Final Fantasy XIV - Kiwi Free Company

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They hate Venat for taking their utopian race away and angry at the EW writers for denying them the ability to live out their fantasies.

That's the core of it, I think. I get wanting to run power fantasies in video games, but... it's a little fucked when the fans are simping for the literal genocidal army.

As for the current topic discussion the entire Titan feast part of ARR is irredeemably awful even with the giant msq trim they did.

"On no, a Primal's going to fucking kill us all! Let's waste everyone's time by throwing a feast! And don't even bother to thank the guy who set it up or even give him advice; let's just be a bunch of pricks for no real reason!" Seriously, why did they keep that arc in the game, again?

For me, the biggest thing I hate about the MSQ overall is honestly probably just Ran'jit from Shb. He was one of the few parts of that expansion that I didn't get spoiled on, and... well, let's just say that I REALLY didn't like the guy, mainly because his fights just got annoying, and he felt pretty flat as a character. I also felt that the Loporrits from EW did grind the plot a bit too much; not that I hate them, just that they were given a little too much screentime. The Moogles were at least meant to be disliked, from what I can gather, and Ala Mhigo just felt undercooked; there were one or to scenes that I didn't like, but... in all honesty, Stormblood was just "meh", as opposed to bad.
 
Im sorry but ff14 isnt the narrative masterpiece that people think it is. Does it have some cool things story wise? Yes. Sure its cool to go back on the story and see all the little references to future content and how interconnects but thats it.
Yeah it’s definitely not. I will say that Heavensward and Shadowbringers easily have the best MMO stories, but with gaming as a whole it just can’t compare to some of the best video game stories out there. I’d say shadowbringers is a pretty good final fantasy story overall, but it can’t top 7, 9, or 10.
Not actually killing Nanamo at the end of ARR. Would have been an amazing way to nail how bad Alphinaud fucked up running the Crystal Braves
That whole part of the ARR story was lame. Even back when FFXIV was still willing to kill characters they did not kill them enough. Seeing Teledji Adeledji getting sliced in half was pretty kino though.
Wouldve been cool to explore how Wuk Lamat at the end of the main story realizes that Zoraal Ja was right and she becomes a Tyrant and goes mad. Sadly FF14 cant be fucking bothered to explore the fall of characters in a meaningful way.


Like Wuk Lamat had potential as a character but the writing fucked her over.
Problem with FFXIV is you have to deal with the rabid fanbase who demands that everything be super wholesome. That means that everything has to be sanitized because unlike a one-off single player game, an MMO has to continue to spiral to appease the retards.
 
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For me, the biggest thing I hate about the MSQ overall is honestly probably just Ran'jit from Shb. He was one of the few parts of that expansion that I didn't get spoiled on, and... well, let's just say that I REALLY didn't like the guy, mainly because his fights just got annoying, and he felt pretty flat as a character. I also felt that the Loporrits from EW did grind the plot a bit too much; not that I hate them, just that they were given a little too much screentime. The Moogles were at least meant to be disliked, from what I can gather, and Ala Mhigo just felt undercooked; there were one or to scenes that I didn't like, but... in all honesty, Stormblood was just "meh", as opposed to bad
Yeah Ran’jit was the weakest part of ShB though he was more boring than offensively bad. He should have died when he got defeated by Thancred instead of being dragged back for us to unceremoniously kill him. I wonder if they were planning to do more with the guy but they had to scrap potential storylines for whatever reason. Wouldn’t be the first time in the msq they’ve scrapped plot points and characters. At least he gave us really good character moments for Thancred and Ryne.

Problem with FFXIV is you have to deal with the rabid fanbase who demands that everything be super wholesome. That means that everything has to be sanitized because unlike a one-off single player game, an MMO has to continue to spiral to appease the retards
I remember people getting extremely angry that ShB had us help out Eulmore and that EW had us help out the Garleans instead of letting both places crash and burn to the ground. Apparently helping Eulmore and Garlemald and not leaving their civilians to die (including innocent ones) means the writers are endorsing slavery and fascism. These were actual takes I’ve seen years ago from Twitter and Tumblr people. I also brought up many times in this thread in the past over fans getting filtered hard by Emet and accusing the writers of being imperialism apologists/fascists/genocide supporters/etc. because apparently making villains with morally grey motives/sympathetic back stories means writers endorse the themes they write. Same with other villains like Zenos and Yotsuyu. And they almost always singled out Ishikawa with these accusations out of all the writers for some reason, even going as far back as getting offended by her writing in Stormblood’s msq. And of course we obviously have the Zodiark trancers malding over Venat sundering the world and accusing SE of glorifying genocide. With all that in mind I wonder if that’s why DT is so over the top wholesome like it is, not only due to sensitivity consultants but also due to fans throwing fits every time the story shows hints of grey morality. Granted I don’t know if Japanese fans ever had the same reactions to the games msq pre DT like the western fanbase did or if SE even cares what westerners think about the game’s plot as a whole so it’s just a theory.
 
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People don't like Ran'jit form Shadowbringers? I loved that dude! He falls into an endless abyss to a most certain death, then he just pops up again to kick your train cart and giant robot escort off of train tracks and just says "Bitch I cant die, I know Kung Fu!" (slight paraphrasing)

Dude was a Giga Chad, I don't even wanna believe he died from that final fight with him, I like to think he's off somewhere doing epic monk shit somewhere and wrecking unsuspecting motherfuckers everywhere he goes.
 
Chudbros......our response?

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The issue with Elpis is that it was a very stupid contrivance that was needed to fit in Hermes and his plot point with the bird.

There were a lot of ways that they could have skinned that particular cat, but bludgeoning him in there and making him tie into Amon and the Allagans and then to Fandaniel because Zodiark wasn't enough of a big bad (even though Zodiark was built up since like day 1 of ARR), it didn't land for me because we were basically doing a rugpull right before the 10 year climax.

I hate that I'm making this comparison, but I'm only doing it because of '10 years of buildup!!!!', but if the second hour of Infinity War had the Avengers meeting Kang and setting up Kang as the actual villain and then the last 30 minutes was everyone fighting Kang and not Thanos.

Exploring the relationship before the Ascians were Ascians was important, but building up a completely new ultimate evil in the dumbest way possible is really meh for me.
 
I got 3 minutes into this before I had to stop to comment and it's more or less what I was expecting.

- Accusing people of lacking reading comprehension while being illiterate themselves
- Accusing people of transphobia and conflating complaints about Wuk Lamat with transphobia
- Lots of YELLING and SWEARING because it is so WACKY ZANY

I'm not expecting much else from this cunt.
 
I got 3 minutes into this before I had to stop to comment and it's more or less what I was expecting.

- Accusing people of lacking reading comprehension while being illiterate themselves
- Accusing people of transphobia and conflating complaints about Wuk Lamat with transphobia
- Lots of YELLING and SWEARING because it is so WACKY ZANY

I'm not expecting much else from this cunt.
This looked whiny from the start. I'd not even have clicked on it.
 
I got 3 minutes into this before I had to stop to comment and it's more or less what I was expecting.

- Accusing people of lacking reading comprehension while being illiterate themselves
- Accusing people of transphobia and conflating complaints about Wuk Lamat with transphobia
- Lots of YELLING and SWEARING because it is so WACKY ZANY

I'm not expecting much else from this cunt.
Bro Wuk Lamat is a shit character. I played her with the Jap VA and while better than in english, that doesnt change the fact that the character is shit. If the tranny had VA ability i would have let it on Eng VA.
 
Bro Wuk Lamat is a shit character. I played her with the Jap VA and while better than in english, that doesnt change the fact that the character is shit. If the tranny had VA ability i would have let it on Eng VA.
Wuk is still an all consuming force no matter what the language used is. Its proven by the # of lines of dialogue in the expansion both spoken and written. The # of objectives that are quite literally 'Talk to the real protagonist'. They could swap Wuk's english VA work to an AI voice of David Attenborough and it would change nothing about the narrative issues.

The JP voice actress is better but you can't buff out the turd that is Troon Cat.
 
Really seems like they figured the Elpis writing didn't have to be good as long as players got to hang out with their husbando Emet-Selch. That section of the game was nothing but contrived fanservice that also screwed over their entire plot and I'm convinced they saw the FF villain popularity poll and realized they could have some incompetent writer phone it in for their attempt to rush the grand finale of their storyarc if they showed the right things.
Yoshi-P says Elpis and Emet in EW were planned from the very beginning
I have a running theory which is at-best a hunch -- that the individual writers above the grade of 'assistant' are assigned portions of an overall outline that is drafted up by the lead writer. So to say I think Elpis (and Ultima Thule) were written in draft and outline, major plot beats and all, by the leads and then farmed out to different writers who then handle the sections.

It reconciles how Endwalker falls apart as Zodiark collapses to the earth - because the plot beats could work, but they just suck and the quests become more boring than usual and the camera angles get completely flat... which is what happens in Shadowbringers after you beat Titania, with the whole middle section being pretty boring and pretty ass.
Im sorry but ff14 isnt the narrative masterpiece that people think it is.
It has moments of pure, unadulterated kino that are up there with the best in this medium for moments of it, and that's in itself impressive: inside a story that is mostly filler and mostly boring, you get moments like the climax of Shadowbringers with the absolute slobberknocker of: "Remember us. Remember we existed."

Compare that whole sequence to Dawntrail's finale and, well, yeah. It's not high literature but I want my kino back.
 
It has moments of pure, unadulterated kino that are up there with the best in this medium for moments of it, and that's in itself impressive: inside a story that is mostly filler and mostly boring, you get moments like the climax of Shadowbringers with the absolute slobberknocker of: "Remember us. Remember we existed."

Compare that whole sequence to Dawntrail's finale and, well, yeah. It's not high literature but I want my kino back.
I think the thing is that FFXIV's MSQ has been structured such that 80% of it is boring slop, 15% decent,, and 5% pure kino moments. The average player will forget, because of how boring it is, the afformentioned 80% and only remember the 5% kino moments, maybe the 15% decent parts too. Like ask your average ShB enjoyer what they liked about it and they'll probably tell you "Emet Selch" or "The ending with Amaurot" because really that was just about all that was good or worth remembering about the entirety of 5.0. Sure there were some good scenes with characters like Ardbert (honestly Cyberpunk did the whole "Ghost who hangs around you the whole story and who only you can see or hear who slowly becomes your best friend" plot much better but I digress), a few good moments of drama between Ryne and Thancred, but it was basically "Okay we need to this zone and kill this Lightwarden. Ok now we're going to this zone to kill this other Lightwarden.....". It was an incredibly video-gamey plot where it revolved around moving from boss of the hour. It's almost ENTIRELY held up by Emet Selch (who barely has any actual scenes) and the climax.

But because those (extremely few) moments are so good, that's all people remember, they don't remember the other vast majority of the plot that was almost entirely forgettable rubbish. It doesn't help that the vast VAST majority of FFXIV players, from my observations, have never touched any other game, let alone any other form of media in their entire lives so they have literally zero frame of reference for good writing (in general), so the average Xivvie is easily impressed to begin with, so naturally they think it's the best story ever told.
 
Like ask your average ShB enjoyer what they liked about it and they'll probably tell you "Emet Selch" or "The ending with Amaurot" because really that was just about all that was good or worth remembering about the entirety of 5.0.
The key to a good 14 experience, and frankly to be remembered as a "good game story" in general is to have moments of absolute wonder amidst passable-and-enjoyable segments which allow the player to overlook the bad shit. Torment has a ton of fucking boring portions and some godawful clunk, but the tone of the whole story and its obscene heights keeps it from falling apart. Bioshock has a lot of "would ya kindly go do that video game thing," Disco Elysium's momentum completely farts out in the final quarter of the game, etc. etc.

Shadowbringers manages to start well - everything from the moment you show up to the moment you kill Titania is told like a proper story. Ardbert serves the point of "exposition-vendor" but does so in a way that inspires interest rather than that dully lists qualities (see: every dawntrail quest), the worldbuilding flows logically, and the stakes are made clear and presented in ways that pack plenty of drama and punch with memorable characters that you want to see the reveal to. Even the general, god-awful as he turns out to be, is this strange figure of intrigue when you first encounter him.

As much as I love Amaurot and the conclusion of Emet-Selch, SHB for me manages to be overall good and well-written because its intro is a glimpse into what the story could be: a plot that feels like it's going somewhere. This is also why Heavensward is regarded so highly, and I think why people enjoy the Doma portion of SB: there's clear goals, clear objectives, clear antagonists. It's nothing phenomenal, but it's very solid stuff.
Which is also why EW and especially DT fundamentally fail. After you kill Zodiark, it's really not clear what you're doing, what the antagonists are, what the objective is, exactly. You fly to the end of the universe... to punch a bird in the face? What were you going to do when you arrived there? And the whole of DT is just - why am I doing this? What are the stakes, really? Who are the antagonists? Why are they antagonists?

My theory that different writers get different portions has a small caveat - I think that the lead retains the authority to intercede where they please at times. The cafe scene before EW's finale is a solid character moment, as is Ryne and Thancred after Thancred slips on a banana peel in the desert. And indeed, the camera movement in these scenes is more complicated and involved than it is in anything sandwiching them.
 
You can say the same thing about other expansions too- when Heavensward enjoyers dickride their favorite msq they think of Horsefart’s death, dragons, or the part where we hang out with our little adventuring party in the Churning Mists. However they forget the terrible pacing, the awful resolution to the ARR finale, both times we have to go to the Sea of Clouds, the Hinterlands slog, Ysayle’s death being anticlimactic, Garleans popping up randomly, etc. Also nobody really talks about Thorden or the rest of the knights except for getting mad at the one who killed Horsefart. HW makes me especially MATI because it was good when it first came out but doesn't hold up well a decade later in replays. I did a new game plus of the entire msq and HW and ARR aged the worst out of all them except for DT.

You’d also be surprised at the amount of people who think ARR is the pinnacle of video game writing and stroke out when you tell them it’s boring or when they see first time players telling others to skip through ARR to get to HW. Even the parts of SB that everyone considers to be one of the few “good” parts of the expansion like the Doma sections are a massive slog. This community has been dog piling and shrieking at those who criticize the game’s story since day one.
 
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