Fire Emblem series

[-4ZURE-]

You misinterpreted their support. The latter half of their support revolves around Hubert's inability to express his personal self to others like a normal human being rather than him being shady behind her back.

It's pretty clear she does trust him as an asset/ally and just wants to have a semi-normal relationship, at least within this dialogue exchange.

Spoiler: Support

Hubert: In that case, Lady Edelgard, I ask you to turn a blind eye to my secrets. They are trifles, beneath your notice. Best I handle them alone. You should focus on the path ahead of you. The scarlet path I have carefully prepared. Whether that path is red with blood is not something you need trouble yourself over.

Edelgard: As emperor, I'm obliged to accept that answer. However, as your friend, it irritates me to no end. You speak often of painting the path I walk, yet you do so in secret. I am the one you serve, but you refuse to let me in. I trust you, Hubert, and that is precisely why I want to know everything, your secret hopes and burdens. All of it. If I'm truly the center of your world, then I wish you would trust me as well as I trust you.

I parsed through their support a few times including his other supports and I have yet to find a mention of Edelgard acknowledging him doing things behind her back. And really, I don't see how one would conclude that Edelgard's trust in him is questionable within the vacuum of this one support.

For future reference, use the FE wiki to read on supports rather than going by memory. I've compared some of the supports posted on there to the base game and I have yet to find any misinformation. There are videos on Youtube that compile all of the supports for each character if you want a more reliable alternative.

Not entirely misremembering. Even from your quote you can see some annoyance to his actions. This line in particular is a stand out:
“You speak often of painting the path I walk, yet you do so in secret. I am the one you serve yet you refuse to let me in.”

This line is a response to Hubert who told her that she should not trouble herself over whether or not the path he set for her is bloody.

The line depicts that she does want to know what is going on and how this path is actually being constructed. Hubert is was loyal friend, but he is keeping secrets from her. She trusts that what he is doing is right due to friendship, but seems to finally want to get a handle on things.

After those lines Hubert replies to El and starts with two things that have nothing to do with emotions:
”Very well. You have me beaten. I will tell you as much as I am able. From the assassins I've eliminated, to the gold I've spent on bribes...to the identity of the one I love.”

If Edelgard just wanted him to open up on his feelings, then why start his secrets reveal with elimination and bribes? Those things have nothing to do with personal feelings or stories, those are connected to his secretive behaviors in building her path. These are all clearly things Edelgard is unaware of and now getting to know because she asked. Yes, the exchange ends with his true love, but it seems El’s issue is a mixture of both of our points, she hates the secrets kept from her whether they are personal or based on this scarlet path.

As a last point, you underline “your secret hopes and burdens. All of it” This line could also further my point. Disregarding secret hopes as yes it is personal to Hubert and I will give you credit on that, the other two parts stick out. His burdens are, let’s be honest, probably a good 9/10 related to Edelgard’s goal. The dude lives for her and is always about taking burdens off her shoulders, even if he does not word it as such. I believe the term can be applied as El wants to know what burdens he is taking on for her, what he is doing to create the scarlet road. All of it is pretty self explanatory. She wants him to spill on all secrets.


To add to your counterpoint though, the A support is really the only mention of any of Hubert’s actions. The whole opening up segment started in the B support at the end where it was fairly clear that El was worried about him not expressing his past. As for the quote:

Spoiler: B support

• Edelgard: I've never heard that story before. So there are things you've never told me.
• Hubert: It wasn't important.
• Edelgard: That's beside the point. I wish to know these things. If there's anything else you're keeping from me, please tell me at once.
• Hubert: Respectfully, I decline.
• Edelgard: Why? It's a simple order. I really must kn—
• Hubert: Speaking of your orders, there was a task you gave me earlier which I have yet to carry out. Excuse me.
• Edelgard: Wait just a moment! I just hope he's not hiding anything too worrisome...

While you can try to read El’s worrisome being about whatever task Hubert is carrying out, I think it is pretty clear it was over Hubert’s story and not the new task.


Honestly, Edelgard got kinda misused due to the need to keep her secret, so her supports barely explore anything till the end. With the Hubert one, it was mostly backstory on how they met, then turned into a secrets sharing. The secrets seem to range from personal to actions, as El seems devoted to learning everything about Hubert. I guess to say, you are right in your assertion, but I think it is a bit more than both of us are presenting. The issue is that the point of the support is basically relagated to one part, so there is not a whole lot to go off of. We have what, maybe like 3-5 lines to go off of. At this point, I am just looking at single sentences if not words to fully illustrate anything as the support is so short.

I parsed through their support a few times including his other supports and I have yet to find a mention of Edelgard acknowledging him doing things behind her back. And really, I don't see how one would conclude that Edelgard's trust in him is questionable within the vacuum of this one support.

I must have misspoke and not gotten the point across clearly. My point was that of an audience member, not Edelgard. An audience member would likely see Edelgard’s leadership as shoty and question who she places trust in. If TWSITD was not already a red flag, than the one who stays with her being someone who blantantly disregards orders (see Ferdinand-Hubert B support) and takes a pleasure in killing should probably be the ultimate red flag. As someone following her, her judgement on what makes good allies is questionable at best. Though I will admit, Hubert really cleans himself up by act two and is a pretty good second leader.

I am guessing you are referring to this by the way;

Cannot disagree. My main point was that Hubert does not set a good image for El, and that many fans will sort of ignore it. I actually like Hubert as a character and he was the only driving force that made CF interesting other than a few moments with El, but he is certainly shady and his confrontational approach of scaring fellow classmates really does put El’s judgement on allies into question.

I will admit that I may be looking at things wrong. I know Edelgard is a complex character that requires atleast a 1000IQ to comprehend with all the 4D chess in the background. (kidding of course.) I would be interested to see a response or if I completely missed what you were saying at one point. But from what I have seen so far, I think both stances have a place.

 

[Zeke Von Genbu]

Not entirely misremembering. Even from your quote you can see some annoyance to his actions. This line in particular is a stand out:
“You speak often of painting the path I walk, yet you do so in secret. I am the one you serve yet you refuse to let me in.”

This line is a response to Hubert who told her that she should not trouble herself over whether or not the path he set for her is bloody.

The line depicts that she does want to know what is going on and how this path is actually being constructed. Hubert is was loyal friend, but he is keeping secrets from her. She trusts that what he is doing is right due to friendship, but seems to finally want to get a handle on things.

After those lines Hubert replies to El and starts with two things that have nothing to do with emotions:
”Very well. You have me beaten. I will tell you as much as I am able. From the assassins I've eliminated, to the gold I've spent on bribes...to the identity of the one I love.”

If Edelgard just wanted him to open up on his feelings, then why start his secrets reveal with elimination and bribes? Those things have nothing to do with personal feelings or stories, those are connected to his secretive behaviors in building her path. These are all clearly things Edelgard is unaware of and now getting to know because she asked. Yes, the exchange ends with his true love, but it seems El’s issue is a mixture of both of our points, she hates the secrets kept from her whether they are personal or based on this scarlet path.

As a last point, you underline “your secret hopes and burdens. All of it” This line could also further my point. Disregarding secret hopes as yes it is personal to Hubert and I will give you credit on that, the other two parts stick out. His burdens are, let’s be honest, probably a good 9/10 related to Edelgard’s goal. The dude lives for her and is always about taking burdens off her shoulders, even if he does not word it as such. I believe the term can be applied as El wants to know what burdens he is taking on for her, what he is doing to create the scarlet road. All of it is pretty self explanatory. She wants him to spill on all secrets.


To add to your counterpoint though, the A support is really the only mention of any of Hubert’s actions. The whole opening up segment started in the B support at the end where it was fairly clear that El was worried about him not expressing his past. As for the quote:

Spoiler: B support

• Edelgard: I've never heard that story before. So there are things you've never told me.
• Hubert: It wasn't important.
• Edelgard: That's beside the point. I wish to know these things. If there's anything else you're keeping from me, please tell me at once.
• Hubert: Respectfully, I decline.
• Edelgard: Why? It's a simple order. I really must kn—
• Hubert: Speaking of your orders, there was a task you gave me earlier which I have yet to carry out. Excuse me.
• Edelgard: Wait just a moment! I just hope he's not hiding anything too worrisome...

While you can try to read El’s worrisome being about whatever task Hubert is carrying out, I think it is pretty clear it was over Hubert’s story and not the new task.


Honestly, Edelgard got kinda misused due to the need to keep her secret, so her supports barely explore anything till the end. With the Hubert one, it was mostly backstory on how they met, then turned into a secrets sharing. The secrets seem to range from personal to actions, as El seems devoted to learning everything about Hubert. I guess to say, you are right in your assertion, but I think it is a bit more than both of us are presenting. The issue is that the point of the support is basically relagated to one part, so there is not a whole lot to go off of. We have what, maybe like 3-5 lines to go off of. At this point, I am just looking at single sentences if not words to fully illustrate anything as the support is so short.


I must have misspoke and not gotten the point across clearly. My point was that of an audience member, not Edelgard. An audience member would likely see Edelgard’s leadership as shoty and question who she places trust in. If TWSITD was not already a red flag, than the one who stays with her being someone who blantantly disregards orders (see Ferdinand-Hubert B support) and takes a pleasure in killing should probably be the ultimate red flag. As someone following her, her judgement on what makes good allies is questionable at best. Though I will admit, Hubert really cleans himself up by act two and is a pretty good second leader.

I am guessing you are referring to this by the way;



I will admit that I may be looking at things wrong. I know Edelgard is a complex character that requires atleast a 1000IQ to comprehend with all the 4D chess in the background. (kidding of course.) I would be interested to see a response or if I completely missed what you were saying at one point. But from what I have seen so far, I think both stances have a place.

Hubert's entire point is he is meant to act in Edelgard's best interest (as far as he believes, which is why he'll disobey her), he is not trying to be her friend he is trying to be her retainer. He acts with pragmatic cruelty in her name as Edelgard is something of an idealist, especially in her own route where Byleth keeps her coldness in check, considering she wants to upheaval an entire society into something entirely different in what she considers more fair.

He is basically her employee and Edelgard is a boss trying to be his friend and confidant, Hubert responds to these attempts with effectively "Lets keep our relationship professional only". Hubert believes that Edelgard should ultimately care about herself and the world she is trying to make over wasting time with him. Hubert has basically attempted to give up his own personal goals, whatever those might have been, in his ultimate focus on making Edelgard's vision a reality. Lets use a different game to explain this. In FE7 does Eliwood really know anything about Markus or what he wants? Not at all, because Eliwood is Markus' liege and nothing more. What about Oswin to Hector? Oswin actively lies to Hector because he is following orders. These characters are just the retainers of less morally questionable figures which is why they seem different then Hubert, when really they aren't. Hubert is holding back his personal ambitions to the point where his personal ambitions might as well be Edelgard's ambitions. Hubert is overall just a loyal retainer of a leader with a questionable plan using questionable (but very pragmatic) methods.

This is not a sign that Edelgard's leadership sucks to me, it is a sign of the amount of loyalty that she has fostered within Hubert that he'll throw away anything and everything for her. How much that speaks to her character is up to interpretation I suppose as I don't remember their past being very interesting except that Hubert found that his father was a traitorous backstabber and ultimately acts the opposite by being as loyal as he can be. Part of loyalty isn't just about doing what someone says, it is about having the willingness to do what is right for them despite the consequences to the one you're showing loyalty to.

 

[-4ZURE-]

Hubert's entire point is he is meant to act in Edelgard's best interest (as far as he believes, which is why he'll disobey her), he is not trying to be her friend he is trying to be her retainer. He acts with pragmatic cruelty in her name as Edelgard is something of an idealist, especially in her own route where Byleth keeps her coldness in check, considering she wants to upheaval an entire society into something entirely different in what she considers more fair.

He is basically her employee and Edelgard is a boss trying to be his friend and confidant, Hubert responds to these attempts with effectively "Lets keep our relationship professional only". Hubert believes that Edelgard should ultimately care about herself and the world she is trying to make over wasting time with him. Hubert has basically attempted to give up his own personal goals, whatever those might have been, in his ultimate focus on making Edelgard's vision a reality. Lets use a different game to explain this. In FE7 does Eliwood really know anything about Markus or what he wants? Not at all, because Eliwood is Markus' liege and nothing more. What about Oswin to Hector? Oswin actively lies to Hector because he is following orders. These characters are just the retainers of less morally questionable figures which is why they seem different then Hubert, when really they aren't. Hubert is holding back his personal ambitions to the point where his personal ambitions might as well be Edelgard's ambitions. Hubert is overall just a loyal retainer of a leader with a questionable plan using questionable (but very pragmatic) methods.

This is not a sign that Edelgard's leadership sucks to me, it is a sign of the amount of loyalty that she has fostered within Hubert that he'll throw away anything and everything for her. How much that speaks to her character is up to interpretation I suppose as I don't remember their past being very interesting except that Hubert found that his father was a traitorous backstabber and ultimately acts the opposite by being as loyal as he can be. Part of loyalty isn't just about doing what someone says, it is about having the willingness to do what is right for them despite the consequences to the one you're showing loyalty to.

I can see your point. So I will leave a like.

My base was going off of the questionable/controversial leadership of Edelgard. I do not believe I said her leadership sucks, more just questionable. As for what I mean by questionable, it is more based on morality than anything. Hubert‘s actions kinda float around a grey area as he seems more than willing to splatter some blood. Heck, he even seems to enjoy it. Him and TWSITD being allies are major red flags towards El and her ideals, or at least her way of going about them. The original post this is going off of was a discussion about why she is controversial/has such a rabid fan base. The point was that many fans overlook this aspect or say these things are completely justified.

As a retainer Hubert is great, but his actions do reflect poorly on El, something mentioned in the C support as she is afraid of having so much blood on her hands, so Hubert does it now. As a player, the fact that Hubert is taking on her death toll is a bit concerning as to if Edelgard can really be seen as the hero.

Does this explain it? I think this conversation has kinda gone past the context that started it. Originally, the Hubert critique came off a mention from @NerdShamer.

You left out some of the more shady crap, like how Hubert is actively enabling her and Ferdinand isn't criticizing her like an prime minister should. But then again, Duke Aegir is an asshole, so who cares?

I thought Ferdinand did criticize her. Then again, I think that was the A support, so overall Ferdinand was left in the dark about every action, so what more could he do? As for Hubert, that dude is like a legit murderer. The man hires hitmen and reviles at the idea of killing people, making him extremely shady company that Edelgard for some reason places trust in. Made more weird by the fact that he disobeys her constantly to pull underhand tactics.

Also, forgot to bring up the fact that she never tries to reason with the other houses or really her own. Anyone remember the scene from Remire where the Flame Emperor asks Byleth and class to join. No matter what you say, she will automatically default to going alone. She pulls a whole “you are lying” shtick if you say you want to help, proving how absolutely unreasonable she is as she could have had Claude or Dimitri’s help.

Point is, Edelgard is controversial because the people she surrounds herself with are actively terrible, yet she places a pretty high level of trust in them. It makes it hard to really justify her in many cases.

 

[Zeke Von Genbu]

I can see your point. So I will leave a like.

My base was going off of the questionable/controversial leadership of Edelgard. I do not believe I said her leadership sucks, more just questionable. As for what I mean by questionable, it is more based on morality than anything. Hubert‘s actions kinda float around a grey area as he seems more than willing to splatter some blood. Heck, he even seems to enjoy it. Him and TWSITD being allies are major red flags towards El and her ideals, or at least her way of going about them. The original post this is going off of was a discussion about why she is controversial/has such a rabid fan base. The point was that many fans overlook this aspect or say these things are completely justified.

As a retainer Hubert is great, but his actions do reflect poorly on El, something mentioned in the C support as she is afraid of having so much blood on her hands, so Hubert does it now. As a player, the fact that Hubert is taking on her death toll is a bit concerning as to if Edelgard can really be seen as the hero.

Does this explain it? I think this conversation has kinda gone past the context that started it. Originally, the Hubert critique came off a mention from @NerdShamer.



Point is, Edelgard is controversial because the people she surrounds herself with are actively terrible, yet she places a pretty high level of trust in them. It makes it hard to really justify her in many cases.

I'm of the opinion that her allying with the mole people is just her way of playing 4D chess to drag them out of hiding and destroy them herself by knowing fully what they can do, it a means to force them to come out because otherwise they'll just go back underground and wait for her to die out and try something else. I've always held the belief that if Edelgard just did nothing, then nothing positive will be done. I've said it twice across this thread, this war forces change in a more controlled matter then whatever other fully orchestrated event occurs with a new figure head that might have less then ideal intentions then Edelgard.

The issue is we know almost fuck all about this faction or what they did or even really told her. It is all so vague and barely explained that this whole shadow war just kind of sucks. Maybe if we got DLC to actually expand on that, but we didn't and we probably won't get any. They come off as ungodly powerful with their orbital death lasers that can blow up fortresses in one scene, yet are drooling idiots that get beaten by school children in a different scene. It is so inconsistent that they just look bad. That is why I strongly believe this should have been Edelgard's game as she has by far the most potential. So to me her siding with the mole people isn't a sleight to her, the question of "can she actually beat them" is a different concern but her intent isn't to be their loyal lap dog.

I don't consider Hubert that terrible, just pragmatic to an extreme and because this whole thing is morally questionable then his actions by extension come off as questionable. It is a matter of if you believe if the ends justify the means. Do you believe Fodlan would end up better without the war? Would change occur without a war? Does Edelgard have any reason to believe it will?

Seteth is the closest to a reasonable person in this entire scenario with the church that is approachable, knowledgable, sympathetic to the issues, and could actually explain anything. The issue is that he sides with Rhea who can come off as a power triper that has abused her near immortality to take advantage of humanity. He himself also falls into the near immortal category and his mostly unquestionable loyalty to Rhea, he gives her some minor shit in regards to Byleth but he doesn't really go against her at all, so it is really hard to imagine that Edelgard could see reason to talk to him. Edelgard does have to maintain appearances and asking too many questions can be seen as dangerous especially if she reveals her hand too early, so it is arguably best to just assume Seteth is just as much her enemy as Rhea even if objectively that is very wrong.

The thing about all of this is that we as players know so much more information then everyone else, we have the gift of foresight, seeing scenes in such a way that no one else could see, seeing tropes play out that no fictional character can ever realize exist, and access to 4 different time lines that no one else can know or ever will know. So Edelgard's war looks smooth brain drooling retard tier when you look at everything, but that is not what matters, it is what the world looks like as of chapter 11 (or earlier as this might have moved too far along to stop much earlier) and if Edelgard from her limited perspective as a character can see a better option.

It is unreasonable to expect that anyone acts completely optimal and knows everything, everyone is running around with half information and full on emotion. Rhea thinks Edelgard wants to start a cult of personality and maliciously rule Fodlan which isn't correct, Dimitri thinks Edelgard killed his family which he learns is wrong, and Edelgard thinks Rhea is a power tripper that is using her power to abuse humanity. This last one is at best a half truth as Rhea uses her power for her own selfish ends but these ends don't inherently abuse humanity. These are all thoughts that these characters feel, yes we as the audience know they're wrong, that doesn't make them invalid which is part of the tragedy.

tl;dr Edelgard is alright, not my favorite, I can respect her drive and I get why she goes as far as she does. I just wish she was done more justice despite being the most central character to this entire conflict. Mole people are written like ass and drag the whole conflict down. I'm also autistic for typing this whole essay.

 

[-4ZURE-]

Edelgard does have to maintain appearances and asking too many questions can be seen as dangerous especially if she reveals her hand too early, so it is arguably best to just assume Seteth is just as much her enemy as Rhea even if objectively that is very wrong.

The annoying part is that she constantly breaks character around Byleth and asks questions that go against the church. I get Seteth is more “in the church”, but her whole secret thing falls apart when she starts speaking to Byleth. It also makes no sense why she does not try to lead on classmates like she does with Byleth. Claude is just as much a newcomer as Byleth, so why not go for him? She already took Lorenz.

Seteth is the closest to a reasonable person in this entire scenario with the church that is approachable, knowledgable, sympathetic to the issues, and could actually explain anything.

Claude is pretty much this as well. Dimitri also has the same level-headedness in the beginning and end. Rhea and El are the only ones who seem unwilling to change.

The thing about all of this is that we as players know so much more information then everyone else, we have the gift of foresight, seeing scenes in such a way that no one else could see, seeing tropes play out that no fictional character can ever realize exist, and access to 4 different time lines that no one else can know or ever will know. So Edelgard's war looks smooth brain drooling retard tier when you look at everything, but that is not what matters, it is what the world looks like as of chapter 11 (or earlier as this might have moved too far along to stop much earlier) and if Edelgard from her limited perspective as a character can see a better option.

This makes the story interesting and you are right. I think the big issues come in when the clearly rushed portions of the game rear their ugly head. I said this earlier, but Edelgard does try to get your support in all routes after Remire, only to go against you no matter what you say. She looks brain dead in these scenes as she could have had a whole class and Byleth work with her so that she maybe does not need TWSITD, but instead rejects because...

If you are going to say no regardless, why ask the question?

It is unreasonable to expect that anyone acts completely optimal and knows everything, everyone is running around with half information and full on emotion. Rhea thinks Edelgard wants to start a cult of personality and maliciously rule Fodlan which isn't correct, Dimitri thinks Edelgard killed his family which he learns is wrong, and Edelgard thinks Rhea is a power tripper that is using her power to abuse humanity. This last one is at best a half truth as Rhea uses her power for her own selfish ends but these ends don't inherently abuse humanity. These are all thoughts that these characters feel, yes we as the audience know they're wrong, that doesn't make them invalid which is part of the tragedy.

Love how Claude is not mentioned. He really is sort of just there.

Also, do we actually ever get Rhea’s thoughts. The woman is MIA for half the game in every route besides Edelgard’s. I just remember the “muhhh mother...“ and nothing else.

tl;dr Edelgard is alright, not my favorite, I can respect her drive and I get why she goes as far as she does. I just wish she was done more justice despite being the most central character to this entire conflict. Mole people are written like ass and drag the whole conflict down. I'm also autistic for typing this whole essay.

The game should have just been a war story between Dimitri and Edelgard. Edelgard could be interesting, but they drop all conflict with Dimitri with some contrived amnesia. Having a story of two friends/love interests as kids realize their separation placed them on opposing sides would be a cool story. I think the detail with the knife in AM was such a perfect set up. Dimitri literally created his biggest monster. I get the want for Edelgard to be the main force, but Dimitri clearly had more time put in and has so much to make El interesting that I believe both should stay. Claude can go because, what does he really add? Fun character, but he has no history or importance in this conflict.

 

[Zeke Von Genbu]

The annoying part is that she constantly breaks character around Byleth and asks questions that go against the church. I get Seteth is more “in the church”, but her whole secret thing falls apart when she starts speaking to Byleth. It also makes no sense why she does not try to lead on classmates like she does with Byleth. Claude is just as much a newcomer as Byleth, so why not go for him? She already took Lorenz.

A few things.

Byleth doesn't know what Edelgard is ultimately intending to do even with all their scenes it is just really vague hints and Byleth has much less attachment to the church then anyone else in the story except arguably Claude, hell Byleth barely knows about the religion to begin with so Byleth has much less attachment to its teachings unlike Seteth. Seteth is relevant not just because of his attachment, but because he can clear up misunderstandings like why Edelgard has the wrong idea about Nemesis. Many people cite "Why doesn't Edelgard talk to Seteth about anything, he could explain everything! He is sympathetic because of his support with Ingrid so it'll work.". Yes in a perfect world this is objectively true, but this is not a perfect world and Seteth is implied to be smart enough to get a good read people so it is easy for Edelgard to over show her hand and for Seteth to possibly report her for heresy. So staying away from him is the safe move, and safety is of the highest importance when you're effectively within enemy territory and everyone can turn on you in an instant.

Claude, lets be real, comes off as a rat and the type who could sell you out if given the chance on the surface level in the early stages. Claude does very little to seem trust worthy, a good person maybe but not trust worthy of anything important. Claude also ultimately wants power and political might to get what you wants from the world, Claude would at least consider selling out Edelgard (especially if he doesn't believe her way is right) if Edelgard tried confiding anything important to Claude. Especially if Claude thinks he can leverage the church to get him what he wants. Claude purposefully tries to not seem trust worthy with her because the writers want to play up the "Schemer" side of him for the audience which means that Edelgard shouldn't trust Claude with anything important.

She takes Lorenz through coercion because the empire can run up his father's territory very easily, Lorenz doesn't side with her because he actually believes in her.

Dimitri has good values in theory and seems like a good guy, but Dimitri's country has implied strong loyalty to the church due to the implication that it gave Faergaus its independence in some flavor text that I vaguely remember when it split off from Edelgard's empire who's name escapes me. Dimitri would swear his loyalty the moment it got attacked, it is called the "Holy Kingdom" for a reason. If I remember correct their is a line that Faergaus has more attachment to the church then the other nations as well. So if that is true, or perceived true, then Edelgard has even less reason to trust Dimitri to keep her secrets and not rat her out for heresy.

Byleth is a true and honest 3rd party who doesn't have some perceived other motive and doesn't come off as untrustworthy because Byleth is a good boy/girl that can do no wrong.

This makes the story interesting and you are right. I think the big issues come in when the clearly rushed portions of the game rear their ugly head. I said this earlier, but Edelgard does try to get your support in all routes after Remire, only to go against you no matter what you say. She looks brain dead in these scenes as she could have had a whole class and Byleth work with her so that she maybe does not need TWSITD, but instead rejects because...

If you are going to say no regardless, why ask the question?

Lets look at this from Edelgard's perspective. You are about to make yourself enemy of an entire religion and arguably the entire rest of the continent, your one confidant suddenly obtains divine power and appears almost the same as your enemy due to the hair change. Do you honestly think Byleth being this newly divine being will side against the church? Byleth appears as if they're going to side with the church due to their change due to their new found attachment to it via their transformation. I think Edelgard even mentions this post time skip at some point when she explained how she can't believe they Byleth chose her.

As for her classmates, I kind of blame that on IS not bothering to make a new Edelgard only map for chapter 11 because that'd take work, but I suppose when your confidant (Byleth) that you've trying to work towards seemingly abandons you your trust is kind of at a low so you just say "fuck it" and just go in. It is impulsive and dumb, but it isn't a stretch to say Edelgard has trust issues (unless your name is Byleth because uwu waifu).

That is my take anyway. Also she'd need TWSITD anyway even if she had all her class + Byleth, as without their forces her army can't survive the church + whoever else joins them. Do you really think one class + Byleth bests a mole people army with dark magic (plus whatever soldiers her uncle controls within the empire) and who the hell knows what else in a full scale war? In addition she wants to force them to fight so she can weigh in how she can best them when she turns on them later. She needs them in the war somehow to draw them out of hiding.

Love how Claude is not mentioned. He really is sort of just there.

Also, do we actually ever get Rhea’s thoughts. The woman is MIA for half the game in every route besides Edelgard’s. I just remember the “muhhh mother...“ and nothing else.

Claude is not a very emotional person, so their is less for him to misunderstand due to emotions. That does mean he does feel just sort of there, he does pick up that him and Edelgard aren't really that different.

Rhea and Seteth mention just before chapter 12's map starts that Edelgard is likely trying to start her own fellowship to replace the church instead of trying to dismantle it entirely like Edelgard wants. Seteth in fact gets really pissy in chapter 13 on the church route, if you pick the option where you wonder if Edelgard had a reason to start this war, by saying that she just wants to selfishly rule the world and act like the church dindu nuffin.

The game should have just been a war story between Dimitri and Edelgard. Edelgard could be interesting, but they drop all conflict with Dimitri with some contrived amnesia. Having a story of two friends/love interests as kids realize their separation placed them on opposing sides would be a cool story. I think the detail with the knife in AM was such a perfect set up. Dimitri literally created his biggest monster. I get the want for Edelgard to be the main force, but Dimitri clearly had more time put in and has so much to make El interesting that I believe both should stay. Claude can go because, what does he really add? Fun character, but he has no history or importance in this conflict.

When you can just copy paste maps endlessly, which I pointed out earlier in this thread, it is very easy to see Dimitri having more effort. Dimitri's entire route is almost as borrowed is the other 2 routes except Edelgard's, while Edelgard's has to be specifically made for her and her alone. I suppose you can argue less animated cutscenes, but most those cutscenes get used at least twice somewhere so I don't consider that much of anything. The no real reunion cutscene is weird though.

Imo they're all about as half assed, Edelgard's just looks the worst because it is shorter, but when you copy pasta maps endlessly down to unit placement and chapter order then you don't get much credit for having more chapters imo. Edelgard's is strikingly bad because we need the most information from her side to make her entire war more unquestionably understandable.

If Dimitri still exists in my ideal 3 houses, more like 2 houses I guess if Claude is useless (which he mostly is), then fine. I just want it to more focus on Edelgard and that means we need a non route game instead of a multi route game. Different endings and extra chapters based on some choices you make inside/outside the maps like FE7 is fine, but no big dramatic route shifts like Fates or 3 houses.

 

[Scarlett Johansson]

How long before Joe Zieja gets allegations if he hasn't been cancelled already

 

[Zeke Von Genbu]

How long before Joe Zieja gets allegations if he hasn't been cancelled already

Considering Joe seems to be a decent good looking guy instead of a bald egg shaped viking, any day now if he goes to conventions often enough.

 

[Scarlett Johansson]

Considering Joe seems to be a decent good looking guy instead of a bald egg shaped viking, any day now if he goes to conventions often enough.

That's the problem. He's so charming and genuinely seems like a good person but you know people will drag him for formerly serving Murrica and also something a few months ago happened to him on Twitter and he got dragged. I can't remember what

 

[Zeke Von Genbu]

That's the problem. He's so charming and genuinely seems like a good person but you know people will drag him for formerly serving Murrica and also something a few months ago happened to him on Twitter and he got dragged. I can't remember what

He made an Aladdin joke using Claude's real name (which sounded similar) which was considered racist and indefensible. But yeah Joe will get cancelled even if he has consensual sex with a legal adult, especially if alcohol is involved, at a convention because someone will just say she got raped instead.

 

[Lodoss Warrior]

Nah man Claude is a pretty fleshed out and emotional character. It's just not as in your face as Dimitri or Edelgard. I just think that just makes his character all the better.

But GD was my first choice, so perhaps I just prefer the outsider's perspective to a messy personal conflict.

 

[Zeke Von Genbu]

Nah man Claude is a pretty fleshed out and emotional character. It's just not as in your face as Dimitri or Edelgard. I just think that just makes his character all the better.

But GD was my first choice, so perhaps I just prefer the outsider's perspective to a messy personal conflict.

Compared to the walking trauma PTSD nightmares of the other 3, Claude is pretty stoic. He's not dull with no emotion or anything, but he doesn't really get all whiped up into a frenzy and does crazy shit due to his emotions so their is less room for his emotions to really cloud his judgement to disasterous degrees like the other 3. GD was my first choice too.

 

[Lodoss Warrior]

Compared to the walking trauma PTSD nightmares of the other 3, Claude is pretty stoic. He's not dull with no emotion or anything, but he doesn't really get all wiped up into a frenzy and does crazy shit due to his emotions so their is less room for his emotions to really cloud his judgement to disasterous degrees like the other 3. GD was my first choice too.

His biggest mistakes in routes outside his own is his outward stoicism clouds a latent fear of rocking the boat or sticking his (and his allies') neck(s) out to properly deal with Edelgard's aggression. Outside of his immensely stupid and Out-of-Character moment in Azure Moon's Gronder Field, the reason he ultimately doesn't matter outside his route is because he'd rather have he and his friends survive by running away than fight an uphill battle that needs to be fought--so when Dimitri offers an actual alliance, he'd rather fuck off and stay safe in Almyra.

He only really grows a pair in VW.

 

[-4ZURE-]

Lets look at this from Edelgard's perspective. You are about to make yourself enemy of an entire religion and arguably the entire rest of the continent, your one confidant suddenly obtains divine power and appears almost the same as your enemy due to the hair change. Do you honestly think Byleth being this newly divine being will side against the church? Byleth appears as if they're going to side with the church due to their change due to their new found attachment to it via their transformation. I think Edelgard even mentions this post time skip at some point when she explained how she can't believe they Byleth chose her.

Remire happens before the transformation.
Honestly the whole scene is confusing. Byleth speaks to Jeralt when suddenly the Flame Emperor shows up. The Flame Emperor assures Byleth that she has different objectives to that of Solon. Afterwards she asks you to join. In the conversation, you can actually say yes to teaming up and fighting TWSITD, yet Edelgard just says no and storms off. What was the point?! At that point in the story, there was no reason for her to do that, Byleth did not have God powers yet to show any church affiliation.

This scene being included just rubs me the wrong way. It seems like it should have been a jumping off point, but it is just nothing.

That is my take anyway. Also she'd need TWSITD anyway even if she had all her class + Byleth, as without their forces her army can't survive the church + whoever else joins them. Do you really think one class + Byleth bests a mole people army with dark magic (plus whatever soldiers her uncle controls within the empire) and who the hell knows what else in a full scale war? In addition she wants to force them to fight so she can weigh in how she can best them when she turns on them later. She needs them in the war somehow to draw them out of hiding.

I can see this, I just get annoyed when the game flat out says there may be another way, but does not commit. Then again, options in 3H are terrible as most give an illusion of choice only for a character to say no. I am still mad about the Church route not allowing for a team up with the Kingdom to fight El at Gronder. They give the option, but Seteth says no regardless.

When you can just copy paste maps endlessly, which I pointed out earlier in this thread, it is very easy to see Dimitri having more effort. Dimitri's entire route is almost as borrowed is the other 2 routes except Edelgard's, while Edelgard's has to be specifically made for her and her alone. I suppose you can argue less animated cutscenes, but most those cutscenes get used at least twice somewhere so I don't consider that much of anything. The no real reunion cutscene is weird though.

The lack of polish strikes most players with Edelgard. She only gets 1/3 the amount of cutscenes as other routes and is half the length. I feel like her route was also supposed to have more seeing as the defeat of TWSITD was absent.

If Dimitri still exists in my ideal 3 houses, more like 2 houses I guess if Claude is useless (which he mostly is), then fine. I just want it to more focus on Edelgard and that means we need a non route game instead of a multi route game. Different endings and extra chapters based on some choices you make inside/outside the maps like FE7 is fine, but no big dramatic route shifts like Fates or 3 houses.

Dimitri is the most coherent and easy to understand house tbh. The lack of focus on mole people and church history in favor of genuine character growth is better in my opinion. I would personally want a two route story that focuses on him and El as the game was at its high points when it did just that. If anything, they can really just clean things up and make the characters more emotional.

my changes would be:
1. Have Dimitri lose it because of El’s affiliation with TWSITD and not a made up action she did. Having him feel betrayed by having family work with the murders of his parents and Duscar would be just as impactful if not moreso.
2. No amnesia for Edelgard. Her amnesia/ forgetting of Dimitri is trash and keeps things from being interesting. If she had to confront the man who inspired her and originally was friends with her, it would make for a bigger climax. Have her fight with Dimitri later on about how he does not understand her goals and how TWISTD is a necessity, while Dimitri argues over their ethics and killing of their family. It would also make for a more interesting Flame Emperor dynamic as she tries to lure Dimitri to her side early on, but can never give away her full plan out of distrust, causing him to not join as he cannot get over her allies.

IDK. I would just hate to see Dimitri go to waste. He has every reason to be great if they just had more time.

 

[AzuraAquafina]

After those lines Hubert replies to El and starts with two things that have nothing to do with emotions:
”Very well. You have me beaten. I will tell you as much as I am able. From the assassins I've eliminated, to the gold I've spent on bribes...to the identity of the one I love.”

If Edelgard just wanted him to open up on his feelings, then why start his secrets reveal with elimination and bribes? Those things have nothing to do with personal feelings or stories, those are connected to his secretive behaviors in building her path. These are all clearly things Edelgard is unaware of and now getting to know because she asked. Yes, the exchange ends with his true love, but it seems El’s issue is a mixture of both of our points, she hates the secrets kept from her whether they are personal or based on this scarlet path.

Even then, the first two statements could easily refer to the moral-quandaries he's expected to go through, not him fessing up to Edelgard. The point of the support chain is Hubert gradually opening his human self to his liege even if he believes he shouldn't.

I must have misspoke and not gotten the point across clearly. My point was that of an audience member, not Edelgard. An audience member would likely see Edelgard’s leadership as shoty and question who she places trust in. If TWSITD was not already a red flag, than the one who stays with her being someone who blantantly disregards orders (see Ferdinand-Hubert B support) and takes a pleasure in killing should probably be the ultimate red flag. As someone following her, her judgement on what makes good allies is questionable at best. Though I will admit, Hubert really cleans himself up by act two and is a pretty good second leader.

I am guessing you are referring to this by the way;

I will admit that I may be looking at things wrong. I know Edelgard is a complex character that requires atleast a 1000IQ to comprehend with all the 4D chess in the background. (kidding of course.) I would be interested to see a response or if I completely missed what you were saying at one point. But from what I have seen so far, I think both stances have a place.

In regards to Hubert, it's only a red flag if you take what his impression gave you over what his actions serve and function. Death Knight at least is a loose cannon with his weird split personality and whatnot. And her relation to TWSITD is supposed to evoke Arvis and his relation to the Loptyr sect. Although, TWSITD is just a poor man's Loptyr sect and the Loptyr sect is a poor man's Laguz/Branded ones/Zoans.

 

[-4ZURE-]

Even then, the first two statements could easily refer to the moral-quandaries he's expected to go through, not him fessing up to Edelgard. The point of the support chain is Hubert gradually opening his human self to his liege even if he believes he shouldn't.


In regards to Hubert, it's only a red flag if you take what his impression gave you over what his actions serve and function. Death Knight at least is a loose cannon with his weird split personality and whatnot. And her relation to TWSITD is supposed to evoke Arvis and his relation to the Loptyr sect. Although, TWSITD is just a poor man's Loptyr sect and the Loptyr sect is a poor man's Laguz/Branded ones/Zoans.

I’ll agree to this, no point going on hours about a video game story.

 

[Alexander Thaut]

Mangs getting this shit that he did was kinda hilarious because he wasn't even good at edgey humor. He kinda just tended to sperg out and say random ass edgey/dark/whatever bullshit.

HIs server is/was run by some sperg named Halos who has a blacklist for all member of the fandom he deems bad. Halos also pretty much runs Mekkahs server and passes the blacklist to every major FE discord server, be it Starlight, FE Universe, or what have you. The FE community is full of people on the major, major servers being power-junkies to the point that you have to actively search for the ones that are chill. Hell, Mangs himself was just a weird bald fucker who's shit people have been A-logging online for a while. I can't locate the tweets or w/e that had these screenshots, but he's described 13 year old girls as `having potential` and has allegations of grooming.

Granted, almost all of the Fire Emblem Youtubers are kinda either bland or just lowkey scummy. The only consistently decent one seems to be Mekkah, solely because he's smart enough to stay relatively anonymous. (dondon to a lesser extent too)

 

[JamusActimus]

Mangs getting this shit that he did was kinda hilarious because he wasn't even good at edgey humor. He kinda just tended to sperg out and say random ass edgey/dark/whatever bullshit.

HIs server is/was run by some sperg named Halos who has a blacklist for all member of the fandom he deems bad. Halos also pretty much runs Mekkahs server and passes the blacklist to every major FE discord server, be it Starlight, FE Universe, or what have you. The FE community is full of people on the major, major servers being power-junkies to the point that you have to actively search for the ones that are chill. Hell, Mangs himself was just a weird bald fucker who's shit people have been A-logging online for a while. I can't locate the tweets or w/e that had these screenshots, but he's described 13 year old girls as `having potential` and has allegations of grooming.

Granted, almost all of the Fire Emblem Youtubers are kinda either bland or just lowkey scummy. The only consistently decent one seems to be Mekkah, solely because he's smart enough to stay relatively anonymous. (dondon to a lesser extent too)

Look at thoses spergs

https://youtu.be/mOUxcmsO6M4?t=1231

Look how confortable they are near Magnus "Serial Edgy Rapist" Mangs.
They are a bunch of hypocrites and mangs got screwed by an attention whore.
Mangs is an autistic fat bald retard I can forgive him for being a creep.
Thoses others non autistic hypocrites are quite unfortunate tho.

I agree tho Mekkah is quite an anti cow by being neutral and level headed

 

[Alexander Thaut]

Look at thoses spergs

https://youtu.be/mOUxcmsO6M4?t=1231

View attachment 1470155

Look how confortable they are near Magnus "Serial Edgy Rapist" Mangs.
They are a bunch of hypocrites and mangs got screwed by an attention whore.
Mangs is an autistic fat bald retard I can forgive him for being a creep.
Thoses others non autistic hypocrites are quite unfortunate tho.

I agree tho Mekkah is quite an anti cow by being neutral and level headed

yeah they wanted to play the victim but it kinda looks weird when you have an adult woman basically saying "He persuaded me to get a room with him, just the two of us."

It's insanely funny how Chaz AND Ghast have white knighted this shitshow and tried to virtue signal. What's the statistics on male feminists turning out to be sexual assaulters or etc.?

Furthermore, you telling me that all these adults in a niche FEtuber category are/were afraid of Mangs? Dude was an idiot lmfao.

 

[Zeke Von Genbu]

yeah they wanted to play the victim but it kinda looks weird when you have an adult woman basically saying "He persuaded me to get a room with him, just the two of us."

It's insanely funny how Chaz AND Ghast have white knighted this shitshow and tried to virtue signal. What's the statistics on male feminists turning out to be sexual assaulters or etc.?

Furthermore, you telling me that all these adults in a niche FEtuber category are/were afraid of Mangs? Dude was an idiot lmfao.

Chaz got sexual allegations about 2 weeks ago and from my time keeping an eye on that mess one of them stuck. This was because Chaz didn't really defend himself, besides saying that the girl was a crazy fan girl and alleging that it was consensual despite not explaining one set of messages where the woman claimed that Chaz kept trying to guilt her into sleeping in the same hotel room as him. It was a whole mess because anti Mangs trio of Lucky Crit, Goose, and Chaz tried to dance around and deflect the allegation to the point where people were calling them victim blamers. It got so bad that Ghast switched gears and called Chaz out and Goose was whining about how Chaz's allegations were "stealing her victimhood".

Chaz eventually back peddled with something to the effect of "Believe all women doesn't literally mean believe all accusations." after his initial response to one of the claims when he called the accusation a joke on twitter. In the one that stuck, Chaz actually had sex with the person and badgered them to sleep with him in a hotel unlike Mangs who as best as I remembered "just" dry humped a woman while drunk.

People eventually learned in this whole mess that the Mangs allegations were one big op on Discord set up by Chaz, Lucky Crit, Goose, Ghast, Pavise, and a few other people who's names escape me. One of them ran that whole "FETruth" twitter pretending to be an impartial source and posted Mangs "alt right" opinions.