship is tolerated.

I'm aware of that. However, Kuwait is still against extremism and has condemned organizations like ISIS as a result of recent attacks last Ramadan, even making effort in combating it through a counterterrorist group. As for tolerance? That will come when people become more understanding of the world around them, and I believe it will happen. If not now, than some point in history. I believe it's possible, and I will potentially do something about it.

 

[Vitriol]

I'm aware of that. However, Kuwait is still against extremism and has condemned organizations like ISIS as a result of recent attacks last Ramadan, even making effort in combating it through a counterterrorist group. As for tolerance? That will come when people become more understanding of the world around them, and I believe it will happen. If not now, than some point in history. I believe it's possible, and I will potentially do something about it.

I hope that is the case- it is a beautiful country and its people deserve better, but in pakistan, iran, egypt, Afghanistan, tunisia and now turkey when an islamic nation tried to become more tolerant it provoked a conservative fundamentalist backlash that ended up the opposite.

I hope kuwait bucks the trend but i am not at all optimistic- conservative islam is on the rise in your politics and the recent changes to blasphemy laws would seem to confirm to that trend.

 

[Trilby]

You're welcome. I tried to explain as much as I could on my religion to those who didn't understand or have the wrong idea on it. Inshallah other people will do the same instead of reacting blindly and violently. I was taught and raised to respect others' beliefs and cultures at a young age too.

Honestly, this is what everyone should be told.

 

[Doctor Professor Timon]

Very informative indeed, and it's great you do bother to research this. However, let me state this: those phrases, especially the first one you posted (9:5) are only applicable in the case of a peace treaty being broken by the non-Muslim faction. In addition, at that time, the prophet PBUH and his followers were highly persecuted by others in the region. There is plenty of documentation online that he was not the one who started it. Read this article and check the citations that go along with it:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_by_the_Meccans
There is a Hadith made by the Prophet PBUH additionally that describes an occurrence where a Jewish person would litter his house for days and once that Jew fell ill, The Prophet PBUH prayed to God for him to get better.
I don't deny you've provided good evidence, but try to see it from both sides as well.

I don't deny that you're correct, but Kuwait is improving gradually in that regard. You have to admit though, it's nowhere near as bad as Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, and the country is a constitutional monarchy and not governed by strict Sharia law. I take it you're Atheist? You won't get killed unless you'd stir something here or did something dire, and even then it wouldn't be for a religious reason. Better yet, you would have nothing to worry about. Obviously there are things like what you have stated that need to be addressed, but overall it's a safe country.

I'm going to be that guy. In the case of Islam, there's no such thing as a peace treaty, really. If you are a Christian, Jew, Pagan, or any sort of other religion other than Islam, you are not treated fairly in society. You have a tax just for being not-Muslim, if you don't wear a hajib (if a woman) you're very much entitled to be raped in certain sects of Islam - you're worth less than even Muslim women according to the Quran, and, if you spread your faith, you can be set up for the death penalty or rot the rest of your life in prison. Anyone who converts from Islam must be killed.

Moving onto the Hadiths and Suras you are referring to. This is the fate of those who switch from Islam, or should be, according to both the Quran, Sira, and Hadith.

In context, in 4:89 - this is backing up what I've said on other religions.

Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

Quran (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

Moving on from here, here's some fun ones.

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."
(( I call bullsh** on this one. And is a very inclusive statement. Regardless of such. Fighting against Allah and His Apostle includes "Anyone who did not give us our stuff," Mohammed attacked a LOT of people without provocation and enforced his rules on them. That's not a peace treaty. That's subjugation and enslavement. Mind you, Islam came FOUR HUNDRED YEARS after Jesus. When Mohammed claimed that the Christian God, the Jewish God, and the God of Islam are one in the same. I think Jesus had understandable objections to raping, murdering, and enslaving people - and voiced them. ))

Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle." (( Let's back up to that people of the book statement. If they're worshipping the same god, what does it matter? ))

Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

So, there are a lot more verses I can quote here. But I'm going to post something the Christian religion says that separates it completely from Islam and makes it non-compatible in every way and form of it. As @AnOminous said on the first page, a Christian can quote the Old Testament, but the fact is, if they call themselves a Christian, the New Testament is a new covenant. While the laws were not invalidated and things that were wrong in the Old Testament were still wrong, it states that Jesus paid the cost on it. And the death penalty on most of those sins were thrown out the window with his death.

John 16:1-4.
“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them."

Islam happened not only 400 years later, but did exactly what Jesus said they would be doing and claim it is the very same God of Judaism (who Jesus claimed was his dad), where Islam says that Jesus is not Allah's son and Allah has no son.

_________

Holy hell, that became more preachy than I wanted it to, but it's moreso the fact that people try to lump these three religions in the same way when Christianity (and Judaism for that matter) when both religions say, "Redlight," to everything Islam claims. And, well, what each other claims as well.

In short, all of that leads to this. There is a practice in Islam called Taqiyya (Taqqiya, Taqqiyya, or however you want to spell it, for some reason there are multiple spellings). In which a Muslim is permitted to lie about their faith in order to deceive non-believers until such time that they can usurp them. They can quote the nice verses that exist in the Quran, but at the same time, believe the worst verses. Islam claiming that it has the same God as the Christians or Jews is a complete and utter lie and it's used very well until Islam has a stranglehold over any country where they become a majority. Then Islamic law comes into effect and they start oppressing anyone who isn't Muslim. That's just how it's gone throughout history in every Muslim society. There hasn't been a single one where Sharia hasn't, eventually, been instated and used to subjugate the masses.

EDIT:

Adding a bit more here. In Islam, if you have a child, it is born a Muslim (for notes). Or considered one. That, in essence, means that if the child finds another religion or belief later on in life, they are considered an apostate and subject to the above verses. That's what those honor killing things are about.

____

Further Edit - Replying to NTA:

I am quite able to see things from both sides as well, but, at my core, I'm a humanist. I can see the appeal in dominating and subjugating my enemies, but at some core of me, I cannot support, nor just be chill about something that promotes it or even killing others in general. I believe everyone is an individual, can choose to believe what they believe, as long as it doesn't harm and/or affect the freedom of others. I respect opinions other than mine, even if I completely disagree with them. But the fact is, I've bothered reading the Quran, I know a good bit of the Hadith, and I utterly refuse the thought of Islam having any say (political or governmental) in any society whatsoever because of its history, taqqiya, violence, and philosophies. Recruiting for your religion? Absolutely fine - I'm fine with anyone doing that. Having your religion (or anyone else's) dictating or affecting my life in some way? Absolutely not fine. Saudi Arabia is a prime example of the most advanced Muslim Society to date (probably the most famous) and we see how they treat others.

 

[Ruin]

I'm with the above poster. I have no problem with Muslims practicing their faith as individuals but political Islam has no place in Western society. Any sharia shit should be shut down immediately. Muslims have absolutely no right to violate the civil liberties of others because of their religion, race, or gender

 

[Cosmos]

Also, it's hard for me to respect Islam as a religion (not Muslims as people, mind you) when you look at its founder. It seems like for every anecdote of Muhammad being a good, respectful person, there are at least two where he comes off as unpleasant as best and sociopathic and deranged at worst. What's worse is that the hadiths/writings/etc that display him as a bad person were not written by his enemies, but by devoted Muslims who have absolutely no reason to try to tarnish his reputation. There are no writings by Christians that talk about that time Jesus had sex with a nine-year-old girl, or writings by Buddhists that discuss the Buddha's numerous raids on caravans. It just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. I don't think Muhammad was a very good person, to put it lightly. He's certainly not the perfect human meant to be emulated throughout time.

Even the most avowed atheist will usually acknowledge that Jesus was a cool guy with great ideas to get behind, it's just that his message has been perverted by human greed and corruption. Jesus was essentially a hippie, traveling around preaching a message of love and tolerance in a time where violence was the norm. It's really hard to convey just how revolutionary the message of "turn the other cheek" was in a time where "an eye for an eye" ruled. I mean, Jesus got fucking murdered (extremely painfully, I might add; crucifixion is considered to be one of the cruelest and most painful means of execution, and he was beaten and had stakes driven into his hands and feet on top of it) and spent his final breaths begging God to forgive the people who tortured him to death.

No matter how rosy a picture you paint of Muhammad, the fact remains that he was still a warlord. He traded and owned slaves, even if he manumitted some of them. He ordered dozens of military campaigns and raids in his last 10 years, personally taking part in many of them and killing many people. He married a six-year-old girl and consummated the marriage as soon as she got her first period at only 9 years of age. And that's just listing the things that are undisputed, to say nothing of the transgressions mentioned in many hadiths (Yes, The Religion of Peace is far from an unbiased site, but it does cite its sources and all of those sources come from, like I said earlier, devout Muslims who have no reason to lie).

I just can't respect Muhammad, especially when he's compared to some of the founders of other religions.

 

[Doctor Professor Timon]

I'm with the above poster. I have no problem with Muslims practicing their faith as individuals but political Islam has no place in Western society. Any sharia shit should be shut down immediately. Muslims have absolutely no right to violate the civil liberties of others because of their religion, race, or gender

In my first post on this thread, I didn't cite the sources I used and understand why I got the ratings I did. I didn't think it was very much worth citing at that point. As the thread progressed, I felt it was necessary to actually explain the concepts and beliefs expressed in the Quran. Just so people have a general idea of what they're dealing with - hardly any people from western countries are aware of taqiyya, much less any verses or their context in Arabic. And the ones I posted are the more tame ones. In short, I can't tolerate a religion that's intolerant in and of itself. Some Christians might not like gay people, but there's a difference in protesting something you disagree with and hitting it with big frickin' rocks and killing it in the town square (see ridiculous amounts of videos of homosexuals being thrown off buildings, stoned, and/or even tortured to death in primarily Muslim countries).

 

[Trilby]

Also, it's hard for me to respect Islam as a religion (not Muslims as people, mind you) when you look at its founder. It seems like for every anecdote of Muhammad being a good, respectful person, there are at least two where he comes off as unpleasant as best and sociopathic and deranged at worst. What's worse is that the hadiths/writings/etc that display him as a bad person were not written by his enemies, but by devoted Muslims who have absolutely no reason to try to tarnish his reputation. There are no writings by Christians that talk about that time Jesus had sex with a nine-year-old girl, or writings by Buddhists that discuss the Buddha's numerous raids on caravans. It just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. I don't think Muhammad was a very good person, to put it lightly. He's certainly not the perfect human meant to be emulated throughout time.

Even the most avowed atheist will usually acknowledge that Jesus was a cool guy with great ideas to get behind, it's just that his message has been perverted by human greed and corruption. Jesus was essentially a hippie, traveling around preaching a message of love and tolerance in a time where violence was the norm. It's really hard to convey just how revolutionary the message of "turn the other cheek" was in a time where "an eye for an eye" ruled. I mean, Jesus got fucking murdered (extremely painfully, I might add; crucifixion is considered to be one of the cruelest and most painful means of execution, and he was beaten and had stakes driven into his hands and feet on top of it) and spent his final breaths begging God to forgive the people who tortured him to death.

No matter how rosy a picture you paint of Muhammad, the fact remains that he was still a warlord. He traded and owned slaves, even if he manumitted some of them. He ordered dozens of military campaigns and raids in his last 10 years, personally taking part in many of them and killing many people. He married a six-year-old girl and consummated the marriage as soon as she got her first period at only 9 years of age. And that's just listing the things that are undisputed, to say nothing of the transgressions mentioned in many hadiths (Yes, The Religion of Peace is far from an unbiased site, but it does cite its sources and all of those sources come from, like I said earlier, devout Muslims who have no reason to lie).

I just can't respect Muhammad, especially when he's compared to some of the founders of other religions.

Thought of this just now...

 

[Ntwadumela]

I'm going to be that guy. In the case of Islam, there's no such thing as a peace treaty, really. If you are a Christian, Jew, Pagan, or any sort of other religion other than Islam, you are not treated fairly in society. You have a tax just for being not-Muslim, if you don't wear a hajib (if a woman) you're very much entitled to be raped in certain sects of Islam - you're worth less than even Muslim women according to the Quran, and, if you spread your faith, you can be set up for the death penalty or rot the rest of your life in prison. Anyone who converts from Islam must be killed.

Moving onto the Hadiths and Suras you are referring to. This is the fate of those who switch from Islam, or should be, according to both the Quran, Sira, and Hadith.

In context, in 4:89 - this is backing up what I've said on other religions.

Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

Quran (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

Moving on from here, here's some fun ones.

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."
(( I call bullsh** on this one. And is a very inclusive statement. Regardless of such. Fighting against Allah and His Apostle includes "Anyone who did not give us our stuff," Mohammed attacked a LOT of people without provocation and enforced his rules on them. That's not a peace treaty. That's subjugation and enslavement. Mind you, Islam came FOUR HUNDRED YEARS after Jesus. When Mohammed claimed that the Christian God, the Jewish God, and the God of Islam are one in the same. I think Jesus had understandable objections to raping, murdering, and enslaving people - and voiced them. ))

Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle." (( Let's back up to that people of the book statement. If they're worshipping the same god, what does it matter? ))

Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

So, there are a lot more verses I can quote here. But I'm going to post something the Christian religion says that separates it completely from Islam and makes it non-compatible in every way and form of it. As @AnOminous said on the first page, a Christian can quote the Old Testament, but the fact is, if they call themselves a Christian, the New Testament is a new covenant. While the laws were not invalidated and things that were wrong in the Old Testament were still wrong, it states that Jesus paid the cost on it. And the death penalty on most of those sins were thrown out the window with his death.

John 16:1-4.
“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them."

Islam happened not only 400 years later, but did exactly what Jesus said they would be doing and claim it is the very same God of Judaism (who Jesus claimed was his dad), where Islam says that Jesus is not Allah's son and Allah has no son.

_________

Holy hell, that became more preachy than I wanted it to, but it's moreso the fact that people try to lump these three religions in the same way when Christianity (and Judaism for that matter) when both religions say, "Redlight," to everything Islam claims. And, well, what each other claims as well.

In short, all of that leads to this. There is a practice in Islam called Taqiyya (Taqqiya, Taqqiyya, or however you want to spell it, for some reason there are multiple spellings). In which a Muslim is permitted to lie about their faith in order to deceive non-believers until such time that they can usurp them. They can quote the nice verses that exist in the Quran, but at the same time, believe the worst verses. Islam claiming that it has the same God as the Christians or Jews is a complete and utter lie and it's used very well until Islam has a stranglehold over any country where they become a majority. Then Islamic law comes into effect and they start oppressing anyone who isn't Muslim. That's just how it's gone throughout history in every Muslim society. There hasn't been a single one where Sharia hasn't, eventually, been instated and used to subjugate the masses.

EDIT:

Adding a bit more here. In Islam, if you have a child, it is born a Muslim (for notes). Or considered one. That, in essence, means that if the child finds another religion or belief later on in life, they are considered an apostate and subject to the above verses. That's what those honor killing things are about.

____

Further Edit - Replying to NTA:

I am quite able to see things from both sides as well, but, at my core, I'm a humanist. I can see the appeal in dominating and subjugating my enemies, but at some core of me, I cannot support, nor just be chill about something that promotes it or even killing others in general. I believe everyone is an individual, can choose to believe what they believe, as long as it doesn't harm and/or affect the freedom of others. I respect opinions other than mine, even if I completely disagree with them. But the fact is, I've bothered reading the Quran, I know a good bit of the Hadith, and I utterly refuse the thought of Islam having any say (political or governmental) in any society whatsoever because of its history, taqqiya, violence, and philosophies. Recruiting for your religion? Absolutely fine - I'm fine with anyone doing that. Having your religion (or anyone else's) dictating or affecting my life in some way? Absolutely not fine. Saudi Arabia is a prime example of the most advanced Muslim Society to date (probably the most famous) and we see how they treat others.

Yes, I've heard of Taqqiya. No, I'm not trying to force it at all. There were empires and dynasties such as the Ottoman Empire and the Ummayad dynasty which encouraged good treatment of Christians and Jews. Obviously religion should not have any part in politics at all, and it's not the way to rule a country. As for your comment on people not being treated fairly in society if they're non-Muslim? Turkey and Egypt are major examples of countries with other religious groups whose people get along just fine with each other, so much so that you'll even see mosques and churches next to one another. On to the subject of Apostasy. That is a very controversial matter, to the point where many scholars and Islamic jurists have disagreeing opinions, and the phrases that go along with it apply in situations that involve those same people attacking the Muslims and instigating the situation. In addition, Jesus was very significant in Islam and is considered to be one of the most important prophets. My country Kuwait is an example of a Muslim majority country that is not governed by strict Sharia law, and it's doing just fine regardless. We here believe extremism is not the way to go. At all. Raping and murdering people is forbidden in Islam, and I have absolutely NO idea where you got that from. Suicide is also considered unlawful despite the suicide bombers making an appearance nowadays. In fact, human life, whether Muslim or not, is valued highly, proven by this verse:
“…if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.”
(5:32)
There are also these:
"Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression."
(5:2)
"And do not let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing justly. Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness"
(5:3)
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.”
(2:256)
"God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed."
(16:90)
This isn't even including when Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years and treated non-Muslims justly as well. Lastly, there are many women in my country who both wear Hijab/Niqab and those who don't, and rape is almost unheard of. I understand that there are people who will kill because someone believes in something different, but I guarantee I'm not one of them.

Also, it's hard for me to respect Islam as a religion (not Muslims as people, mind you) when you look at its founder. It seems like for every anecdote of Muhammad being a good, respectful person, there are at least two where he comes off as unpleasant as best and sociopathic and deranged at worst. What's worse is that the hadiths/writings/etc that display him as a bad person were not written by his enemies, but by devoted Muslims who have absolutely no reason to try to tarnish his reputation. There are no writings by Christians that talk about that time Jesus had sex with a nine-year-old girl, or writings by Buddhists that discuss the Buddha's numerous raids on caravans. It just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. I don't think Muhammad was a very good person, to put it lightly. He's certainly not the perfect human meant to be emulated throughout time.

Even the most avowed atheist will usually acknowledge that Jesus was a cool guy with great ideas to get behind, it's just that his message has been perverted by human greed and corruption. Jesus was essentially a hippie, traveling around preaching a message of love and tolerance in a time where violence was the norm. It's really hard to convey just how revolutionary the message of "turn the other cheek" was in a time where "an eye for an eye" ruled. I mean, Jesus got fucking murdered (extremely painfully, I might add; crucifixion is considered to be one of the cruelest and most painful means of execution, and he was beaten and had stakes driven into his hands and feet on top of it) and spent his final breaths begging God to forgive the people who tortured him to death.

No matter how rosy a picture you paint of Muhammad, the fact remains that he was still a warlord. He traded and owned slaves, even if he manumitted some of them. He ordered dozens of military campaigns and raids in his last 10 years, personally taking part in many of them and killing many people. He married a six-year-old girl and consummated the marriage as soon as she got her first period at only 9 years of age. And that's just listing the things that are undisputed, to say nothing of the transgressions mentioned in many hadiths (Yes, The Religion of Peace is far from an unbiased site, but it does cite its sources and all of those sources come from, like I said earlier, devout Muslims who have no reason to lie).

I just can't respect Muhammad, especially when he's compared to some of the founders of other religions.

That's alright if you feel that way, but my Prophet was not Hitler. Read this:http://www.messengerofgod.info/prophet-muhammad-characteristics.htm
I have already included information about the Prophet PBUH's situation with Aisha and the situation of being persecuted by other people in the region in previous posts. If you haven't seen them, check them out. However, I understand how you feel.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

I think that Muhammad was the greatest founder of a religion as he had a life affirming message unlike Siddhartha or contemporary depiction of Jesus

 

[Gym Leader Elesa]

I think that Muhammad was the greatest founder of a religion as he had a life affirming message unlike Siddhartha or contemporary depiction of Jesus

You mentioned once that the mysticism and heterodoxy of the Shi'a troubled you. Is it the worldliness of Sunni Islam that appeals to you?

 

[Ntwadumela]

You mentioned once that the mysticism and heterodoxy of the Shi'a troubled you. Is it the worldliness of Sunni Islam that appeals to you?

I know that your post wasn't directed to me, but I have no problems with Shia at all, and have a lot of friends who are Shia in addition to Sunni, even those with beliefs that aren't Islam.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

You mentioned once that the mysticism and heterodoxy of the Shi'a troubled you. Is it the worldliness of Sunni Islam that appeals to you?

That is the case. In particular I think it is superior to most Christianity due to its worldliness but at the same time it is also grounded in evolutionary truth (or as might be better to say is metaphorically true) and not baseless like modern atheism is so it gives a resistance to social justice. There are some things I dislike but most of it is just about it being so old rather than anything about its fundamentals. I think Mormonism may be able to compete

 

[Gym Leader Elesa]

I feel the need to contribute more thoughtful discussion in light of the recent (and very welcome) appearance of ideological opposition defending Islam. Also I'm not drinking tonight, which may help...

I have a complicated relationship with the"religion of peace" as I feel had it kept up with the birth and spread of certain global trends, we would hardly see it differently than Christianity or Judaism. Many in this thread stated prior that they feel it is the actions of the believers that are important to them rather than the technical beliefs of the religion itself, and if we accept that, then Islam stands a very real chance of being just as valuable to the modern world as any other global force. It could even one day, Gods willing, become a force for good- and for the sake of the Middle East, which I know will never abandon their faith (nor would I want them to) this is the best outcome. After all, if those countries come to grips with the modern world and begin to coexist peacefully with the rest of us who cares if their reason is "Muhammed", "Jesus", "Humanism", or the 1980's Transformers cartoon. The desired outcome is achieved.

That said, I am a person who specialized in Religious Studies (well, that and Linguistics) and I cannot help but be engrossed by the actual professed beliefs of Islam. I try my hardest to judge a faith by what it actually teaches than how its adherents behave. This is not a practical position from a day-to-day standpoint, nor a practical one from the standpoint of governance, but I am not a pragmatic person or a government official. I am a mystic and romantic at heart, I guess.

From that standpoint I find much to admire and much to despise. I see systems of social welfare and certain codes of conduct that the west is in some ways, far behind Islam on. That is not a popular opinion, but there it is. Islam has an excellent grasp I think on the essence of what it means to be a community, and any religion that bans usury as well as making charity compulsory has a leg up in my book. I also note that many of the Islamic conquerors and administrators of the past followed codes of conduct far ahead of their time, and if the spirit of these men was adopted rather than the letter of their medieval beliefs, we might see the greatest of their modern counterparts no different than Saladin's western counterparts saw him.

On the other hand, Islam's strict legalism, opposition to reform, and natural desire for dominance (especially through war) make it difficult it for it to adapt to the modern world and achieve its true potential. I have higher hopes for the Shi'a in this regard, as they are as one scholar said "the religion of opposition and defiance" and if nothing else dedicated to pissing off the Sunnis. In truth, I have a fascination with their complex and occasionally esoteric philosophy. I disagree with @autisticdragonkin about them as I think their natural heterodoxy makes them that much more flexible. The Nizaris prove that potential if nothing else. You probably haven't heard of them, because many spiritual communities couldn't hold a candle to their level of civility or commitment to the common welfare. Or, importantly and significantly, tolerance. Long story short, good news doesn't get coverage and so Islam seems a lot worse than it is, especially when "Muslims" and the war torn Middle East/Africa are conflated. And while they are statistically a minority there are still millions of them. Plus, they are like a spiritual monarchy, which is cool.

I guess in short:

Pros: Community-minded, generous, highly concerned with justice, solid foundation of values- regardless of the character of the Prophet.

Cons: Prone to "rules-lawyering" and fundamentalism, the high ground they once stood on has blinded them to the progress of the rest of the world, weird gender divisions for things that confuse even me, unhealthy fixation on theological purity and ideological unity.

I know that your post wasn't directed to me, but I have no problems with Shia at all, and have a lot of friends who are Shia in addition to Sunni, even those with beliefs that aren't Islam.

Dude, with all due respect, we know. As far as I can tell, everyone here thinks you are a cool guy. I hope anyone hasn't attacked you personally. I fully believe that you are a cool person and not an asshole. I think (and hope) everyone else does, too. You got like twice the positive ratings that I did in like 1/5th the time here, for example. You are a valued member of this community, at least to me and from what I saw @Cosmos (whose opinion counts for way more). I like diversity of perspectives. Some people here don't like Islam (and others, hate it) but don't let that get you down. Just live your life justly and try to prove them wrong by doing so. That is very nice to hear you have Shi'a friends, though. I worry for those guys. Some of my closest friends from childhood are Muslim but they are all Sunnis so I envy someone with the chance to connect with that minority, at least on an academic level. I have been and lived almost everywhere in the world but the Middle East.

That is the case. In particular I think it is superior to most Christianity due to its worldliness but at the same time it is also grounded in evolutionary truth (or as might be better to say is metaphorically true) and not baseless like modern atheism is so it gives a resistance to social justice. There are some things I dislike but most of it is just about it being so old rather than anything about its fundamentals. I think Mormonism may be able to compete

I never imagined that someone who is so fundamentally different from me on so many levels would be my autistic hero. When Mormonism and Islam are someone's two favorite religions, as least you know they think for themselves.

 

[Cosmos]

Dude, with all due respect, we know. As far as I can tell, everyone here thinks you are a cool guy. I hope anyone hasn't attacked you personally. I fully believe that you are a cool person and not an asshole. I think (and hope) everyone else does, too. You got like twice the positive ratings that I did in like 1/5th the time here, for example. You are a valued member of this community, at least to me and from what I saw @Cosmos (whose opinion counts for way more). I like diversity of perspectives. Some people here don't like Islam (and others, hate it) but don't let that get you down. Just live your life justly and try to prove them wrong by doing so. That is very nice to hear you have Shi'a friends, though. I worry for those guys. Some of my closest friends from childhood are Muslim but they are all Sunnis so I envy someone with the chance to connect with that minority, at least on an academic level. I have been and lived almost everywhere in the world but the Middle East.

I think the solution here is obvious.

We need to attract more Muslims to lolcow-watching. At least that way the angry ones could work out their anger by autistic shitposting instead of through violence (after all, is better than murdering people).

Nah, but really, imo what makes @Ntwadumela so cool (aside from having the good taste to join the Farms) is that he's able to separate criticism of Islam from criticism of him as a person, which is something many Muslims struggle with because Islam is such a huge part of their identity. Well, actually, most people (regardless of religion, race, gender, etc) have a difficult time separating criticism of an ideology/identity they adhere to from criticism of themselves. It's something we all need to work on.

 

[Joan Nyan]

“…if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.”
(5:32)

You left out part of that quote. The full thing goes

"We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person - unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity. "

The Children of Israel being the Jews, and the quote is a direct reference to a passage from the Talmund

"For this reason was man created alone, to teach thee that whosoever destroys a single soul of Israel, scripture imputes [guilt] to him as though he had destroyed a complete world; and whosoever preserves a single soul of Israel, scripture ascribes [merit] to him as though he had preserved a complete world."

Therefore, the passage you quoted is merely stating that this is what was told to Jews in the past, not a commandment to Muslims. We can look at the following passages to see what is commanded for Muslims.

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
(5:33-34)

The big question here is "What is mischief?"

"Then after them We sent Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his chiefs, but they wrongfully rejected them: So see what was the end of those who made mischief."
(7:103)

In other words, rejecting the signs of Allah is making mischief. I believe that (5:32-34) can best be paraphrased as

"In the past, Jews were told not to commit murder. However, now, anyone who rejects Allah is to be executed unless they repent."

See how context really matters?

 

[Ntwadumela]

You left out part of that quote. The full thing goes

"We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person - unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity. "

The Children of Israel being the Jews, and the quote is a direct reference to a passage from the Talmund

"For this reason was man created alone, to teach thee that whosoever destroys a single soul of Israel, scripture imputes [guilt] to him as though he had destroyed a complete world; and whosoever preserves a single soul of Israel, scripture ascribes [merit] to him as though he had preserved a complete world."

Therefore, the passage you quoted is merely stating that this is what was told to Jews in the past, not a commandment to Muslims. We can look at the following passages to see what is commanded for Muslims.

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
(5:33-34)

The big question here is "What is mischief?"

"Then after them We sent Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his chiefs, but they wrongfully rejected them: So see what was the end of those who made mischief."
(7:103)

In other words, rejecting the signs of Allah is making mischief. I believe that (5:32-34) can best be paraphrased as

"In the past, Jews were told not to commit murder. However, now, anyone who rejects Allah is to be executed unless they repent."

See how context really matters?

Yes, context does matter, but it also states my point that the majority of verses that encourage the killing of non-Muslims are only in self-defense and only in cases when the belligerent had instigated the situation. I also have stated before that there are countries who do not oppress those with beliefs which are different than Islam AND are Muslim majority as well.