Well Intentioned
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You only really get a sense of it in his EX trial.
His motivations are fine, it's just conveyed really poorly.
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His motivations are fine, it's just conveyed really poorly.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2016
A lot of Hiroi’s writing in this game even outside of DT involves characters with daddy/mommy issues and parental abandonment. Almost every single big character introduced in DT’s msq was either abandoned by their parents and/or had daddy issues. There’s also two instances of a crazy woman falling in love with a male character and having his child that gets abandoned by one or both parents (Gulool Ja’s mom and Athena) It wasn’t too bad in Pandaemonium because the writing was fine and Athena was an amazing batshit insane villain and also it was just a raid series (and an optional one too.) DT on the other hand is an entire expansion of this and terrible writing and bad villains on top of it.
I take it he has daddy issues of his own and a bad history of dealing with crazy women. Isihkawa, Maehiro, Oda, and the other writers for this game aren’t 100% perfect but at least their writing doesn’t look like someone’s projecting all their personal issues and trauma into the game’s story and using it as a therapy diary.
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2019
Which is a shame because if it had been conveyed properly, he could've been a very compelling villain that a lot of people could relate to.
The simplest way to boil his entire character down would be to say he was just a spoiled brat with daddy issues, but you get a bigger glimpse into what's driving him to act like such a psycho during his trial along with some tiny, hard to spot crumbs along the way.
He was a miracle child prince who was born the son of a beloved King who united an entire continent under a single banner by traveling around, solving everyone's issues and finding a way for everyone to coexist. So from the get-go, there were high hopes for him and heavy expectations heaped onto him. Everyone expected him to be this amazing ruler who could even surpass his father. Having to live up to those expectations probably put a lot of pressure onto him to be what everyone thought he should be, instead of being who he wanted to be. If you're growing up and having people constantly tell you that you should be this and you should be that without giving any regard to your own autonomy, that can mess someone up mentally. Things started to get even more complicated when his dad decides to adopt 2 more kids into the family and suddenly, the perfect prince without equal now has 2 other "siblings" to compete with. 2 siblings that aren't even related to him by blood. Years of repressed jealousy and festering feelings of entitlement fostered by a lifetime of people telling you that you're expected to have everything builds up inside. Galool Ja Ja wasn't stupid. He could see what was going on with his son. But he was a fair ruler and wanted to give not only his own children a way to work themselves into greatness, but even others outside of his family. Hard work and understanding has more value than just using royal blood to lay claim to something that should honestly not just be given to anyone. I think Galool Ja Ja wanted Zoraal Ja to take lessons from the whole competition. He probably knew that he wouldn't win, but hoped that he'd at least grow somehow from the experience itself.
Unfortunately, it had the exact opposite effect. Zooral Ja was able to prove himself flawlessly in combat but when it came to more diplomatic stuff or things that required a softer hand, he failed miserably and it was a wake up call that he did not want to accept. Then it culminates into what he perceives is his biggest humiliation: getting his ass handed to him by a shade of his father. Not the real Galool Ja Ja. A phantom. Zoraal Ja could never defeat his father even as old, half dead. and weakened as he is. So when he fights a conjured imitation of his father in his prime, he's absolutely destroyed and mocked for his weakness. Suddenly he can't fall back on just martial strength anymore and his pride refuses to allow him to set aside his personal hangups to work with others. It's the straw that breaks the camel's back. Feeling like he was purposely set up to fail, Zoraal Ja does away with any form of honor, and just resorts to underhanded tactics. This isn't just about proving himself anymore. Now he's just doing whatever he thinks is necessary to claim what he feels like should naturally belong to him, justifying his actions with the thought process of everything belonging to him by right and that he, as destined for greatness as he is, shouldn't lose or acquiesce to those he believes are inferior to himself.
In comes AI Sphene who basically gives Zooral Ja everything he needs to be able to act out his insane intrusive thoughts and he happily steps over the line into a place now where there's no saving or helping him. He can't be talked out of what he's doing, he can't be reasoned with or dealt with the way a lot of villains before him had been dealt with because stopping now would mean everything he's endured and done would've been for nothing. Talk no jutsu is off the table. Now, given free reign to behave how he wants without having to hold back, he goes completely off the deep end and it only gets worse after he murders his father because while he does manage to kill him, he could only do so by relying on extra help from bascially cheating death to cheese the fight. That doesn't make him feel confident or better, that just angers him more. Yeah, he cut him down in the end, but had he not had fancy gadgets to help him and literally bring him back to life, he'd be dead on the floor and DT would've ended right there. Now he thinks there's no other way to prove that he's a true ruler than to basically subjugate everyone and everything in some desperate attempt to prove to himself that he isn't just all hot air and to prop himself up to be a better ruler than his dad ever was while he childishly lashes out at anyone that would question those claims, completely missing what it actually means to be a good ruler.
Yes, Zoraal Ja was just a spoiled, petulant child who's response to critisism was to just murder you, but there is some nuance there if you look hard enough. Not saying that he was a great villain or anything. It's just, he could've been better and was greatly hampered by the poor writing, much of how all of DT was.
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Golfing on the Moon 1971
kiwifarms.net
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- Dec 13, 2022
I thought that Athena and Gulool Ja's mothers were refreshing characters. The norm in fiction (especially anime stuff) is for the mother to be lionized as a saint. Only fathers can fall short or be malicious.
My problem isn't so much with Zoraal Ja as it is with his father, who the game makes out to be a wise good guy we are to look up to. As king, it is implicit that you will raise your son (or find/cultivate a worthy son-in-law) to inherit the throne. But the king declares this contest instead, which seems to be a tacit admission that he was not confident that his son would have been a good ruler. The king is too cowardly to tell his son he is being passed over, or to admit to the nation that he failed as their king and tell Zoraal Ja's followers that he would not be good. So now he is stalling and this contest as a PR cover to try to mitigate Zoraal Ja's disinheritance. Conspicuously, all of the supporters Zoraal Ja had at the start of the expansion are forgotten and never brought up again. Everybody is unanimously cheering for Wuk.
I would have preferred if Gulool Ja Ja had been honest about his failure and then eventually up front said that he is disinheriting Zoraal Ja and this is why, and then after Wuk wins we see discontentment about the outcome and some Turalians supporting Zoraal Ja. Maybe they could have opened the gate or something when he returned with a foreign army.
My problem isn't so much with Zoraal Ja as it is with his father, who the game makes out to be a wise good guy we are to look up to. As king, it is implicit that you will raise your son (or find/cultivate a worthy son-in-law) to inherit the throne. But the king declares this contest instead, which seems to be a tacit admission that he was not confident that his son would have been a good ruler. The king is too cowardly to tell his son he is being passed over, or to admit to the nation that he failed as their king and tell Zoraal Ja's followers that he would not be good. So now he is stalling and this contest as a PR cover to try to mitigate Zoraal Ja's disinheritance. Conspicuously, all of the supporters Zoraal Ja had at the start of the expansion are forgotten and never brought up again. Everybody is unanimously cheering for Wuk.
I would have preferred if Gulool Ja Ja had been honest about his failure and then eventually up front said that he is disinheriting Zoraal Ja and this is why, and then after Wuk wins we see discontentment about the outcome and some Turalians supporting Zoraal Ja. Maybe they could have opened the gate or something when he returned with a foreign army.
Lord Nelson
kiwifarms.net
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- Jul 27, 2024
It kinda makes sense that Gulool Ja Ja makes some stupid decisions and acts weird since the head of reason is dead.
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- Jan 30, 2021
Zoraal Ja has to be the biggest fumble in DT. High villain potential and it got watered down to "i have daddy issues" which imo downplays what he character stood for. He was crushed by the expectations placed upon him and naturally sought to be better than his dad and his siblings at any cost which leads us to the conflict of DT. Would have been cool to see him become a tyrant and then see how heavy the weight of the crown is and realize that all the pressure his dad was always under. Maybe near the end where the world was gonna essentially end due to the shenanigans of a certain sphene, he decided to stand up and actually protect his kingdom and be put in a similar position, realizing in the end what his dad thought as he stroke his father down. Thus everything coming full circle. A true divine tragedy. Yet we got whatever the fuck was the attempt of DT. Of course im leaving out deets but is a general idea of what ive would've like for the character to go through.
DiabeticSydePhil
kiwifarms.net
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- Dec 12, 2022
That would have been better but this fucking god awful two act structure means we NEED to have Plot A (the adventure for the golden temple), An Intermission (rubber bullet cowboys), and then Plot B (Sphene).
If they'd just done a single Plot each game we could have had plenty of time to make Wuk Lamat grow and overcome challenges and maybe be slightly likeable. Then they could have had the patches be about Zoraal Ja going off the deep end after losing even though he tried cheating and introduce Sphene/the city as a benevolent queen with Zoraal Ja being competent (but imply he's shady/evil).
Then have a whole expansion building to the Zoraal Ja fight and Sphene reveal/fight.
This fucked up format means they somehow manage to make both plots drag AND have no time to expand the concept to make it matter.
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2019
The thing is they could have juggled those three (or two main) different plots if the writing was even a smidge more competent.
Let's take Stormblood, for the inevitable comparison. You have:
A: Ala Mhiggers resistance. This was 60-61
B: Going to Hingashi and enlisting the pirates help: 62-63-ish
C: Doma Resistance and also Hien: 64-67 (Sideplot of the not Mongolian leadership contest)
D: Back to Ala Mhigger: 68-70
The execution was still so-so, mainly because white woman (Lyse) drags the whole thing down, but I'd say they managed it competently otherwise.
They had no shortage of budget OR time to make Wuk Lmao likeable, or fleshing out Zoraal Ja. Instead we got retard troon cat who don't even know the kingdom she's supposed to be ruling over, and prodigal son who appeared more schizo than coherent. By contrast, they managed to make Hien (and Gosetsu) likeable over the course of a few MSQ levels in Stormblood. Likewise, Yotsuyu got the same treatment, showing both her motivations and her villainous nature over the same period.
There's absolutely no reason they can't do it, even within the framework of DT.
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2019
The problem was that there is/was no royal family structure in Tural because Galool Ja Ja was the first Dawnservant. So there isn't a system in place over there that dictates that someone inherits becoming the Dawnservant through familial lineage. Galool Ja Ja was named the Dawnservant because of his many deeds to bring all of Tural together from a bunch of warring factions to an actual cohesive civilization. He wasn't born a prince and ascended a throne through inheritance, he was given the title because he worked for it and the people loved him enough to name him their ruler. So he believed that his successor should also become Dawnservant through their own merits and work and not just be handed all of Tural just because of blood relation. Hence why he decided to come up with the contest to begin with. Galool Ja Ja also said himself that the contest was designed to make a ruler rather than see who was "the best" fit for Dawnservant. He was hoping the contest would help his children grow into good, well adjusted people.
An argument could be made that Galool Ja Ja failed as a father for letting his son get this bad. But we have to acknowledge that it's a 2 way street. Galool Ja Ja's words can only get through to Zoraal Ja if he's willing to listen. We don't know how many times Galool Ja Ja has probably tried to talk with his biological son, only to be either stone walled or have his son put on a facade that everything was okay. If anything, maybe a part of him really wanted Zoraal Ja to step up to the plate to become the great ruler he thought he'd be. My point though is that Galool Ja Ja isn't entirely to blame for why Zoraal Ja turned out to be a complete sociopath. His fans and sycophants, in particular the Malool Ja who had grudges against all the other races in Tural or felt that Tural belonged to them and didn't want to share, constantly filling his head with notions that he SHOULD be the rightful ruler just based off of his "birthright" when technically there is no birthright are to blame. Galool Ja Ja never promised his children anything. He never told them that he expects them to inherit his title. The people of Tural did that. He made a contest to give them a fair shot. Because being a ruler is more than just having "royal blood". You have to be someone competent and understanding of the responsibility.
DT's poor writing also robs us of Galool Ja Ja expressing any sort of regret or melancholy for his son turning out the way he did. He was so caught up with the celebrations for the contest ending and his love for his own biological son believing he would never stoop so low that he's caught off guard when he sees that his own son has invaded Tural and slaughtered it's people in cold blood. He realizes how badly he has failed him and makes it his responsibility to kill him. Unfortunately, he's cut down before we can get any real introspection about this failure, instead using his last moments to encourage his 2 adopted children.
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- Joined
- Jan 30, 2021
Although one constant that keeps me going back even if it is for a month sub, is the Goat, Hildibrand. The goofy storylines always bring me joy and a good chuckle. DT might be dogshit but the music, raid serie and hildibrand quest were awesome.
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2019
I'm glad we've hit the point in the discourse cycle on twitter where dawntrail defending people come out of the woodwork to be like, "UMM ACTUALLY ENDWALKER SUCKED (WHICH MEANS THAT DAWNTRAIL IS JUST FINE CHUD)"
I have a lot of problems with Endwalker but pretending like it's somehow as bad as Dawntrail is pure lol
I have a lot of problems with Endwalker but pretending like it's somehow as bad as Dawntrail is pure lol
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2016
@Golfing on the Moon 1971 don’t get me wrong I’m not saying Athena and Gulool Ja’s mom are bad characters, I just noticed that it was pattern that pops up in Hiroi’s work.
As for expansion discourse for some bizarre reason Dawntrail defenders especially have a hate boner for Endwalker compared to other expansions. Whenever they go on their crusades to tear down and bash other expansions to retaliate against Dawntrail hate and prop up their beloved expansion Endwalker seems to be their favorite target and punching bag. I’ll see Dawntrail stans cry and wail over how they hate fandom negativity, hate seeing Dawntrail getting hated, and that people should be positive and stop being mean to Dawntrail only to turn around and ruthlessly bash Endwalker with the same intensity that hardcore Dawntrail haters bash Dawntrail. When they’re not tearing down Endwalker they’re chimping out on people who say Dawntrail is worse than Stormblood and ARR and they will proceed to bash Stormblood and ARR as well.
These people will preach sermons to fight fandom toxicity, negativity and hate and how we need to leave DT alone while joining hands and singing kumbaya but will do the exact same things they hate Dawntrail critics for but with other expansions. Dawntrails stans have no self awareness. And that’s not even touching upon the people who defend Wuk by bashing and tearing down other popular, well liked characters.
As for expansion discourse for some bizarre reason Dawntrail defenders especially have a hate boner for Endwalker compared to other expansions. Whenever they go on their crusades to tear down and bash other expansions to retaliate against Dawntrail hate and prop up their beloved expansion Endwalker seems to be their favorite target and punching bag. I’ll see Dawntrail stans cry and wail over how they hate fandom negativity, hate seeing Dawntrail getting hated, and that people should be positive and stop being mean to Dawntrail only to turn around and ruthlessly bash Endwalker with the same intensity that hardcore Dawntrail haters bash Dawntrail. When they’re not tearing down Endwalker they’re chimping out on people who say Dawntrail is worse than Stormblood and ARR and they will proceed to bash Stormblood and ARR as well.
These people will preach sermons to fight fandom toxicity, negativity and hate and how we need to leave DT alone while joining hands and singing kumbaya but will do the exact same things they hate Dawntrail critics for but with other expansions. Dawntrails stans have no self awareness. And that’s not even touching upon the people who defend Wuk by bashing and tearing down other popular, well liked characters.
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Sunflower Samurai
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2019
EW going from a good (excellent by current JRPG standards) story with some heavy pacing issues (I still maintain that the moonrabbit autism should've been before Zodiark and not after) to DT's failed potential is really bad, EW's stumbles were mostly made up by its key moments being for the most part really evocative and downright inspiring. It also didn't have a main VAs and one of its main translators pissing on the ground getting constantly assmad their work wasn't being slobbered on like before.
I feel like the boom during EW really elevated some egos so when an already middling storyline filled with missed potential instead of bad pacing just broke them when their failed nepo troon hire ended up being the face of most issues with it. Even if you set the VA aside
I feel like the boom during EW really elevated some egos so when an already middling storyline filled with missed potential instead of bad pacing just broke them when their failed nepo troon hire ended up being the face of most issues with it. Even if you set the VA aside
Well Intentioned
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2018
These two elements are pretty frustrating. I think if they explored the cause for this miracle birth it'd go a long way towards explaining why he has a head full of bad wiring.
The other issue is that we have the exact same scenario with Bakool Ja Ja as a 'chosen one' type and as a result both of their stories overlap with each other, with nothing really interesting coming out beyond parental/societal expectations = bad.
We do have this admission in that cutscene where he reveals his one head is dead and he states that he is willing to withhold the right to rule if they don't learn the proper lessons that come from the contest.
Only it's for Wuk fucking Lamat because of course it is.
See, that's part of why I'm okay with Zoraal Ja and his whole thing, beyond it being fucking stupid that 'Suddenly! Lasers!' with Alexandria. A low stakes expansion where we basically 'save the kingdom' from some Macbethian motherfucker is all that was really needed. We didn't need the pseudo-cyberpunk shit with Alexandria or Moans For Buffaloes side story. A simple story that is rich in setup and establishing characters, places, hooks, etc. was all they needed to fucking do instead of this convoluted nonsense.
I'd argue that there's a bit of a problem with comparing Stormblood to Dawntrail and the building up of certain characters. Yeah, things are layered pretty simply, but we've had ample time to build up all of those things in different ways from ARR all the way to post-Heavensward. You have Raubahn's history, as well as Ilberd's, all the shit in New
All of this does a good job at establishing a promise (that we're going to be going to Ala Mhigo and Doma at some point) and then paying it off in Stormblood. You also have characters (sorry, character, singular) who aren't just shoehorned in the second to last patch before the expansion where they're the main focus, contrasted with characters who are likeable and have had some time and space to grow.
I can't recall but I'm pretty sure that there was little to zero mention of Erenville coming from the New World, and his friendship with Wuk Lamat felt bullshit and contrived. I'd also argue it is not a good idea to introduce a new character by having the only people who know them audibly groan when they show up. It felt like a retard trying to ape the relationship between Yugiri and Gosetsu and not understanding the finer points of why it worked.
The other thing is that the new characters introduced in Stormblood all fed off of each other and helped strengthen the characterization of everyone. Fordola and Yotsuyu are reflective of Zenos, who is an evil asshole. They all contrast with the heroic characters and it's easy for us to fill in the blanks as to what Hien will be like.
I know I keep repeating this over and over, but they really needed to slow things down and just focus on the build up for Dawntrail. The number of ways they botched this is just stunning for me.
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- Jul 4, 2022
I need to speed through a role quest to able to dye my job gear purple, since I'm autistic and my wol has to always wear some purple
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2019
This is honestly why I was mad they wasted the entireity of EW post-patch shoving in the stupid FFIV references instead, and in the process wasting the Thirteenth, which could have been a expansion of its own, like how the First got its own xpac. That it also left them with very little time to also build up Dawntrail was a completely self-inflicted wound in that process as well.
- Joined
- May 12, 2020
If Wuk Lamat had been conveyed properly, s/he could've been a very compelling protagonist that a lot of people could relate to.
The simplest way to boil her entire character down would be to say that she was a retarded troon voiced shounen character, but you get a bigger glimpse into what's driving her to be such a girlboss during her solo duty along with some tiny, hard to spot crumbs along the way.
She was separated from her father to become the daughter of a beloved King who solved everyone's issues and helps them co-exist and two older brothers who are slightly less tard-brained than her, so from the get-go there are high hopes on her. She constantly compares herself to her siblings and develops a brash, exaggerated confidence to cope with years of an inferiority complex. Gulool Ja wanted her to learn that being a ruler was about more than being strong or having a functional frontal lobe.
Unfortunately, he also for some reason allowed the competition to be open to the mightiest fighter in the kingdom, Bakool Ja Ja, who stepped on Wuk's tacos and calls her 'housecat' which would make anyone feel worse. She couldn't beat him in combat and to protect people like the Yok Huy in Urqopacha when Bakool released Aztec Trogdor, and Wuk failed miserably to stop him. But then she met her biological father, and came to understand her place not just as a member of the royal family, but one of Tural's diverse and cooperative peoples, and was able to summon her strength to defeat Bakool Ja Ja, fully culminating as a well-realised protagonist.
Yes, Wuk Lamat is a complete waste of oxygen whose role could've been filled by a brain-damaged chihuahua, but there is some nuance there if you look hard enough.
Sorry, I just feel like you can apply this logic to anything. I think too many people have this mindset that a character is well-written if they're 'relatable' or have 'depth'. Not saying great characters don't have depth, but it's less important than how they're presented. Zoraal Ja can have all the motivation in the world, but it doesn't mean anything because from our perspective, nothing he does is really surprising or represents a change in character. I like comparing him to Vauthry because Vauthry is dead simple, not relatable at all, but infinitely more interesting to watch because he's dangerous and unpredictable.
I would buy this if Zoraal Ja was an angry teen or something, but he's a grown man, and more to the point, he's the leader of Tural's military. If he really got that position by merit then he should already have skill at delegating and cooperation. I think he's a bit past "get him to go outside and see if it helps".
The fact that he fumbles the cooking contest in Yak'tel because he refuses to talk to people like some brooding incel ruins any chance of taking him seriously. Bakool Ja Ja has more social skills than him.
And it's just silly to think Gulool Ja Ja treats his son's violent obsession on the same level as Wuk being inexperienced. It's not like Zoraal Ja's hiding anything; the Pelupelu supporters like him because he openly plans to declare war on the rest of the world and they believe war is good for business. He's pretty clear that he plans to be the opposite of his father if he gets into power, and we don't hear a single concern in response. I don't see a way to look at it without Gulool Ja Ja coming across like a bit of a tard here.