Fire Emblem series

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Flaming Insignias said:
Early on in the thread, I described Arvis as an almost preemptive deconstruction of Edelgard, with his effort to create a better world by conquering the continent going to hell as the dark cult he allied with proceeded to usurp him while the conquered territories started resisting the rather harsh occupation. I stand by that point, and feel that people would make the connection and be less obsessed with Edelgard was a dude. You rarely see people say that Arvis was completely justified, especially in regard to the Belhalla Barbecue Party, while even Edelgard directly trying to kill her classmates seems to be considered justifiable for her fans.
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I would argue that Arvis is a genuinely good person misguided by malicious and dangerous forces. Whereas Edelgard is a petulant child with too much political power.
 
Berrakh said:
Can’t imagine a Monarch saying that?
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An lot of them are like that, but most would have been more articulate than just saying "this church have been lying to us for centuries" or "our society WILL become an meritocracy!" and provide an few (occasionally staged) examples of why everyone should suddenly agree to die for them.

But to be fair, everyone hates Duke Aegir; so that's one example. But as for the church, it's kind of hard to find an example as to why the average person should actually hate them aside from the occasional execution that was usually justified.
 
NerdShamer said:
An lot of them are like that, but most would have been more articulate than just saying "this church have been lying to us for centuries" or "our society WILL become an meritocracy!" and provide an few (occasionally staged) examples of why everyone should suddenly agree to die for them.

But to be fair, everyone hates Duke Aegir; so that's one example. But as for the church, it's kind of hard to find an example as to why the average person should actually hate them aside from the occasional execution that was usually justified.
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You could construe this as petulant too with that attitude.
 
I feel like Edelgard's biggest problem is that by making her declare war on the church because of experiments that where done by the molemen she ends up looking like a retard at best and a schizo at worst, and how her ending doesn't have her tackle the molemen directly, as well as the way she tries to justify herself with "oh the agarthans fucked me up but if the church didn't prop up crests it would have never happened" doesn't help her cause. Maybe having the church be the culprits on Edelgard's experiments would have made her look more reasonable? but that would have made dirtied the look of the church (despite anyone who isn't a rheafag being able to see that Rhea is a literal motherfucker who let crests become the way to rule despite hating them, and who everyone casually ignores was willing to personality kill Byleth just so she could resurrect her own mother who explicitly asked not to be resurrected)
 
Berrakh said:
Edelgard is obviously not a petulant child though. They tried to make a complex villain and the story around her fell short of the ambition.

For one thing Edelgard plotted to take power. Like an adult!
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That's not really a convincing argument for showing a character's maturity.
Peru oso donas said:
I feel like Edelgard's biggest problem is that by making her declare war on the church because of experiments that where done by the molemen she ends up looking like a retard at best and a schizo at worst, and how her ending doesn't have her tackle the molemen directly, as well as the way she tries to justify herself with "oh the agarthans fucked me up but if the church didn't prop up crests it would have never happened" doesn't help her cause. Maybe having the church be the culprits on Edelgard's experiments would have made her look more reasonable? but that would have made dirtied the look of the church (despite anyone who isn't a rheafag being able to see that Rhea is a literal motherfucker who let crests become the way to rule despite hating them, and who everyone casually ignores was willing to personality kill Byleth just so she could resurrect her own mother who explicitly asked not to be resurrected)
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What's more, if you take a cursory glance at almost any one of your class mates, all of them hate crests. The next generation already wants to significantly diminish their role in society. It's pretty reasonable to assume that the normal passage of time will remedy the situation without the need for war.
 
AWarmToiletSeat said:
What's more, if you take a cursory glance at almost any one of your class mates, all of them hate crests
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It's mainly true, but it ranges from actual hatred to some degree of contempt.
AWarmToiletSeat said:
It's pretty reasonable to assume that the normal passage of time will remedy the situation without the need for war
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Yeah, but that would be kind of boring from an narrative standpoint. But the games could have used another rando preaching about how fucked up society is by relying on an bit of an holy blood that boosts one's combat prowess to justify one's effectiveness as an paper-pusher
 
AWarmToiletSeat said:
No, it isn't. Lashing out at the world you live in is the polar opposite of maturity.
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Lashing out by definition is a brief and impulsive action. This is not.

We started off wondering how Edeltards could be so delusional then we end up humoring someone so dovish he thinks force is verboten. Truly, the two genders for the Fire Emblem fandom: All is Permitted if You Have a 5 Year Plan versus Your Ambitions End Where My Feelings Begin.
 
Berrakh said:
Kids just issue demands, adults leave their opponents with no options.
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The latter isn't usually true unless we're talking about someone who escaped the psych ward. Or they're trying to be "pragmatic." Realistically speaking, nobody wants to start an long-term war over religious differences or some shit because it's fucking expensive. Not that it had stopped anyone from trying; but it usually came at an price

But in the magical realm where an teenager is entrusted with the well-being of an country, stuff like the long-term consequences of declaring war out of an childhood grudge isn't something that gets addressed that often. If anything, it kind of raises the question of why she didn't go after.Team Slither, first.


Berrakh said:
Lashing out by definition is a brief and impulsive action.
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Yes, but then you have Dimitri running his murderhobo skit for an few years and never snapping out of it.
 
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NerdShamer said:
The latter isn't usually true unless we're talking about someone who escaped the psych ward. Or they're trying to be "pragmatic."
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Isn’t usually true. Shit, you think Imperial Succession might be an unusual circumstance?
You guys are fucking goofy if you think adults can never force their way without losing their maturity.

We only care about these kids because they’re in unusual circumstances which permit direct actions, instead of filing a formal complaint to get a hearing in 6 months before a magistrate like in the boring real world.
 
Berrakh said:
Kids just issue demands, adults leave their opponents with no options.
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Berrakh said:
You guys are fucking goofy if you think adults can never force their way without losing their maturity.
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What?

I don't think an "adult" even considers things in the perspective you're trying to frame this as. Adults just... Do what they do. "Maturity" isn't exactly or always predicated upon decisiveness.

Rather, wouldn't it be more mature to realize there's several options that can be considered to accomplish something and that, occasionally, compromises are necessary?
 
Gravemind said:
What?

I don't think an "adult" even considers things in the perspective you're trying to frame this as. Adults just... Do what they do. "Maturity" isn't exactly or always predicated upon decisiveness.

Rather, wouldn't it be more mature to realize there's several options that can be considered to accomplish something and that, occasionally, compromises are necessary?
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I guess I have to ask what you think we’re talking about here. The question is not if Edelgard’s conquest was Nice or Good but if it was meant to be seen as a rational form of cruelty. And it is. That the game bungles its presentation is a separate matter because it does try to depict Edelgard as serious and not a trifling child with no logical point of view.

You can disagree with that but just disagree with that instead of arguing that she’s super mean for using her power to begin with.
 
Berrakh said:
I guess I have to ask what you think we’re talking about here. The question is not if Edelgard’s conquest was Nice or Good but if it was meant to be seen as a rational form of cruelty. And it is. That the game bungles its presentation is a separate matter because it does try to depict Edelgard as serious and not a trifling child with no logical point of view.

You can disagree with that but just disagree with that instead of arguing that she’s super mean for using her power to begin with.
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I feel like the goalpost is shifting around here because this conversation started shifting away from Edelgard and turning towards debating the criteria for what defines maturity and "adulthood", and now you're trying to shift it back towards Edelgard after I've directly questioned what your concept of "maturity" is.

Like, that's the one thing I'm asking about. Just setting Edelgard things aside for a moment. Because you're giving these very definite characteristics as to what defines an "adult" and an "adult's" way of doing things, and it kind of sounds like you may have an inherently flawed concept as to what constitutes maturity.
 
AWarmToiletSeat said:
Never, not once, did I mention Dimitri. Why bring it up?
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Cuz, his entire arc has him lashing out against anyone who's affiliated with the empire and it's progressively getting worse every time he has his episodes.

Berrakh said:
We only care about these kids because they’re in unusual circumstances which permit direct actions, instead of filing a formal complaint to get a hearing in 6 months before a magistrate like in the boring real world
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Negotiation is an thing, along with varying degrees of isolationism. All,she had to do was denounce the church and fix her country's own problems. And probably try to bait Rhea into attacking her.


Gravemind said:
Rather, wouldn't it be more mature to realize there's several options that can be considered to accomplish something and that, occasionally, compromises are necessary?
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Well, that kind of pops up in 3 Copes. But that deal gets broken by Claude who might have been an little too paranoid when he made that decision.

Berrakh said:
The question is not if Edelgard’s conquest was Nice or Good but if it was meant to be seen as a rational form of cruelty. And it is.
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It's not exactly what I would call rational considering that her.options were to go along with Team Slither's plot to raze the church or to reveal them to Rhea and risked getting killed by both sides.



Berrakh said:
That the game bungles its presentation is a separate matter because it does try to depict Edelgard as serious and not a trifling child with no logical point of view.
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But she comes across as,extremely manipulative at the end of the day; even when she's left to her own devices


Gravemind said:
Because you're giving these very definite characteristics as to what defines an "adult" and an "adult's" way of doing things, and it kind of sounds like you may have an inherently flawed concept as to what constitutes maturity
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But then again, most of the blame falls on the writers, in a way. It's one thing to be groomed into waging an pointless war that's engineered to kill everyone; but it's another to kill off anyone who could potentially help you stop them unless you wanted to be the only one who comes out on top qfter.the dust.settles
 
Gravemind said:
I feel like the goalpost is shifting around here because this conversation started shifting away from Edelgard and turning towards debating the criteria for what defines maturity and "adulthood", and now you're trying to shift it back towards Edelgard after I've directly questioned what your concept of "maturity" is.

Like, that's the one thing I'm asking about. Just setting Edelgard things aside for a moment. Because you're giving these very definite characteristics as to what defines an "adult" and an "adult's" way of doing things, and it kind of sounds like you may have an inherently flawed concept as to what constitutes maturity.
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Taking action, especially difficult action, is a mark of maturity. Disagree if you like but let’s be clear: I didn’t bring up Maturity as a theme of debate, I just answered the terms set by someone else who was precluding anything “too aggressive” from the realm of psychology adulthood. So I was actually never suggesting an overly narrow set of criteria to be mature. And how I elected to dispute the matter was not criticized as a misunderstanding of his point so I must have framed the issue well enough.

Given how lost you seem to be here, why are you persisting? You haven’t shown me you have a real point to make.

NerdShamer said:
Negotiation is an thing, along with varying degrees of isolationism. All,she had to do was denounce the church and fix her country's own problems. And probably try to bait Rhea into attacking her
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One of the things that is made clear in White Clouds is that Rhea is not fond of negotiating with Church heretics. That’s why new players believe she’s evil in fact. A two-front war could have been inevitable if the Church manufactured some rationale to get Faerghus and Leicaster to attack the new tyrant empress who was conspiring with dark forces while at the sacred monastery grounds.
NerdShamer said:
It's not exactly what I would call rational considering that her.options were to go along with Team Slither's plot to raze the church or to reveal them to Rhea and risked getting killed by both sides.
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Perhaps my eyes deceive me here but it sounds like she chose the most rational option out of a selection of bad options.
NerdShamer said:
But she comes across as,extremely manipulative at the end of the day; even when she's left to her own devices
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We keep coming back to the same point over and over: nobody said she was being a paragon of niceness and cooperation.

I guess I’m getting pegged as an Edelgard fan even though I likened her to Sylvain and explained how bad I think Sylvain is as a character on the previous page.

Both have the same issue in fact: they’re not well-realized for what they’re trying to be and so don’t escape the gravitational pull of the cliches they’re cut from.
 
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