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Why do people claim Hitler dindu nuffin wrong when he failed to do the Holocaust he totally should have done but which didn't actually happen?
 
Its what happens when you just read anglosphere histories. The Suvorov Thesis ought to be more discussed, but for obvious reasons its not.

The consensus on the issue as far as I understand it is that the expulsions and the war with Stalin where the good parts. Intentional extermination did not happen, as far as the most hardline revisionists are concerned, rather people died due to supply shortages. Honestly I think people pretend not to understand this.

Start here if interested (Unz is a good faith writer, the sort who will readily give sources if asked, just email him).
www.unz.com

American Pravda: When Stalin Almost Conquered Europe

[pdf=https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Ron_Unz_American_Pravda_When_Stalin_Almost_Conquered_Europe.pdf]For many years I maintained far too many magazine subscriptions, more periodicals than I could possibly read or even skim, so most weeks they went straight into storage, with...
www.unz.com
www.unz.com

American Pravda: Holocaust Denial

Reason Magazine and Holocaust Denial [pdf=https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Ron_Unz_American_Pravda_Holocaust_Denial.pdf]A few years ago I somehow heard about a ferocious online dispute involving a left-leaning journalist named Mark Ames and the editors of Reason magazine, the...
www.unz.com
 
My ex, who frequently enjoyed spewing his drunk bullshit all over every ED platform, wanted to suck your dick so bad.
It unnerved me a lot.
 
Emperor Julian said:
Yeah this always bothered me, they hate jews and they deserve to die but Hitler totally didnt do it.
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Why do Nazis even LIKE Hitler? Killing the Jews is the most ultimate thing he could have done, he totally failed at it, though, the Holocaust is a hoax. Why is Hitler even good? He utterly failed, right? He didn't even kill the Jews!
 
Emperor Julian said:
Yeah this always bothered me, they hate jews and they deserve to die but Hitler totally didnt do it.
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Odd as it seems, Holocaust denial is the quickest way to radicalize somebody into supporting a Holocaust.

Think about it. If you're convinced of Holocaust denial, then that means that the Jew made up a massive slander against a good people, used it to destroy their way of life, and now use it as a cudgel with which to oppress you while getting fat off of undeserved reparations. They would deserve for their lies to be made into truth.

I'm not sure if most anti-Semites already have a personal hatred before being sold on the political narratives, or if it's the other way around, but I suspect that most modern anti-Semites are the latter while most anti-Semites in the past were the former. That is, people don't go around thinking "grr I hate those fucking yids so much" (it's not really passed on from generation to generation anymore, anti-anti-Semitism is practically brainwashed into people, and you can easily spend your whole life without ever having any reason to think about Jews), but instead they get tied into the political aspect of Alt-Right anti-Semitism and then that builds a hatred in them.

(In my case, I broadly agree with much of the Alt-Right's stance on Jews, but agree with Holocaust orthodoxy.)

I feel it's worth mentioning that I've never seen any of this supposed Leftist anti-Semitism people here claim is so bad nowadays. The only real faction you see of that is the Muslims, but they're basically Rightists who are in a strategic alliance with the Left against the other Rightists.
 
Ughubughughughughughghlug said:
Think about it. If you're convinced of Holocaust denial, then that means that the Jew made up a massive slander against a good people, used it to destroy their way of life, and now use it as a cudgel with which to oppress you while getting fat off of undeserved reparations. They would deserve for their lies to be made into truth.
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But there they are, claiming a dude like Hitler is a hero when he was a complete failure at doing the main thing they're claiming he was a hero for. This is why Nazis look like utter mongos wherever they are. They claim some shit never happened that they're openly champing at the bit to do, while at the same time claiming the one dude who is the champion of their bullshit completely failed to do what they want.

They're even worse than commies.
 
AnOminous said:
But there they are, claiming a dude like Hitler is a hero when he was a complete failure at doing the main thing they're claiming he was a hero for. This is why Nazis look like utter mongos wherever they are. They claim some shit never happened that they're openly champing at the bit to do, while at the same time claiming the one dude who is the champion of their bullshit completely failed to do what they want.

They're even worse than commies.
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Yeah, but the way they've rewritten the history for themselves, Hitler was a good boi who wanted to just keep the Jews (whose full, evil nature he maybe even underestimated) in summer camps while he saved Europe from Communists. To them, he's not the guy who screwed Germany/fascism by losing a war through his own stupidity, but was a martyr who was just too moral and too outgunned to defend himself. Quite similar to a lot of Neo-Confederates, to be honest.

Of course, even if a person accepts Holocaust denial, an objective point of view would still show Hitler as a buffoon, and if you believe Holocaust orthodoxy, then he's even worse. I agree that he was the worst thing that could have possibly happened for fascism and his country in particular. Fascism was the next big thing in pretty much every country (had potential to compete with socialism seriously), but after being destroyed spectacularly - and losing most all of its sympathy through Nuremberg - it was killed. I think the West might have gone fascist if not for his belligerence.
 
Ughubughughughughughghlug said:
Of course, even if a person accepts Holocaust denial, an objective point of view would still show Hitler as a buffoon, and if you believe Holocaust orthodoxy, then he's even worse. I agree that he was the worst thing that could have possibly happened for fascism and his country in particular. Fascism was the next big thing in pretty much every country (had potential to compete with socialism seriously), but after being destroyed spectacularly - and losing most all of its sympathy through Nuremberg - it was killed. I think the West might have gone fascist if not for his belligerence.
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And this is why I completely don't get any admiration Nazis/fascists of the current era have for this dude. You couldn't have a worse figurehead if you actually wanted to promote this kind of ideology. Speaking as a near commie, if I were going to pick a figurehead for fascism specifically because I wanted it to fail, I'd actually pick Hitler. Which come to think of it, may be what actually happened.
 
AnOminous said:
And this is why I completely don't get any admiration Nazis/fascists of the current era have for this dude. You couldn't have a worse figurehead if you actually wanted to promote this kind of ideology. Speaking as a near commie, if I were going to pick a figurehead for fascism specifically because I wanted it to fail, I'd actually pick Hitler. Which come to think of it, may be what actually happened.
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One problem is that it's hard to sell the public on more obscure figures. The great enemy of your nation, while a strange choice for hero, is at least somebody that people can rally around, and in a way makes sense since mass movements often involve a sort of rebellion against authority that attracts people to whatever is considered "bad," like Gnostics of old being attracted to Satan. Picking some random yahoo from a nowhere shithole doesn't work as well since nobody recognizes the name to start with or feels emotional investment in the story.

The closest thing to a good fascist hero is Augusto Pinochet, since you can spin him as being a Chilean Cincinnatus who saved his country from Communists (with backing from America, Fuck Yeah) and then brought in an age of prosperity and safety for his people, killing a minimum of people, before stepping aside to restore democracy.

That's not really an accurate portrayal of it, but it's a better sell than trying to spend the guy who wanted to mass-murder whites into the savior of the white race.

Oh, and people also make do with whatever they have. I think that's why Southern nationalists and American secessionists/states rights people put so much investment into Neo-Confederate stuff. Deep down inside they know its bullshit, but that's the only example of a secessionist state fighting the Federal government that they have, so they have to defend that narrative to the death. Neo-Nazis have a similar relationship to Germany.
 
Ughubughughughughughghlug said:
The closest thing to a good fascist hero is Augusto Pinochet, since you can spin him as being a Chilean Cincinnatus who saved his country from Communists (with backing from America, Fuck Yeah) and then brought in an age of prosperity and safety for his people, killing a minimum of people, before stepping aside to restore democracy.
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I would actually pick Franco. I mean, if I actually wanted fascism to succeed, which I don't. Seriously, whatever you may think of fascism, he actually won, he managed to come out on the good end of WW II despite being a fascist, and then went on to decades of success.

Why isn't he the huge fascist hero? What did he do wrong?

Seriously, if you wanted to pimp fascism as a way that your country could succeed, literally for generations, who would be a better example?
 
AnOminous said:
I would actually pick Franco. I mean, if I actually wanted fascism to succeed, which I don't. Seriously, whatever you may think of fascism, he actually won, he managed to come out on the good end of WW II despite being a fascist, and then went on to decades of success.

Why isn't he the huge fascist hero? What did he do wrong?

Seriously, if you wanted to pimp fascism as a way that your country could succeed, literally for generations, who would be a better example?
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I used to like Franco but, having read a lot more about him, it was a fucking disaster. He probably did worse than the Republic would have. The economy basically failed to recover at all for like fifteen years, then only grew tepidly, and only grew rapidly once he shit-canned the fascists and let the libertarians run the economy. Even then, he relied heavily on exogenous factors for financing the industrial revival, so it wouldn't have even worked if he hadn't gotten at least a little lucky. All of this was basically just to get back to convergence with Western Europe, so if they hadn't had the War and if the Republic had remained democratic, they wouldn't have been any worse off than France or Italy.

Not that it would necessarily matter... the public believes all kinds of stupid shit. You can at least package Franco as "we were poor but we weren't Communist."

But he was more of a success for himself than the country. The best thing that can be said about him is that he was an extremely savvy diplomat who played the WAllies and Germany like fiddles during WW2.
 
Ughubughughughughughghlug said:
I used to like Franco but, having read a lot more about him, it was a fucking disaster. He probably did worse than the Republic would have. The economy basically failed to recover at all for like fifteen years, then only grew tepidly, and only grew rapidly once he shit-canned the fascists and let the libertarians run the economy.
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Hate to break it to you and you probably figured this out yourself anyway but fascism kind of sucks. It doesn't do what it says, and as terrible as it may be, the current neoliberal bullshit is at least mildly better.

Actually nearly every social/economic policy we currently use is absolute crap. And there isn't even a replacement.
 
AnOminous said:
Hate to break it to you and you probably figured this out yourself anyway but fascism kind of sucks. It doesn't do what it says, and as terrible as it may be, the current neoliberal bullshit is at least mildly better.

Actually nearly every social/economic policy we currently use is absolute crap. And there isn't even a replacement.
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I don't consider myself a fascist, as such, but more of a sympathizer. I suppose I'm probably a paleoconservative or something like that. Mostly I like the fascists because they violently suppressed the Left in order to maintain a more traditionalist society. I'm willing to compromise on some matters of policy in order to prevent a worse scenario.

The ideal world, to me, more or less looks like a world full of Switzerlands and Singapores, except the Switzerlands would take Singapore's approach to suppressing ideologies opposed to the governing one. I like Hoppe's writings, but he makes a ton of mistakes (assuming that his idea of contract-based anarcho-capitalism wouldn't just be a power vacuum for a new state to emerge, assuming that heads of state are rational economic actors, etc.) to the point where he's good at criticizing stuff but bad at proposing solutions.
 
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