Forging/Knife making - Getting stabby at home

[Adolf Hulkler]

Havent been able to forge in 2 weeks, its way too hot to spend an entire day at the forge.
>be me
>yesterday
>31c
>hot as fuck sun
>forge is in its own building thats a repurposed sheetmetal garage
>go do polishing with the rotary bench tool(the polishing wax stains everything and it doesnt come off wood so i keep it outside)
>look at temp meter
>51c
>fuqqq
>just as a test i turn on gas forge, turn on ventilation in the forging area
>wait 30 minutes
>64c
>leave
>start the sauna oven
>wait 60 minutes
>80c
>ah perfect, il go relax and get away from the horrific heat outside in the sauna that is nearly triple the temperature!

Havent done "sorko" style handles before.
Sorkoupotus is when you hammer in 0.1-0.2mm thick, work hardened/roll hardened silver/brass/nickel silver into a birch bark handle.
Thats what ive been trying. The thing with it is, a complex handle takes maybe a hundred individual pieces of thin metal.

Not mine, im just trying to make the alphabet this way properly.
Ive avoided trying this because its incredibly hard and time consuming. If you fuck up hammering in the piece, it might leave a really ugly pit into the soft birch bark.

If someone reads this and thinks "huh birch bark handle? thats gotta be easy to form into a handle!" its not. It will immediately gunk up sandpaper and if youre using a powertool, excessive heat from friction of whopping 60c will make it so that the gunk is hard to remove. Youl basically be changing out your sandpaper on a powertool constantly.
(hand wire brush and alcohol/brakecleaner works),
Oh and metal dust/powder that is created from sanding with GREATER THAN 320p will permanently stain it and it needs to be sanded off, so polishing the brass pieces on both ends of the handle needs some more work than normally.

 

[Frostnipped Todger]

My garage got broken into today, and someone made off with a machete my grandfather carried in WWII, and also a gift for a friends wedding tomorrow.
I was making a kitchen knife for the bride, who is kind of a weeb. I did a Tsuchime finish, and then a Ferric Chloride etch. I'd made an octagonal Blackwood handle as well.
This is the last photo I have of it unfortunately.

 

[BohemianBorzoi]

I've been interested in forging for a while. Right now I'm mostly fucking around and teaching myself. I set up a simple forge from a 28 inch fire pit. Found it at Walmart on sale for like $60.

It ended up being larger than what I had planned for. I didn't want to use a ton of refractory concrete, I'm lazy and I want it to be able to carry it easily. A solution to this was to make a ceramic fiber base to put the refractory on top of. To make it stick properly I had to use glue that can tolerate high temps (sodium silicate). After that I sprayed the fiber with a rigidizer so that it didn't move.

Glue and fiber application:



Final product with cured refractory:


For now I'm using an old hair dryer as my blower:



While I was cleaning the workspace up, I found a thin piece of rebar. Figured it would be nice to see what hitting hot metal felt like. I haven't gotten the chance to work with anything outside of small jewelry pieces and wire. Here's what I ended up with before the forge got too cold. It's not pretty. Was more focused on getting everything working properly over trying to make anything since I had limited time.

Spoiler

I don't have a anvil currently so I used a sledgehammer head:


I'm happy I did all of this because there's a few things I need to change or add before I start.

-The only charcoal I had available was briquettes. I know I need to get hardwood but wow they really don't get hot enough. It was fine for my shitty piece of rebar, not so much for what I want to eventually do.
-It works in a pinch, but man a sledgehammer isn't a whole lot of space.
-Concrete blocks or something to make the forge higher so that I'm not bending over. Same for the anvil once I get one.
-Extra piping for the hair dryer.
-Fire bricks to help hold heat better.

Unfortunately I don't know how seriously I'll be able to focus on learning right now (getting out and hitting metal specifically). Once I get some practice in I'll post some finished pieces. It might take a bit but they'll look nicer than the rusty rebar.

 

[Frostnipped Todger]

Made a couple of Bunka style chefs knives as wedding gifts. Not 100% happy with them, but the wife seems to like them.

 

[Adolf Hulkler]

A solution to this was to make a ceramic fiber base to put the refractory on top of. To make it stick properly I had to use glue that can tolerate high temps (sodium silicate)

Yeah just make sure that insulation isnt exposed to the flame and airflow.
The high temperature insulation fibers are bad for you, not asbestos bad but they are bad(aluminium silica for instance).
Those cheap chinese gas forges that are made from sheet metal, blower that melts in 20 hours of use and completely exposed silica insulation cost about 100-150 dollaridoos, but degrade fast as fuck because the insulation is completely exposed(and the blower eventually erodes from high heat and exposure to air while its hot)


Usually when i forge, i use counter forging technique like in this image.
You shape out the knifes shape by forging, then you start forging in the edge of the blade on the "spine".
The piece will bend and warp to be straight on the previously curved side.

The pro of this technique is is that instead of forging in the edge and having to constantly straighten the blade. which might bend the edge off center of the blade, you dont have to straighten the curve of the blade.
Also, you can forge the edge area of the blade real thin this way which saves some grinding time, buuut if your edge is already kinda thin, you cant straighten the curve anymore without fucking up your workpiece.(well you can but you need to use hardwood strike face on the anvil and a wooden mallet/hammer)

Then con of this technique is that you really need to learn it.
If you shape the piece "wrong" before you start hammering in the edge, youl be left with a real fucking ugly "short beak" or "drop point" tip on the knife.
It also doesnt really work well on long knifes.

rebar

rebar is a good learning medium as its way more malleable than high carbon steels or alloy steels.
Just dont expect much in regards of edge retention.
Rebar steel can be quenched and hardened but its got alot of impurities because its a low grade steel.
Buuut its cheap as shit.
Id honestly make a bush chopper from rebar, they dont need to be as hard as knives and they need to withstand impacts.


Few weekends ago i made a 15 layer damascus billet, forged it into a long round bar and twisted it, cut it into pieces, stacked and forged it flat.
Havent acid etched it yet, once i do il try to remember to post a picture.

 

[BohemianBorzoi]

Yeah just make sure that insulation isnt exposed to the flame and airflow.
The high temperature insulation fibers are bad for you, not asbestos bad but they are bad(aluminium silica for instance).

I tried my best to have it completely covered by the refractory. The airflow is also well above the fiber/refractory as well. This one is going to be used only outdoors so I wasn't as concerned, but I'll keep my face covered just to be safe. Once the concrete needs to be replaced I'll use pure refractory instead of having it on top of fiber. Now that it's in a permanent location I don't have to worry about weight as much.

Those cheap chinese gas forges that are made from sheet metal, blower that melts in 20 hours of use and completely exposed silica insulation cost about 100-150 dollaridoos, but degrade fast as fuck because the insulation is completely exposed(and the blower eventually erodes from high heat and exposure to air while its hot)

Considered going this route but they all looked like the sketchy kinda cheap. Glad I didn't. I don't need something to melt or break when I'm fucking around with fire and gas. Rather have to deal with charcoal until I have the cash for a nice setup.

Usually when i forge, i use counter forging technique like in this image.

Thank you for this! I appreciate the advice. I'll keep this in mind when I go to make a serious attempt at a blade.

rebar is a good learning medium as its way more malleable than high carbon steels or alloy steels.
Just dont expect much in regards of edge retention.
Rebar steel can be quenched and hardened but its got alot of impurities because its a low grade steel.
Buuut its cheap as shit.

That's what I figured. When I was reading about what to start with rebar seemed like the most economical option. I don't like to invest a bunch of money into a hobby until I feel like I've mastered the basic of basics. The most expensive steel in the world is worthless if I can't bang on it right.

On blacksmithing in general, are there any beginner projects you enjoyed when you started out? Looking around online a lot of people start with things like hooks, leafs, nails and fire pokers. Real basic shit like that.

Few weekends ago i made a 15 layer damascus billet, forged it into a long round bar and twisted it, cut it into pieces, stacked and forged it flat.
Havent acid etched it yet, once i do il try to remember to post a picture.

Sounds gorgeous, please do!

 

[Adolf Hulkler]

On blacksmithing in general, are there any beginner projects you enjoyed when you started out? Looking around online a lot of people start with things like hooks, leafs, nails and fire pokers. Real basic shit like that.

I went straight to knives, i dont forge anything else, except if i need some tooling which i make myself.
I used old files back then, just gotta grind away the filing faces before forging(those filing grooves are like microfractures on the steel, so the blade will snap easily because of them)
Here there are alot of courses that last a few weekends where a professional teaches random people.
Theyre all over the place every year here.
Advanced courses for historical puukkos are nowdays rare because those professional who had been teaching that stuff for decades, are all retired or dead now.

The most expensive steel in the world is worthless if I can't bang on it right.

Some of them arent even forgeable.
The "best of the best" really expensive steels also need very exact temperatures and heating times.
I cant use those steels since i dont have a proper heat treatment oven that can get to quenching temperatures.
orite quite a few high end steels also need cryo treatment to get extra hard. They get, complicated.
I use 80crv2 because its readily available here, basic high carbon steels like 1095 really arent.
Its 80crv2 is much better in every regard compared to basic high carbon steel BUUUUT its much more expensive.
Its also a low alloy steel so its heat treatment is slightly more complicated and exact. But only slightly.

 

[Frostnipped Todger]

Coupla updates on my progress.

My little forge was annoying and expensive to run, so I invested a couple of hundred bucks to get something better. I got this burner and 8 firebricks from an online store, so now I'm burning propane, which is way better.
It gets way hotter, way faster than my previous effort.

I spent about $30 on steel angle and threaded rods to hold everything together, and I'm pretty happy with it.

I also have made a couple of knives that I've given away to family, and I've started making wooden stands for them.

Seems like a better idea than getting the blades bashed around in a drawer.

I need to work on my bevels, my standard frame of reference for knives is bushcrafting, and a Scandi grind doesn't lend itself to slicing vegetables very well. I wish I hadn't given away the first few knives I made, but I guess I can always get them back to re-profile.

Edit: spelling.

 

[Skitarii]

Back in my friend's forge and I'm bored. What should I make?

 

[Frostnipped Todger]

Back in my friend's forge and I'm bored. What should I make?

How much steel do you have?

ETA: did you make any progress on that axe head?

 

[WhatInTheActualFuck]

Forget in fire is honestly the worst kind of "forging content" on video.
Its more about the suspense if a blade will break in a task that it isnt fucking intended for.
Few good channels on youtube are Alec Steele and Shurap.
Alec usually talks alot, and alot.
Shurap doesnt talk at all, he just shows the process.
Theres a few more but their names escape my mind at the moment.

You ever watch Will Stelter? I like his stuff quite a lot. I also watch Kyle Royer, but something about his on camera persona puts me off.

 

[Skitarii]

How much steel do you have?

5 kg that I'm willing to part with rn

ETA: did you make any progress on that axe head?

My first one turned out shit and I gave it to my friend. Took me a few more tries to get it right

 

[Adolf Hulkler]

You ever watch Will Stelter? I like his stuff quite a lot. I also watch Kyle Royer, but something about his on camera persona puts me off.

eh the only channels i can name by name are shurap, alec steele, knife steel nerds and UK bladeshow.

 

[Artificer967]

For starters il lay some things out.

 

[Adolf Hulkler]

Coupla updates on my progress.

My little forge was annoying and expensive to run, so I invested a couple of hundred bucks to get something better. I got this burner and 8 firebricks from an online store, so now I'm burning propane, which is way better.
It gets way hotter, way faster than my previous effort.
View attachment 8229361
I spent about $30 on steel angle and threaded rods to hold everything together, and I'm pretty happy with it.

I also have made a couple of knives that I've given away to family, and I've started making wooden stands for them.
View attachment 8229369
Seems like a better idea than getting the blades bashed around in a drawer.

I need to work on my bevels, my standard frame of reference for knives is bushcrafting, and a Scandi grind doesn't lend itself to slicing vegetables very well. I wish I hadn't given away the first few knives I made, but I guess I can always get them back to re-profile.

Edit: spelling.

How much are the insulating fire bricks there? Theyre awfully expensive here.
Also, you should get one of those thin fire bricks used in stoves and fireplaces and lay it on the bottom.
Borax is a bitch and itl break the insulating brick when you try to clean that up.
Same with slag, is safer to scrape off if you got firebrick on the bottom.
And gas relatively maintenance free because you dont need to scoop out a slab of glass slag(sand, bits of iron melted into it) from the bottom of a coke forge.

Gas isnt the hottest you can get, the reason why that forge gets hot is because of the aluminiumsilica bricks, theres no heat going to waste.
Hottest you can get is with anthracite, but its very annoying to deal with because its very brittle and easily breaks into small fragments or into dust while in use.
Pre cooked coke(so all the sulfur and other nasty shit has been burned away) is something ive dealt with, but its price has doubled here so its not worth using it for anything else except damascus.(even then i preheat with the gas forge and keep the coke at a mild temperature while im doing that because coke is so expensive).

I fixed my dads old Tormek water grindwheel, made a HSS grinding bit so i could make the stone round(it was oval and pitted from misuse).
I also replaced the strop/honing wheel, a new plastic wheel with leather on the surface costs about 80 dollaridoos/europs here... I just glued new leather on it and tried it out with Turtle Wax Chrome.
I tried it out and im so happy how much better it worked in sharpening that im going to have to make a 500mm leather honing wheel for myself...

 

[Frostnipped Todger]

How much are the insulating fire bricks there? Theyre awfully expensive here.

They're $11aud each. If I lived in a major city I could probably get them pretty easily, but I have to order them online instead. The eight bricks plus burner set was $269 (from memory).
You just prompted me to get a hard fire brick, so that should arrive by the end of the week.

I fixed my dads old Tormek water grindwheel, made a HSS grinding bit so i could make the stone round(it was oval and pitted from misuse).
I also replaced the strop/honing wheel, a new plastic wheel with leather on the surface costs about 80 dollaridoos/europs here... I just glued new leather on it and tried it out with Turtle Wax Chrome.

Love the Tormek system, thankfully I have one at work.



I just got given a new anvil for my birthday, 20kg of 6150 from Nordic Edge. Heaps better than my dodgy chinesium anvil.

 

[Adolf Hulkler]

I just got given a new anvil for my birthday, 20kg of 6150 from Nordic Edge. Heaps better than my dodgy chinesium anvil.

Does it ring like a bell when hit on the side?
If so, enjoy ear rape, forger child, this is where you became deaf.

Anvils are fucking expensive tho, good ones are always about 10dollaridoos per kilogram untill you get to the 100kg mark where it gets kinda fucky.

 

[Frostnipped Todger]

Does it ring like a bell when hit on the side?
If so, enjoy ear rape, forger child, this is where you became deaf.

Anvils are fucking expensive tho, good ones are always about 10dollaridoos per kilogram untill you get to the 100kg mark where it gets kinda fucky.

If it does I'll stick a big magnet on the side/wrap it in chain. But I've played 1000+ gigs, worked in construction, and I shoot, so my hearing is a bit questionable to begin with.
I have been looking around for old anvils, and a guy at work told me to check farm sales, as a lot of farmers have big old anvils they no longer use. I don't "need" anything bigger for now, but if I can get a big bastard cheap, I'd certainly pick it up.

Actually, I have a question for you; I did a heat treat on a blade last night (still using 1084), and I realised this morning that the heel didn't harden. I had done one tempering cycle at this point. I have since done a second heat treat, but is this blade fucked? It's a kitchen knife, so if it's going to be brittle it's not that important, but will it hold an edge? Should I just throw it and start again?

 

[Adolf Hulkler]

If it does I'll stick a big magnet on the side/wrap it in chain. But I've played 1000+ gigs, worked in construction, and I shoot, so my hearing is a bit questionable to begin with.
I have been looking around for old anvils, and a guy at work told me to check farm sales, as a lot of farmers have big old anvils they no longer use. I don't "need" anything bigger for now, but if I can get a big bastard cheap, I'd certainly pick it up.

Actually, I have a question for you; I did a heat treat on a blade last night (still using 1084), and I realised this morning that the heel didn't harden. I had done one tempering cycle at this point. I have since done a second heat treat, but is this blade fucked? It's a kitchen knife, so if it's going to be brittle it's not that important, but will it hold an edge? Should I just throw it and start again?

So youve quenched it twice, and its still soft?
Sounds like your propane forge is extremely oxygen positive, and it burns the carbon off.
Ive had that happen to me a few times when ive heat treated multiple pieces in a row and the oil was too hot on the last one so it didnt quench fast enough.

 

[Frostnipped Todger]

So youve quenched it twice, and its still soft?
Sounds like your propane forge is extremely oxygen positive, and it burns the carbon off.
Ive had that happen to me a few times when ive heat treated multiple pieces in a row and the oil was too hot on the last one so it didnt quench fast enough.

Oh no, I quenched it a second time and it came out hard, I just dont know if I've added a bunch stress/ruined the grain size which makes it a waste of time to finish.