🎭 Dramacow Gamergate / Depression Quest Shitstorm

[teheviltwin]

Okay, just to add on to my previous posts, I want to clarify that I'm not trying to claim that all male gamedevs are disgusting trash. Nor am I trying to say that all female gamedevs are precious innocents and paragons of perfect behavior in the industry. I mean come on, just look at who this thread is centered around.

I spoke of two men in the industry who have treated me poorly because of my gender. Two. Out of the probably hundreds of male gamedevs I've met and spoken with. There may have been a few at TGS that gave me creeper-vibes, but those aren't people I've had to work with.

There are always rotten apples, and you can't pretend that there aren't. Sure, you're not as likely to find them in the cooler, cleaner environments, but unfortunately the huge gender divide in the game industry does result in a number of damp, murky places where apples go bad and/or continue to fester. All I'm saying is that women who want to go into the industry shouldn't be under the false impression that all apples are good.

I don't think anyone is pretending that there aren't. I was asking why you thought either of those incidents had anything to do with your gender. From what I could gather it was a heated disagreement with one individual and a comment, which phrased tactlessly, would creep out anyone of any gender. There are far many more reasons for why people don't get on with each other than their reproductive organs.

I'm sorry if my posts sounded confrontational as it was not my intention to vent my frustration on you.

 

[OBAMATRON]

I wish people would go back to ignoring these circlejerking retards and let them slide back into their cesspool.

 

[tehpope]

That's what happened in the first place and this is why we've ended up here. No thanks.

 

[Himawari]

I don't think anyone is pretending that there aren't.

I brought all of this up to begin with because someone said something along the lines of it being wrong and disingenuous to put women under the impression that they'll be the target of abuse or mockery in the game industry. I was just trying to make the point that women SHOULD be aware of that risk, because it DOES happen. If I had known right out of high school that I wanted to do game design, and went for it right then, before all the personal growth and experiences I ended up acquiring in actuality, I probably would have wound up even worse off than I was before in terms of emotional stability.

I think I was a bit too unclear on the circumstances and background behind the perceived wrongdoings I experienced; I wanted to give only the bare details, for fear of going too off-topic. If I were to expand on them now, though, I would definitely be veering into off-topic territory, so I think I'll just write it up and post it to your profile later. (Later tonight or tomorrow; wanna distance myself from this for a bit longer and calm myself down a bit more, because it did feel like you were trying to invalidate my experiences just because they weren't physical harassment, and that kind of got me worked up. )

A bit more on topic, I do feel like there are too many women like Zoe Quinn who mislabel criticism and being pointed out as having done wrong (I feel like there's a concise word for that but I'm blanking, lol) as abuse and harassment and "omfg oppression and misogyny!", and that is absolutely a dangerous direction to be going in, as it cheapens the genuine problems other women experience.

Devil's advocate though, Zoe probably has been getting genuine harassment in the wake of all this, and I personally don't think anyone deserves that, including her. But that doesn't mean I feel bad for her.

 

[PaxtonFettel]

Well, no, I don't completely agree. At least at this point in time, with the industry as it is, you ARE incredibly likely to be the target of negative attention for being a woman in the game industry, and that is absolutely something that women should be aware of and prepared for when making their decision to follow that path. When I decided I wanted to pursue game design, I emailed Kellee Santiago of thatgamecompany (flOw, Flower, etc.) and she told me "there's a big difference in working at companies that are predominantly male, and working at companies that are like locker rooms." Companies like the latter do exist, and they are absolutely not the places that women want to work.

Whenever I was trashtalked or ogled or whatnot by a male classmate at school, I always dealt with it by telling myself, "well, this is practice for if I ever end up working at a locker room company;" it's terrible that anyone should even have to consider such "practice" necessary, but it is a fact of life in this industry. I had a classmate tell me my art was completely unusable for our game because it made him want to masturbate (ergo, it was too distracting to use in a game). Another classmate, the programmer for my senior project, became enraged and frustrated when I wouldn't back down from his incessant trash talk, as I should, being a meek and submissive woman and all (he ended up unfriending me on Facebook, which I found amusing but simultaneously infuriating, as he was cutting off a line of communication in the middle of game production).

These are the kinds of people we have going into the industry, and it isn't pretty. As it is right now, it is certainly not the place for a woman weak of will.

(btw the senior project game ended up being complete crap with a bunch of the sprites I made being completely disregarded because the programmer got basically nothing done over the course of the entire year, and I was left completely in the dark about this because he refused to show me a playable of the game despite my countless requests throughout the year. Isn't that great, I have no idea what to tell any potential employers if they happen to ask about it or ask why my BIG HUGE IMPORTANT SENIOR PROJECT is the only project in my portfolio without a downloadable version hahaha.)

Well I have to admit that I was more wondering aloud and probably didn't think everything through as much as I could have. Upon reading the quote, I hope I didn't come off as implying that no discrimination takes place and that everything is fine as is. I was thinking in the sense of women seeing the Zoe Quinn incident specifically and with outlets portraying it in such a manner that there is nothing to the criticism, that this huge week or so long mess happened to her for the sole reason of being a woman, it creates an image that this massive week long storm of vitriolic activity could happen to anyone, when in actuality there are reasons behind why this has happened to Zoe and she didn't receive this massive shitstorm for just being a women. I guess I was thinking of women getting the opinion that what happened to Zoe Quinn could happen to any of them without any reason or cause, but in retrospect this assumes a lot and is a stretch. My train of thought was that while there is discrimination, its size and nature may be being misrepresented in a way that would discourage those who may otherwise be up to the task of dealing with petty assholes and boys clubs but taken aback by the kind of massive outpouring that has happened to Zoe in the past few days. I do want to emphasize that I am neither female nor in the gaming industry, and as such don't really have any sort of experience to what it is like, so you know more than I do.(I also hope that game design thing works out for you)

On a side note, I wonder just how much everyone actually knows on each side of the fight, and how much people have willfully ignored. I was rated optimistic last time I said I could see this blowing over soon, but I really think it is. Everyone is getting bored, nothing seems to have changed and Phil Fish has quit the industry again. (meaning he deleted his twitter because as far as I know he hasn't actually been working on another game since Fez) It will be interesting to see what happens at PAX (or wherever there is supposed to be a protest) but I don't really expect too much more from this.

(Also a few comments happened since I started writing this, so it may be weird)

EDIT: It seems somethings may have taken a turn for the interesting. (In regards to me saying that people were getting bored of this and nothing happening as a result of it)

 

[Batman VS Tony Danza]

A woman who wrote for Destructoid apparently got fired and she's raising hell about the sexism and sexual harassment she encountered there. She's pointing out how their support of Zoe and peoples' claims that it's just about misogyny is pretty hypocritical when they're doing that shit in their own house.

Her twitter: https://twitter.com/winnersusedrugs

She names specific people.

Edit: Nevermind. It's protected now. Wasn't earlier today. I'll try to find screenshots.

 

[teheviltwin]

I think I was a bit too unclear on the circumstances and background behind the perceived wrongdoings I experienced; I wanted to give only the bare details, for fear of going too off-topic. If I were to expand on them now, though, I would definitely be veering into off-topic territory, so I think I'll just write it up and post it to your profile later. (Later tonight or tomorrow; wanna distance myself from this for a bit longer and calm myself down a bit more, because it did feel like you were trying to invalidate my experiences just because they weren't physical harassment, and that kind of got me worked up. )
.

I was only discussing what you described. And I am more than aware of the fact that verbal, emotional and mental abuse can be just as damaging. I've been through all of it and so have my sisters but, in striving for brevity, what you described was not gender based harassment or discrimination.

Also back to topic:

 

[That's Our Lolcow]

Yeah, all those "Gamers are dead" posts are possibly the biggest fuckups in the history of gaming journalism. The PAX protest and the fore mentioned articles are definitely going to be centerpieces in this wild, off-the-hook saga of gaming.

 

[John Titor]

I just fired up Depression Quest earlier so I thought I give my two cents.
I mentioned earlier that I'm lenient towards CYOA games, especially the read and choose kinds. Dare I say, DQ passed the "minimal requirements" of a game so I'm trying to be fair here without my opinions of the whole drama cloud my mind.

I just finished the first few pages and I can already tell you its fatal flaw: If you want people to empathize with a character, you need to show your reader and not tell them why they are depressed. Use inner monologue to show us what's going on inside our character's head if you have to because I'm not sure if I should be caring for him or not.

I don't really have much of a rant and I don't feel like continuing the game at the moment so I'm just going to give it a rest for a while. Also, playing the same sappy piano theme over again gets old fast.

 

[Jaimas]

I was only discussing what you described. And I am more than aware of the fact that verbal, emotional and mental abuse can be just as damaging. I've been through all of it and so have my sisters but, in striving for brevity, what you described was not gender based harassment or discrimination.

Also back to topic:

Calling your entire readerbase terrorists (Devin Faraci), worthless (Ben Kuchera), the cancer in their own hobby (Phil Fish), unnecessary (Leigh Alexander), Stupid (Nathan Grayson), and so on has the effect of turning your reader-base hostile and causing them to punch you where it hurts (in the wallet)?

WHO THE FUCK COULD HAVE PREDICTED THAT TREATING OUR CUSTOMERS LIKE SHIT WOULD RESULT IN THEM RESENTING IT.

Godjesus Bearchrist, it's like the entire industry around the Quinn Scandal has turned into the Sonic Team skit from JonTron:

 

[Pine Tar]

I remember seeing someone say that this is "Neckbeard Benghazi". Fuck, this is Gamer Watergate and I hope that some heads start rolling otherwise the trust in the media surrounding video games will be shot forever. You know, assuming that it hasn't already.

 

[Watcher]

I wish people would go back to ignoring these circlejerking retards and let them slide back into their cesspool.

You don't solve a problem by ignoring it and hoping it goes away. That is what has caused this problem in the first place. It has been well known that gaming journalism is garbage but now we've just seen to what extent it is.

I remember seeing someone say that this is "Neckbeard Benghazi". Fuck, this is Gamer Watergate and I hope that some heads start rolling otherwise the trust in the media surrounding video games will be shot forever. You know, assuming that it hasn't already.

A big reason why I consider this entire situation so important is because of how journalists seem to see their reader base. These journalists seem like they're completely above and detached from their readerbase.

I hope they get off their high horse and I hope they learn some humility. Because eventually if they keep treating readers like this, this is going to turn into a problem they won't be able to dig themselves out from.

 

[Wootman]

Only girls get harassed!

 

[tehpope]

Exactly! Women are immune from criticism cause they're are infallible beings. While men are the worst scum ever to exist. All they think about rape and misogyny. *sarcasm over*

At this point, I'd like to see the SJW take over vidya and laugh so hard when it fucking crashes and burns when they get all their wishes fulfilled. I really really don't appreciate being belittled in my hobby just because I want to expose problems within it.

 

[DC 740]

I was at work while the PAX panels were up today. And I heard there was "mansplaining" going on?

Aren't these conventions about fucking video games?

 

[Super Collie]

My roommate is a guest at the convention right now, he showed me the panel schedule before he left. Awful lot of bullshit "feminism in games" panels there... and a tournament in the game Blur, apparently, because people still play that I guess.

Anyways I'm sure everyone is having fun and all of this SJW isn't a buzzkill at all whatsoever.

 

[Mechanism Eight]

My roommate is a guest at the convention right now, he showed me the panel schedule before he left. Awful lot of bullshit "feminism in games" panels there... and a tournament in the game Blur, apparently, because people still play that I guess.

Anyways I'm sure everyone is having fun and all of this SJW isn't a buzzkill at all whatsoever.

It isn't a buzzkill, it's a cancer that's seeping into everything, not just vidya. Nothing is safe. Nothing. It's all being gradually worn away, replaced, turned into more SJW trash until it'll be all that's left of what we love...

I have a fatal tendency to be melodramatic about things, though, so what do I know?

 

[Super Collie]

Oh, I know that. I was just making fun of the "programming" at the convention. Seems like an awful lot of bullshit that any rational person would be wise enough not to care about. I can't remember rhe last time I was at a furry convention where there were panels devoted to any cultural cancer within the community. We were smart enough to tell bronies to make their own conventions.

I heard Tumblr had a convention though. I'm sure it was devoid of all drama.

 

[Wootman]

 

[Jaimas]

It isn't a buzzkill, it's a cancer that's seeping into everything, not just vidya. Nothing is safe. Nothing. It's all being gradually worn away, replaced, turned into more SJW trash until it'll be all that's left of what we love...

I have a fatal tendency to be melodramatic about things, though, so what do I know?

Noble Sunbro, hear me well: Whilst we refer to the idiots trying to drag discourse off course with frankly laughable ad hominem attacks about how we're all misogynist Cis Scum, as SJWs, the term is a misnomer - they do not advocate social justice, they are not warriors, and they most assuredly are not worthy of co-opting such a lofty banner. In doing so, they've caused more damage to the causes they claim to advocate than anyone trying to outright oppose it. Sadly, as has been noted, there's just as shrill - and stupid - voices on the extreme opposite side in the MRAs - again, a movement that should, by all accounts, discuss legitimate men's issues (such as housing assistance equality, divorce settlement equality, and more), and again, a movement currently defined by the shrillest, stupidest voices in the room.

None of them are real threats. They never were. They get to the fore by being obnoxious and loud.

That doesn't make them the majority or even the center of the discussion. They aren't.

Listen to TotalBiscuit on this one: The ones bitching the loudest on both sides want to stifle discussion. They don't want us to discuss things like adults. They don't want social progress. They want their ability ot scream shrilly, attack people without retalation, and view those who disagree with them as monstrous. The key is to recognize these elements for the retrograde bullshit they are. Don't complain about the SJWs or MRAs; ignore the shrill screaming they throw around and focus on the actual issues. If they can't shout you down, if they can't dogpile you into submission, they have no real authority.

Don't bother giving them the time of day.

Press forward. Have the big discussions. Leave the idiots behind, and save your Sunlight Spears for the deserving.