Forging/Knife making - Getting stabby at home

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Oh no, I quenched it a second time and it came out hard, I just dont know if I've added a bunch stress/ruined the grain size which makes it a waste of time to finish.
Dont worry about it, its just basic carbon steel which doesnt have the "iffy" heat treatment requirements of alloy steels.
Just as long your normalize the steel between quenches you should be alright.
You introduce stress into steel by forging it and when you quench it.
You can remove the forging stress by normalizing, but quench always brings some stress(my previous post in this thread about stress points in hardened steel).
Since youre working with basic carbon steel, theres not much to worry about.
Its cheap.
Its forgiving.

I prefer 80crv2 because for some fucking reason basic carbon steel is kinda hard to get here, and because it has muuuuch stronger impact resistance.
Buuuut roughly saying its almost twice as expensive.
If you want to read about steel hardness and toughness, here.
Pretty sure they have "soak" and temper time charts too.
 
Dont worry about it, its just basic carbon steel which doesnt have the "iffy" heat treatment requirements of alloy steels.
Just as long your normalize the steel between quenches you should be alright.
You introduce stress into steel by forging it and when you quench it.
You can remove the forging stress by normalizing, but quench always brings some stress(my previous post in this thread about stress points in hardened steel).
Since youre working with basic carbon steel, theres not much to worry about.
Its cheap.
Its forgiving.

I prefer 80crv2 because for some fucking reason basic carbon steel is kinda hard to get here, and because it has muuuuch stronger impact resistance.
Buuuut roughly saying its almost twice as expensive.
If you want to read about steel hardness and toughness, here.
Pretty sure they have "soak" and temper time charts too.
Thanks. I did a normalising cycle before I quenched the second time, and it came out hard (it actually feels hardened than normal, which is why I was worried about brittleness). I tempered it this morning and it looks good.

You've mentioned 80crv2 being expensive before, it's actually not much more here, but the thicknesses/lengths available are very restricted. I can get 3.5 x 38 x 600mm for $29. The equivalent size in 1084 is $28. But I can get 1084 in thicknesses from 2mm to 20mm and in sheets up to 400mm wide. Once I'm confident with my heat treatment (which I almost was until I fucked up the last one), I'll be giving it a shot.

Thanks for all your advice man, I really appreciate it, and I hope others are learning something too.
Have a great new year!
 
you should get one of those thin fire bricks used in stoves and fireplaces and lay it on the bottom.
Ok, so I got the thin fire brick for the base of my forge, but both the blades I am currently making came out really warped after normalising, even after I had hammered them straight. Finally I held them up on their edges as I got to temp and they came out straight. Is this because of a heat differential now that I have the brick floor? Or is this something I should have been doing all along?
Also, do I need to preheat the forge for any particular amount of time? I usually light it and give it a few minutes, but not much more.
 
Ok, so I got the thin fire brick for the base of my forge, but both the blades I am currently making came out really warped after normalising, even after I had hammered them straight. Finally I held them up on their edges as I got to temp and they came out straight. Is this because of a heat differential now that I have the brick floor? Or is this something I should have been doing all along?
Also, do I need to preheat the forge for any particular amount of time? I usually light it and give it a few minutes, but not much more.
oh yeah preheat your forge.
Depends on the forge, i usually heat mine for 10-15 minutes before i start using it.

EDIT:

Its been so motherfucking cold outside that gas forge will only work for 45 minutes, the gas canister freezes and the pressure drops so ive been using coal instead.
It was nearly -30c here so anvil damage is a real issue so i warmed it up by tying a copper tube with holes in it around it, pass some gas through it and light it on fire.
Fuck this, too cold. If i could safely fit the gas forge inside a heated room i would. Its in a tin shed so its fuck awful cold.
Last year i forged in similar conditions and dropped a near forged blade and dropped it on ice when i was gonna shove it into ash to cool off.
I decided to polish it and then etch it. Good thing i didnt put it to use, hundreds and hundreds of microfractures.(water/ice tends to do that on alot of steels due to how fast the steel cools so it rips itself apart from the stress of being cooled)
 
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Yeaaaah i think i went for too many layers, too tightly packed in, cant really see the pattern that easy
 
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Yeaaaah i think i went for too many layers, too tightly packed in, cant really see the pattern that easy
How many layers is that?

I recently came across a supply of Damascus shotgun barrels which I have started to flatten out. I've done some experiments, and it just doesn't get "knife hard", so I think I'll either use it for jewellery, or for making decorative/ceremonial blades (letter openers, Sgian Dubh).
It's been stupidly hot here and I've been avoiding the workshop, but it looks like today is a better day. Hopefully I'll get some cleaned for a photo.
 
How many layers is that?

I recently came across a supply of Damascus shotgun barrels which I have started to flatten out. I've done some experiments, and it just doesn't get "knife hard", so I think I'll either use it for jewellery, or for making decorative/ceremonial blades (letter openers, Sgian Dubh).
It's been stupidly hot here and I've been avoiding the workshop, but it looks like today is a better day. Hopefully I'll get some cleaned for a photo.
was aiming for around 160something layers, i didnt really count.
yeah damascus shotgun barrels cant be used as a knife blade, they dont have enough carbon.
Well, you CAN introduce those barrel pieces to the wonders of carbon but the process involves sodium ferroCYANIDE if i recall correctly.
You could make a nice looking kitchen knife from the barrels if you were to forge weld proper knife steel between those barrel pieces.
But i got no idea if those barrel pieces would stick, mild steel(non hardeneable) doesnt want to forge weld.
 
was aiming for around 160something layers, i didnt really count.
yeah damascus shotgun barrels cant be used as a knife blade, they dont have enough carbon.
Well, you CAN introduce those barrel pieces to the wonders of carbon but the process involves sodium ferroCYANIDE if i recall correctly.
You could make a nice looking kitchen knife from the barrels if you were to forge weld proper knife steel between those barrel pieces.
But i got no idea if those barrel pieces would stick, mild steel(non hardeneable) doesnt want to forge weld.
That sounds like a lot of work. I just heat treated a blade I made for a Sgian Dubh, because it does harden a little, and will certainly be serviceable for cutting food/thread etc that kilt people actually use them for. My Sgian has mostly been used as a cheese knife at weddings, or opening packages.
I was a bit worried that it would fail once I quenched it though, it started out as a forge welded spiral about 8mm wide, but it seemed to survive. It's tempering in the oven right now.
 
That sounds like a lot of work. I just heat treated a blade I made for a Sgian Dubh, because it does harden a little, and will certainly be serviceable for cutting food/thread etc that kilt people actually use them for. My Sgian has mostly been used as a cheese knife at weddings, or opening packages.
I was a bit worried that it would fail once I quenched it though, it started out as a forge welded spiral about 8mm wide, but it seemed to survive. It's tempering in the oven right now.
yeah spreading out a laminated bar to something knife thick and shaped is its own workout which requires precision.
If it hardens just a little i would just edge quench it and not temper it at ALL.
You can do edge quenching with basic steel that has carbon in it, nothing else.
Alloyed steels shouldnt be edge quenched as they need a soak time, if you edge quench them you wont get the best performance from the steel.
There was a blacksmith here who made knifes like that, 1095 steel(0.9%ish carbon) between two 1040(0.4%carbon) steel slabs.
Sharp edge, bendy sides.
I THINK thats how old laminated Mora knives were made, the only good moras ever made.
 
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Got myself a 1.2kg Cross Peen hammer. I have some 5160 25mm round bar arriving tomorrow, hoping to experiment with integral bolsters on some chefs knives.
 
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Got myself a 1.2kg Cross Peen hammer. I have some 5160 25mm round bar arriving tomorrow, hoping to experiment with integral bolsters on some chefs knives.
Depending how well finished that is, you might want to polish and remove straight edges from the hammer face.
Ive done that with every hammer i have.
My favorite hammer is "angled" inwards towards the handle, it makes forging the bewel much nicer imo since i can forge in the same way as if i was forging flat since the hammer is angled so i dont need to change the angle of the hammer by angling the entire hammer. And the steel doesnt want to move towards me in the anvil since im still forging downwards not towards myself at a slight angle.
 
Depending how well finished that is, you might want to polish and remove straight edges from the hammer face.
Ive done that with every hammer i have.
My favorite hammer is "angled" inwards towards the handle, it makes forging the bewel much nicer imo since i can forge in the same way as if i was forging flat since the hammer is angled so i dont need to change the angle of the hammer by angling the entire hammer. And the steel doesnt want to move towards me in the anvil since im still forging downwards not towards myself at a slight angle.
Yeah, it's quite faceted. The steel is currently on a tour of Australia (our postal service likes to send packages all over the place, instead of directly to the customer sometimes) so I'll clean it up in the next few days.
 
Yeah, it's quite faceted. The steel is currently on a tour of Australia (our postal service likes to send packages all over the place, instead of directly to the customer sometimes) so I'll clean it up in the next few days.
I try to make every single tool i can myself.
Id love to forge out my own hammer from 1045 but the closest place that sells it in bits is quite a drive away and they dont ship out small orders.

My next tooling project is gonna be a stropping wheel thats 40cm in diameter, i had a 30cm wheel and i scrapped it since i happened to stumble across a 40cm plywood wheel thats 5cm thick at work.
Oh and im thinking of mixing my own stropping compound for it, im thinking of a wax based one that contains really fine mesh diamond dust(ebay, cheap).
Spray applied diamond stropping liquid is much easier, its literally just glycerine/glycol water and diamond dust.

Once the ground thaws here im gonna have to dig a pit for the dry still so i can make more birch bark pitch.
Shits expensive, about 900-1000 dollars/euros(roughly) per kilogram here. Its so expensive because it no longer has any use and nobody really makes it, only people who use it are people who restore antiques or make 1 to 1 replicas of antiques.
Only thing i use the pitch for is treating string. It acts as a vulcanizer, like that vulcanized rubber tape stuff. Once it sticks together, it sticks.
Making it is an, experience. I did it once years ago and got about 100 grams of it and for my work i lost my ability to smell for a week.
 
That's so fucking cool. Are you using it for wrapped handles?
No, i use it for making vulcanizing thread for the sheathes.
Nobody sells the string so you need to coat the thread yourself with the pitch.
Its what people here used for a long time.
I use a 3 thread fishermans linen thread mostly, i coat the thread by melting some pitch into a piece of leather, then rub it on the thread thats under tension fast enough where the pitch melts from friction. The stuff was used as a glue back in the day too.
The funny thing about the stuff is that its not a solid despite feeling like one, its a very very very viscous liquid, if i leave the can i have the stuff in on its side at room temperature for a few months the stuff shifts from gravity inside the can.
 
No, i use it for making vulcanizing thread for the sheathes.
Nobody sells the string so you need to coat the thread yourself with the pitch.
Its what people here used for a long time.
I use a 3 thread fishermans linen thread mostly, i coat the thread by melting some pitch into a piece of leather, then rub it on the thread thats under tension fast enough where the pitch melts from friction. The stuff was used as a glue back in the day too.
The funny thing about the stuff is that its not a solid despite feeling like one, its a very very very viscous liquid, if i leave the can i have the stuff in on its side at room temperature for a few months the stuff shifts from gravity inside the can.
Is there a particular reason for using it? Is it a traditional thing to do in Finland? I just made a very average sheath for a camp knife, but I just used artificial sinew.
Oh, and another question; whe you were working with leaf spring, what did you quench in? Im wondering if Canola will work for my 5160, or if I need to buy some Parks 50.
 
Is there a particular reason for using it? Is it a traditional thing to do in Finland? I just made a very average sheath for a camp knife, but I just used artificial sinew.
Oh, and another question; whe you were working with leaf spring, what did you quench in? Im wondering if Canola will work for my 5160, or if I need to buy some Parks 50.
Ive always used warm cooking oil with rapid up and down movement, if you go side to side with the movement you might get a warp.
Ive considered getting actual quenching oil but getting it here in finland in "not stupidly large amounts" is expensive and alot of the places that offer it are dropshippers.
5160 is sub 0.6% carbon but its alloyed so warm canola oil will work.
While using warm oil to quench something hot might seem counterintuitive its not.
Warm oil is less viscous, so the gas bubbles leave the metals surface faster even during rapid movement(leidenfrost effect, bubble acts as an insulator).
Using cooking oils is perfectly fine untill you start using high alloy steels, and at that point least of your problems is the right oil as you need pretty accurate temperatures and soaking times.

The spring steel i use might be JIS SUP 9 aka 5155, i have a huge supply of it that came from dismantled 80´s Landcruisers.


I use birch bark pitch because there is no real substitute that isnt messy and doesnt smell like chemicals or shitty rubber.
And yeah people here have used it for a century or two.
Wax thread is common too but it doesnt have the vulcanization effect that birch bark has.
You can add the pitch to any organic thread.
Oh right i forgot to mention, i also rub the thread with candle wax and then wipe it off with cloth.
Making 10 meters or so of the thread usually takes me about an hour or so, i just set up the thread between the house and a tree under tension and i walk along the thread while rubbing it in, usually i make few passes along the thread.

So basically when you thread the sheathe with it, and every stitch has a simple knot, the pitch sticks together like glue, so if a stich somewhere in the line is cut the whole thing wont unravel.

Just checked few websites and Etsy, yeah its about 1000 dollars per kilogram.
Pitch that still has some "oil" in from the distilling is about 500 per kg.

I tried clay hardening yesterday, again, and ive come to the conclusion that its fucking worthless to do with modern steels.
Gotta try it on 1095 tho, and temper it below 225 c, maybe then it makes sense.
 
I tried clay hardening yesterday, again, and ive come to the conclusion that its fucking worthless to do with modern steels.
Gotta try it on 1095 tho, and temper it below 225 c, maybe then it makes sense
You mean making a Hamon (as the japanese would say), or a temper line (to use the correct name)?
Or is this some quenching in wet clay technique I've never heard of?
 
I got an old 5lb doghead hammer back up and running for working on my round bar, it's a lot tougher to move than I thought. I have annealed a piece to work with (I did assume it was shipped annealed, but you can't be sure) so I'll give it another go later in the week. Tonight I'm quenching and tempering a batch of blades.
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