Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

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Do you believe that this series will turn to shit?


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Not only does Smiling Friends portrays a more idolized version of the devil, it proves that a simple comedy show with a basic premise can last for several seasons.:semperfidelis:

It also has a mass murderer whose motivations actually has logic behind them.
On an actual serious note, while thinking about how stupid it is that only Sera and the exorcists knew about the exterminations, it's implied that Lucifer hasn't spoke to Adam since Eden, which might've been why he had Charlie talk to him in Overture. If that's the case, then that means it's Sera who Lucifer talks to when contacting Heaven, so she shouldn't be chastising Adam over Lucifer's apparent involvement, when according to Charlie, he's the one who approved her of the exterminations in the first place, and ultimately, Charlie's meeting with the angels was from her allowance.
 
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Hazbinbros...
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The disturbing image aside. Pentulois is one the few characters I like but feel is wasted potential. Ok so he's the only witness to Jack the ripper and is in hell...for not doing or saying anything? You know this really proves my point this show could benefit of this was the version of hell where they say atheists end up because they don't believe in religion or souls even existing at all.


Imagine if what Pentulois went through and witnessed was not only so horrible to see but because nobody belived him or did anything even when he tried to testify as a witness that it drove him to lose all faith in God even existing.


Losing your faith when you see horrible people getting away with horrible things is a stock character trait but it's a relatable one at least that a good chunk of the human condition has gone through at one time or another.



Also, points for him and cherry having one of the few straight kisses in Vivian's work. She prioritizes her gay fujo ones so much I cant even remember the last time the other straight couple in helluva boss (moxie and millie) kissed.
 
Why do you get mad just because I ask you for information? Also I didn't even want to discuss this shit in the first place, but since you kept sperging out I wanted to atleast know why.

On the other hand you couldn't even tell a different voice actor apart from Gryphon's wife so it doesn't seems like you are particularly well informed about this topic anyways.
He hit on both of them actually.

Seriously tell me you don't find this creepy as fuck.
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The disturbing image aside. Pentulois is one the few characters I like but feel is wasted potential. Ok so he's the only witness to Jack the ripper and is in hell...for not doing or saying anything? You know this really proves my point this show could benefit of this was the version of hell where they say atheists end up because they don't believe in religion or souls even existing at all.


Imagine if what Pentulois went through and witnessed was not only so horrible to see but because nobody belived him or did anything even when he tried to testify as a witness that it drove him to lose all faith in God even existing.


Losing your faith when you see horrible people getting away with horrible things is a stock character trait but it's a relatable one at least that a good chunk of the human condition has gone through at one time or another.
Because this show doesn't follow any sort of religious teaching for morality, but will use Abrahamic religion for a backdrop. We still have very little of an idea what sends a person to Heaven or Hell, or even how fair the justice system is. Anything involving murder is a guaranteed ticket to Hell, but what about other sins? Would being a perpetual liar send you to Hell? If your actions in some way harms others, does that send you, or is harming yourself also included? What about suicide? Or sins committed when you're not in the right mind?
 
it's not fujo wangst, it doesn't exist. Or it does exist for a little while, but then disappears off the face of the Earth.
"Where now is the man and his wife?
They have passed like rain on the mountain,
Like a wind in the meadow,
The days have gone down in Hell behind the hills into shadow"
 
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Because this show doesn't follow any sort of religious teaching for morality, but will use Abrahamic religion for a backdrop. We still have very little of an idea what sends a person to Heaven or Hell, or even how fair the justice system is. Anything involving murder is a guaranteed ticket to Hell, but what about other sins? Would being a perpetual liar send you to Hell? If your actions in some way harms others, does that send you, or is harming yourself also included? What about suicide? Or sins committed when you're not in the right mind?
I think there is so much potential being wasted,theology-wise. But whatever, lgbtqt2s+ and BUY OUR MERCH
 
Because this show doesn't follow any sort of religious teaching for morality, but will use Abrahamic religion for a backdrop. We still have very little of an idea what sends a person to Heaven or Hell, or even how fair the justice system is. Anything involving murder is a guaranteed ticket to Hell, but what about other sins? Would being a perpetual liar send you to Hell? If your actions in some way harms others, does that send you, or is harming yourself also included? What about suicide? Or sins committed when you're not in the right mind?
The closest we kinda get is emberlynn pinkle. It's not clear what she did that got her sent there but it's either the fact that she was a shameless gooner, (lust) a lazy weeaboo who was still at home with her parents, (sloth and possibly idolatry since she had a collection of weeb junk and sex toys) her fetish for demons wanting blitz to do her when she found out he is one, (idolatry amd lust again) or the fact she was willing to let blitz kill her thinking it would let her be with him. (Possibly suicide or at least she was rejecting life by willingly let someone kill her)

She and pentuloius have created a theory that those in hell want to be there or belive they deserve to be there but again Vivian needs to focus more on making these things clearer than being just viewer speculation and get her mind off the relationship drama with birdman and imp boy.
 
The disturbing image aside. Pentulois is one the few characters I like but feel is wasted potential. Ok so he's the only witness to Jack the ripper and is in hell...for not doing or saying anything? You know this really proves my point this show could benefit of this was the version of hell where they say atheists end up because they don't believe in religion or souls even existing at all.
Also, if that were the case, you could do something interesting with characters who were damned, but also from some kind of religious background.

For example in The Great Divorce, one of the ghosts in hell is an apostate bishop who basically came to believe that Christianity wasn't literal, and was so bent on keeping that belief, even when he was standing in the forecourt of Heaven, that he eventually chooses to return to hell.
‘Well, it’s obvious by now, isn’t it, that you weren’t quite right. Why, my dear boy, you were coming to believe in a literal Heaven and Hell!’​

‘But wasn’t I right?’​
‘Oh, in a spiritual sense, to be sure. I still believe in them in that way. I am still, my dear boy, looking for the Kingdom. But nothing superstitious or mythological…’​
‘Excuse me. Where do you imagine you’ve been?’​
‘Ah, I see. You mean that the grey town with its continual hope of morning (we must all live by hope, must we not?), with its field for indefinite progress, is, in a sense, Heaven, if only we have eyes to see it? That is a beautiful idea.’​
‘I didn’t mean that at all. Is it possible you don’t know where you’ve been?’​
‘Now that you mention it, I don’t think we ever do give it a name. What do you call it?’​
‘We call it Hell.’​
[...]​
‘We know nothing of religion here: we think only of Christ. We know nothing of speculation. Come and see. I will bring you to Eternal Fact, the Father of all other fact-hood."​
‘I should object very strongly to describing God as a “fact”. The Supreme Value would surely be a less inadequate description. It is hardly…’​
‘Do you not even believe that He exists?’​
‘Exists? What does Existence mean? You will keep on implying some sort of static, ready-made reality which is, so to speak, “there”, and to which our minds have simply to conform. These great mysteries cannot be approached in that way. If there​
were such a thing (there is no need to interrupt, my dear boy) quite frankly, I should not be interested in it. It would be of no religious significance.​

Or what if you had a character like Frollo from The Hunchback of Notre Dame who is a devout man (and an Archdeacon instead of a Judge in the book) , though clearly morally corrupt, how would a character like that handle it? Would they even seek some path to heaven, or would they be embittered that they wound up in hell despite how they viewed themself as righteous, presumably the best case for that character would be to realize how far they'd fallen and pursue penance. Basically a character with the attitude of the Pharisee from Christ's parable of The Pharisee and the Tax Collector.

"Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—swindlers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and pay tithes of all that I acquire.'​
But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified."​

Even if the show wants to do some kind of religious pluralism, like maybe anyone who is devout to their God/gods/the Tao/etc. and acts like a half decent person, they go to heaven, how would she account for people who were devout to religions that are more wicked? Like what about an Aztec pagan who was all for cutting out people's hearts? Or unironic theistic satanists?

Though maybe for those types, it'll be what Belloc said in one of his poems,
"He served his God so faithfully and well,​
That now he sees him face to face, in hell."​
For a moment there was silence under the cedar trees and then—pad, pad, pad—it
was broken. Two velvet-footed lions came bouncing into the open space, their eyes
fixed upon each other, and started playing some solemn romp. Their manes looked as
if they had been just dipped in the river whose noise I could hear close at hand, though
the tree hid it.

Not greatly liking my company, I moved away to find that river, and
after passing some thick flowering bushes, I succeeded. The bushes came almost down
to the brink. It was as smooth as the Thames but flowed swiftly like a mountain
stream: pale green where trees overhung it but so clear that I could count the pebbles
at the bottom. Close beside me I saw another of the Bright People in conversation
with a ghost. It was that fat ghost with the cultured voice who had addressed me in the
bus, and it seemed to be wearing gaiters.

‘My dear boy, I’m delighted to see you,’ it was saying to the Spirit, who was
naked and almost blindingly white. ‘I was talking to your poor father the other day
and wondering where you were.’

‘You didn’t bring him?’ said the other.

‘Well, no. He lives a long way from the bus, and, to be quite frank, he’s been getting a little eccentric lately. A little difficult. Losing his grip. He never was prepared to make any great efforts, you know. If you remember, he used to go to sleep when you and I got talking seriously! Ah, Dick, I shall never forget some of our talks. I expect you’ve changed your views a bit since then. You became rather narrowminded towards the end of your life: but no doubt you’ve broadened out again.’

‘How do you mean?’

‘Well, it’s obvious by now, isn’t it, that you weren’t quite right. Why, my dear boy, you were coming to believe in a literal Heaven and Hell!’

‘But wasn’t I right?’

‘Oh, in a spiritual sense, to be sure. I still believe in them in that way. I am still,
my dear boy, looking for the Kingdom. But nothing superstitious or mythological…’

‘Excuse me. Where do you imagine you’ve been?’

‘Ah, I see. You mean that the grey town with its continual hope of morning (we must all live by hope, must we not?), with its field for indefinite progress, is, in a sense, Heaven, if only we have eyes to see it? That is a beautiful idea.’

‘I didn’t mean that at all. Is it possible you don’t know where you’ve been?’

‘Now that you mention it, I don’t think we ever do give it a name. What do you call it?’

‘We call it Hell.’

‘There is no need to be profane, my dear boy. I may not be very orthodox, in your sense of that word, but I do feel that these matters ought to be discussed simply, and seriously, and reverently.’

‘Discuss Hell reverently? I meant what I said. You have been in Hell: though if you don’t go back you may call it Purgatory.’

‘Go on, my dear boy, go on. That is so like you. No doubt you’ll tell me why, on your view, I was sent there. I’m not angry.’

‘But don’t you know? You went there because you are an apostate.’

‘Are you serious, Dick?’

‘Perfectly.’

‘This is worse than I expected. Do you really think people are penalised for their honest opinions? Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that those opinions were mistaken.’

‘Do you really think there are no sins of intellect?’

‘There are indeed, Dick. There is hide-bound prejudice, and intellectual dishonesty, and timidity, and stagnation. But honest opinions fearlessly followed— they are not sins.’

‘I know we used to talk that way. I did it too until the end of my life when I became what you call narrow. It all turns on what are honest opinions.’

‘Mine certainly were. They were not only honest but heroic. I asserted them fearlessly. When the doctrine of the Resurrection ceased to commend itself to the critical faculties which God had given me, I openly rejected it. I preached my famous sermon. I defied the whole chapter. I took every risk.’

‘What risk? What was at all likely to come of it except what actually came— popularity, sales for your books, invitations, and finally a bishopric?’
‘Dick, this is unworthy of you. What are you suggesting?’

‘Friend, I am not suggesting at all. You see, I know now. Let us be frank. Our opinions were not honestly come by. We simply found ourselves in contact with a certain current of ideas and plunged into it because it seemed modern and successful. At College, you know, we just started automatically writing the kind of essays that got good marks and saying the kind of things that won applause. When, in our whole lives, did we honestly face, in solitude, the one question on which all turned: whether
after all the Supernatural might not in fact occur? When did we put up one moment’s real resistance to the loss of our faith?’

‘If this is meant to be a sketch of the genesis of liberal theology in general, I reply that it is a mere libel. Do you suggest that men like…’

‘I have nothing to do with any generality. Nor with any man but you and me. Oh, as you love your own soul, remember. You know that you and I were playing with loaded dice. We didn’t want the other to be true. We were afraid of crude salvationism,
afraid of a breach with the spirit of the age, afraid of ridicule, afraid (above all) of real spiritual fears and hopes.’

‘I’m far from denying that young men may make mistakes. They may well be influenced by current fashions of thought. But it’s not a question of how the opinions are formed. The point is that they were my honest opinions, sincerely expressed.’

‘Of course. Having allowed oneself to drift, unresisting, unpraying, accepting every half-conscious solicitation from our desires, we reached a point where we no longer believed the Faith. Just in the same way, a jealous man, drifting and unresisting, reaches a point at which he believes lies about his best friend: a drunkard reaches a point at which (for the moment) he actually believes that another glass will do him no harm. The beliefs are sincere in the sense that they do occur as psychological events in the man’s mind. If that’s what you mean by sincerity they are sincere, and so were ours. But errors which are sincere in that sense are not innocent.’

‘You’ll be justifying the Inquisition in a moment!’

‘Why? Because the Middle Ages erred in one direction, does it follow that there is no error in the opposite direction?’

‘Well, this is extremely interesting,’ said the Episcopal Ghost. ‘It’s a point of view. Certainly, it’s a point of view. In the meantime…’

‘There is no meantime,’ replied the other. ‘All that is over. We are not playing now. I have been talking of the past (your past and mine) only in order that you may turn from it forever. One wrench and the tooth will be out. You can begin as if nothing had ever gone wrong. White as snow. It’s all true, you know. He is in me, for you, with that power. And—I have come a long journey to meet you. You have seen Hell: you are in sight of Heaven. Will you, even now, repent and believe?’

‘I’m not sure that I’ve got the exact point you are trying to make,’ said the Ghost.

‘I am not trying to make any point,’ said the Spirit. ‘I am telling you to repent and believe.’

‘But my dear boy, I believe already. We may not be perfectly agreed, but you have completely misjudged me if you do not realise that my religion is a very real and a very precious thing to me.’

‘Very well,’ said the other, as if changing his plan. ‘Will you believe in me?’

‘In what sense?’

‘Will you come with me to the mountains? It will hurt at first, until your feet are hardened. Reality is harsh to the feet of shadows. But will you come?’ ‘Well, that is a plan. I am perfectly ready to consider it. Of course I should require some assurances…I should want a guarantee that you are taking me to a place where I shall find a wider sphere of usefulness—and scope for the talents that God has given me—and an atmosphere of free inquiry—in short, all that one means by
civilisation and—er—the spiritual life.’

‘No,’ said the other. ‘I can promise you none of these things. No sphere of usefulness: you are not needed there at all. No scope for your talents: only forgiveness for having perverted them. No atmosphere of inquiry, for I will bring you to the land not of questions but of answers, and you shall see the face of God.’

‘Ah, but we must all interpret those beautiful words in our own way! For me there is no such thing as a final answer. The free wind of inquiry must always continue to blow through the mind, must it not? “Prove all things”…to travel hopefully is better
than to arrive.’

‘If that were true, and known to be true, how could anyone travel hopefully? There would be nothing to hope for.’

‘But you must feel yourself that there is something stifling about the idea of finality? Stagnation, my dear boy, what is more soul-destroying than stagnation?’

‘You think that, because hitherto you have experienced truth only with the abstract intellect. I will bring you where you can taste it like honey and be embraced by it as by a bridegroom. Your thirst shall be quenched.’

‘Well, really, you know, I am not aware of a thirst for some ready-made truth which puts an end to intellectual activity in the way you seem to be describing. Will it leave me the free play of Mind, Dick? I must insist on that, you know.’

‘Free, as a man is free to drink while he is drinking. He is not free still to be dry.’

The Ghost seemed to think for a moment. ‘I can make nothing of that idea,’ it said.

‘Listen!’ said the White Spirit. ‘Once you were a child. Once you knew what inquiry was for. There was a time when you asked questions because you wanted answers, and were glad when you had found them. Become that child again: even now.’

‘Ah, but when I became a man I put away childish things.’

‘You have gone far wrong. Thirst was made for water; inquiry for truth. What you now call the free play of inquiry has neither more nor less to do with the ends for which intelligence was given you than masturbation has to do with marriage.’

‘If we cannot be reverent, there is at least no need to be obscene. The suggestion that I should return at my age to the mere factual inquisitiveness of boyhood strikes me as preposterous. In any case, that question-and-answer conception of thought
only applies to matters of fact. Religious and speculative questions are surely on a different level.’

‘We know nothing of religion here: we think only of Christ. We know nothing of speculation. Come and see. I will bring you to Eternal Fact, the Father of all other fact-hood.’

‘I should object very strongly to describing God as a “fact”. The Supreme Value would surely be a less inadequate description. It is hardly…’

‘Do you not even believe that He exists?’

‘Exists? What does Existence mean? You will keep on implying some sort of static, ready-made reality which is, so to speak, “there”, and to which our minds have simply to conform. These great mysteries cannot be approached in that way. If there
were such a thing (there is no need to interrupt, my dear boy) quite frankly, I should not be interested in it. It would be of no religious significance. God, for me, is something purely spiritual. The spirit of sweetness and light and tolerance—and, er,
service, Dick, service. We mustn’t forget that, you know.’

‘If the thirst of the Reason is really dead…,’ said the Spirit, and then stopped as though pondering. Then suddenly he said, ‘Can you, at least, still desire happiness?’

‘Happiness, my dear Dick,’ said the Ghost placidly, ‘happiness, as you will come to see when you are older, lies in the path of duty. Which reminds me…Bless my soul, I’d nearly forgotten. Of course I can’t come with you. I have to be back next Friday
to read a paper. We have a little Theological Society down there. Oh yes! there is plenty of intellectual life. Not of a very high quality, perhaps. One notices a certain lack of grip—a certain confusion of mind. That is where I can be of some use to
them. There are even regrettable jealousies…I don’t know why, but tempers seem less controlled than they used to be. Still, one mustn’t expect too much of human nature. I feel I can do a great work among them. But you’ve never asked me what my paper is about! I’m taking the text about growing up to the measure of the stature of Christ and working out an idea which I feel sure you’ll be interested in. I’m going to point out how people always forget that Jesus (here the Ghost bowed) was a comparatively young man when he died. He would have outgrown some of his earlier views, you know, if he’d lived. As he might have done, with a little more tact and patience. I am going to ask my audience to consider what his mature views would have been. A profoundly interesting question. What a different Christianity we might have had if only the Founder had reached his full stature! I shall end up by pointing out how this deepens the significance of the Crucifixion. One feels for the first time what a disaster it was: what a tragic waste…so much promise cut short. Oh, must you be going? Well,
so must I. Goodbye, my dear boy. It has been a great pleasure. Most stimulating and provocative. Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.’

The Ghost nodded its head and beamed on the Spirit with a bright clerical smile— or with the best approach to it which such unsubstantial lips could manage—and then turned away humming softly to itself ‘City of God, how broad and far.’

She and pentuloius have created a theory that those in hell want to be there or belive they deserve to be there but again Vivian needs to focus more on making these things clearer than being just viewer speculation and get her mind off the relationship drama with birdman and imp boy.
The show Red Dwarf actually parodied that concept, by having a being called The Inquisitor or something like that go around and have people justify their existence or he'd eliminate them. Turns out, the people best at defending themselves either set incredibly low bars, or were just actual narcissists, whereas the more decent people wound up getting eliminated.
 
The closest we kinda get is emberlynn pinkle. It's not clear what she did that got her sent there but it's either the fact that she was a shameless gooner, (lust) a lazy weeaboo who was still at home with her parents, (sloth and possibly idolatry since she had a collection of weeb junk and sex toys) her fetish for demons wanting blitz to do her when she found out he is one, (idolatry amd lust again) or the fact she was willing to let blitz kill her thinking it would let her be with him. (Possibly suicide or at least she was rejecting life by willingly let someone kill her)

She and pentuloius have created a theory that those in hell want to be there or belive they deserve to be there but again Vivian needs to focus more on making these things clearer than being just viewer speculation and get her mind off the relationship drama with birdman and imp boy.
And that's an issue in itself, because she's part of a spin-off show's shorts. If Hazbin Hotel was the only show you were watching from the Hellaverse media, you wouldn't even get that piece of info.
 
I was doing a re-watch of HB season 1 with a couple of people because we hate ourselves, but Loo Loo Land really recontexualized on a lot of things. And really showed that they had little idea of where to take Stolas as character.

Like Stolas is a really shitty dad. Not only being oblivious to the fact that Octavia really doesn't want to go to Loo Loo Land, but also has no clue what his daughter's interests and likes were past the age of five. It presents that these two relationship had been pretty nonexistent for a long while, but then the show will go on saying and showing that the strain of the relationship didn't start until the affair.

In general though, this is a common issue that both HB and HH have with information that conflicts itself, which really proves that at best major plot points are planned out but the stuff around it appear to come up at a whim.
 
but then the show will go on saying and showing that the strain of the relationship didn't start until the affair.
Do they? Legitimately asking because you've seen it more recently than I have. Octavia barely reacts to the screaming and throwing things, which gives me the impressions that this has been going on for a long time. I haven't seen it in ages though, hence the question.
 
I was doing a re-watch of HB season 1 with a couple of people because we hate ourselves, but Loo Loo Land really recontexualized on a lot of things. And really showed that they had little idea of where to take Stolas as character.

Like Stolas is a really shitty dad. Not only being oblivious to the fact that Octavia really doesn't want to go to Loo Loo Land, but also has no clue what his daughter's interests and likes were past the age of five. It presents that these two relationship had been pretty nonexistent for a long while, but then the show will go on saying and showing that the strain of the relationship didn't start until the affair.

In general though, this is a common issue that both HB and HH have with information that conflicts itself, which really proves that at best major plot points are planned out but the stuff around it appear to come up at a whim.
How is it a goofy movie of all things portrayed generational gap (aka the parent not understanding the child isn't a small young child anymore and wants to start being more independent, while also trying to keep parent child bonds) better than Loo Loo Land?


I get what they were trying to say stollas needs to accept octavias not a little girl anymore and octavia needs to understand she may be getting older, but Stolas is still her father and they should try to find new ways to bond and spend time together. Something they again KINDA hint at the end but by the time we see octavia again in the LA episode she's right back to being a "my parents suck and nobody understands me" goth chick.


Ffs going back to the goofy movie comparison even though the sequel an extremely goofy movie kinda retreads the first one's theme of parent child bonds and they way they change as the child grows up it didn't completely reset max into the whiny teenage boy he was in the first one. Sure there was some awkwardness to having max a college aged student being roommates with his adult father but to my recollection most of that was quickly brushed aside.
 
Do they? Legitimately asking because you've seen it more recently than I have. Octavia barely reacts to the screaming and throwing things, which gives me the impressions that this has been going on for a long time. I haven't seen it in ages though, hence the question.
Octavia_13th_Birthday_by_@jigokuhana89.jpg
This was for Octavia's 13th birthday.
IMG_2281.jpeg
I don't know how old she is in this photo but I assume she's maybe 16 since she's wearing the same clothes she does when she's 17 in the show.

So for the majority of her life she has been living in at least what she thought was a happy family.

Since I don't know when exactly Loo Loo Land takes places after Stolas' initial affair, I theorize it to have been at least two months, as Murder Family is when Stolas and Blitzø made the agreement to the transactional fucking. And the phone call between them in Loo Loo makes it sound like they had one of their recent rendezvous. So at this point, it wouldn't be that shocking for Octavia to be used to this new status quo in her life.

I'd also like to mention that this is also probably the first time Octavia has heard her mom scream at Stolas like this. From the little bit of screentime we got about Stolas's marriage before the affair, Stella only mocked and insulted Stolas. And it was never in front of her daughter. It's only after the affair that Stella starts yelling and throwing shit at Stolas. So far for all we know, Octavia might have only ever seen her mom as someone who was proper and calm. And the only reasonable conclusion that she can come to for why her mom is acting this way, is because her father has now become obsessed with this imp.

Mission Zero really shows how Blitzø took up all of Stolas's mind, as he not only changed up his WIFE'S and his bedroom for him, he sexually harrased Blitzø over the phone, and even teleported to his workplace to have sex. It's gotten so bad that Blitzø has to install a "Stolas" button under his desk. Can you imagine having to live with that? Half the time you don't see your father anymore, and the times you do he's constantly fantasizing about some random stranger's dick all the time. No wonder Stella became a screaming banshee, and Octavia a cynical emo.

And because neither Stolas nor Stella sit Octavia down to explain anything to her, of course she's going to blame the person that she believes is the sole cause for why her world is now crumbling around her; fucking Stolas. She literally tells him: "I want to go home. But home doesn't feel like home anymore. You ruined it."

Do you now understand why it's so hard for me to sympathize with Stolas at this point?
 
She and pentuloius have created a theory that those in hell want to be there or belive they deserve to be there
Hmm, a Hell based on personal guilt. Where have I heard that before?
I'M THE SLANDER, I'M IMMENSE
I'M THE AVATAR OF YOUR CONSEQUENCE

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To me, Alastor represents most of the writing problems with the Hellaverse; throwing away worldbuilding and consistent characterization in favor of looking cool.
How is it a goofy movie of all things portrayed generational gap (aka the parent not understanding the child isn't a small young child anymore and wants to start being more independent, while also trying to keep parent child bonds) better than Loo Loo Land?
I'd say it's because you understand both sides of the conflict. Goofy wants to make sure his son stays out of trouble, while Max wants to make sure he's cool. Both of their insecurities are sparked by outside influences (Max's crush on Roxanne and Goofy's friendship with Pete) before they're forced into a situation where they'd need to communicate to escape.
 
Like Stolas is a really shitty dad. Not only being oblivious to the fact that Octavia really doesn't want to go to Loo Loo Land, but also has no clue what his daughter's interests and likes were past the age of five. It presents that these two relationship had been pretty nonexistent for a long while, but then the show will go on saying and showing that the strain of the relationship didn't start until the affair.
And to top it all off, the reason why Stolas took Octavia to Loo Loo Land in the first place was to clear her mind off of his and Stella's fighting...

...only to bring along, to Octavia's eyes, the imp responsible for said fighting.
 
And to top it all off, the reason why Stolas took Octavia to Loo Loo Land in the first place was to clear her mind off of his and Stella's fighting...

...only to bring along, to Octavia's eyes, the imp responsible for said fighting.
What a great dad. Dad of the year everybody. Top ten dads.

I feel like if more people compiled all the shitty things that Stolas did as a dad and looked at it all at once, less people would like him.
 
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