Apustajan apustaja
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The symbols are iron and copper. One builds muscle and changes the world, the other leads electricity and makes alloys with other metals.
Feminism discussion thread
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Thanks. Though I have been thinking recently about Artemis / Diana, Athena / Minerva, as they were the goddesses of the hunt and of strategy. Athena specifically was also a goddess of war, as was the roman goddess Bellona.
Of course the Greeks didn't think too well of Ares. The bloodlust and destruction associated with him made him a deity that saw little worship, whereas the Roman counterpart Mars was quite revered and more thought of him of a symbol of armed peace. Mars also started as a god of agriculture and only later became associated with war.
I think it's interesting to think about how these female deities were so associated with hunting and combat. Perhaps it was their version of Girls und Panzer, as the idea of the amazons was.
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Pretty sure in the hunting aspect a goddess meant to feed (provide a bountiful hunt) to her children (worshippers). Not exactly sure but that’s a good start to understanding what people were thinking.
Generic Name #37
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I think equality is a separate issue. Plus, virtually all feminists are not advocating for some sort of oppressive matriarchy anyway.
Do condoms never break in your world or something?
You kind of ignored the second half of his (admittedly somewhat silly) hypothetical. The hypothetical was about extremely late term abortions. Granted, I don’t know if he was asking in good faith, but I interpreted his question as asking if you would agree with some restrictions (i.e. the viability requirement from the now defunct Roe v. Wade ruling), or if you are an absolutist on abortion being allowed at any point in the pregnancy.
you could have just linked kindrad.org
you do realize that there’s no such thing as a big F feminism, it’s not some monolithic organization. Sure you can argue that the most vocal and influential (i.e. the most well funded and connected) feminists said that, But that’s not exactly a condemnation of the core concept of feminism, just the most popular interpretation of it.
Good faith question here, what is your interpretation of what those things look like when fully realized? Do you think most other women would share that opinion?
true.
this.
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Maybe I just missed it, but I don't support elective late-term abortion. Early term elective is fine, and I thought 24 weeks was a suitable cutoff. Nearly all elective abortions are carried out around 6-8 weeks, or at least they are in Mass and NYC. It is bizarre for someone to get more than halfway through a pregnancy and then suddenly have a change of heart.
I would, however, be in support of a late-term abortion if the mom's life is in danger or the fetus is too messed up to really survive (i.e. anencephaly.)
He never gets laid, so all of this is a hypothetical to him.
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Goddesses are cool and I look up to them.
It's not just Greek/Roman Goddesses that are fighters either, Goddess Bastet in Egypt is also a fighter.
Sorry I like stuff like this, I have nothing else to add to the thread, carry on.
It's not just Greek/Roman Goddesses that are fighters either, Goddess Bastet in Egypt is also a fighter.
Sorry I like stuff like this, I have nothing else to add to the thread, carry on.
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there were lots of war goddesses, too, and they often intersected with other areas, such as fertility
http://www.bewilderingstories.com/issue213/war_goddesses.html [archive]
this preview doesn't even get to Ishtar, lol
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I'm not sure how talking about goddesses, or the view on gender of ancient civilizations is not part of thinking about feminism.
One thing that bothers me that I have to be increasingly cautious of what sources I use to read about these things. There is such a push because of feminists into highlighting female accomplishments throughout history, that you often get historical figures that are a bit overblown, which was particularly notable in Sarkeesian's work of historical women. I mean it makes sense there, but then there's also these wikipedia groups dedicated to it. It also means that when you do find some disparity about what sources say and what wikipedia says, that you have to turn into a kind of conspiracy theorist and redpill people when you just want to have a bit of a laid back chat about some thoughts about historical figures.
It's a bit of the same problem with quota's: once they're there all the competent women get more bias against them in people's heads, because people think they got there because of quota's.
Though I'm probably mostly preaching to the choir here.
One thing that bothers me that I have to be increasingly cautious of what sources I use to read about these things. There is such a push because of feminists into highlighting female accomplishments throughout history, that you often get historical figures that are a bit overblown, which was particularly notable in Sarkeesian's work of historical women. I mean it makes sense there, but then there's also these wikipedia groups dedicated to it. It also means that when you do find some disparity about what sources say and what wikipedia says, that you have to turn into a kind of conspiracy theorist and redpill people when you just want to have a bit of a laid back chat about some thoughts about historical figures.
It's a bit of the same problem with quota's: once they're there all the competent women get more bias against them in people's heads, because people think they got there because of quota's.
Though I'm probably mostly preaching to the choir here.
Generic Name #37
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Well now that it’s quieted down, maybe it can actually get back on track.
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Let's add something more controversial then.
Men deserve to have equal rights and equal opportunities that women have.
And they don't currently have them.
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getting most women to agree to something is difficult just like its difficult to get most men to do so; we are not a hivemind and we're all very different (but simmilar, too...).
Plus right now branches of feminism are so divided grouping them together isn't really worth it; furthermore feminism in general is trendy (though I think its popularity is on the decline) so there's a lot of women (and men, too...
) that follow and repeat things blindly without ever reflecting on it much or forming their own opinions.
SSj_Ness (Yiffed)
Ask me about how teen girls deserve to be abducted
True & Honest Fan
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Are condoms the only way to prevent pregnancy in your world or something?
They didn't teach this in preschool?
Generic Name #37
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Maybe it’s just me but I don’t often think in terms of theory, and actually affecting change requires some degree of consensus and compromise. The question I posed was largely rhetorical and meant to spur thought.getting most women to agree to something is difficult just like its difficult to get most men to do so; we are not a hivemind and we're all very different (but simmilar, too...).
Plus right now branches of feminism are so divided grouping them together isn't really worth it; furthermore feminism in general is trendy (though I think its popularity is on the decline) so there's a lot of women (and men, too...
On another note, I have been reading some articles from https://fairerdisputations.org/ I think that they have a good, unconventional type of feminism.
Generic Name #37
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What do the feminists of the farms think about motherhood? I have read some articles that discuss the idea that contemporary mainstream feminism doesn’t pay enough attention to supporting women who are mothers. https://modernagejournal.com/feminism-goes-home/235838/
I also want to share a comment on ovarit I found thought provoking
“… if we think of equality as sort sort of same-ness, which is what many minds often default to, women always lose because we end up on men's playing field, with men's rules and men's values.
The key challenge of feminism, I think, is to develop the concept of equality as a type of 'parity in the context of difference.' What does "different but equal" actually look like? What does it mean to refuse to play on the male field with male rules and male values?
Separatism is not the answer. It's either impossible (women birth males) or a ghetto.
So is it actually possible to build--with men--a world in which women have nothing to fear from men, in which women can magnify all their talents and dreams as men so, where women have as much say in how the world is run as men do, where women's voices are as listened to as male voices?…”
I also want to share a comment on ovarit I found thought provoking
“… if we think of equality as sort sort of same-ness, which is what many minds often default to, women always lose because we end up on men's playing field, with men's rules and men's values.
The key challenge of feminism, I think, is to develop the concept of equality as a type of 'parity in the context of difference.' What does "different but equal" actually look like? What does it mean to refuse to play on the male field with male rules and male values?
Separatism is not the answer. It's either impossible (women birth males) or a ghetto.
So is it actually possible to build--with men--a world in which women have nothing to fear from men, in which women can magnify all their talents and dreams as men so, where women have as much say in how the world is run as men do, where women's voices are as listened to as male voices?…”
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I would love to live in a world where we can treat guys as nicely as we treat women, but then guys get up to shit like killing eachother in a knife fight because they got bored or killing their gf on livestream for donos.
You grow up your whole life hearing about how women are lazy do-nothings and then when you become an adult and try to make your own living all these people turn around and screech "nooo not like that! You shouldn't be allowed to do that!" And then only date mail order brides that have no support network and have to be 100% dependent on them
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are there any that they don't?
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I disagree that separatism isn't the answer, or at least part of the answer. I think a lot of straight feminists like to shit on separatism because otherwise they have to acknowledge that they are staying with subpar men or situations they're not happy with just to have a man, and that they're not as free from conventional desires and standards of success as they like to think. If you've ever seen a separatism slapfight on tumblr you'll know that first out the gate is accusations of predatory lesbianism or bitterness / crab bucket, because you can't possibly genuinely want to live away from men, even when we're all ostensibly #killallmen or whatever. It's been talked about in I think the femoid thread, most of the time the #killallmen stuff is coming from women with partners, or who are only temporarily single and still looking, not those who have checked out of dating and no longer care.
I would never expect all women to want to get into separatism for obvious reasons, but I think there needs to be more social enabling of the ones that do, as well as, obviously, socially enabling people to be able to get together. Having women who do not want to be there forced into (likely retraumatising) contact with men, as they are now the obviously wounded gazelles in the herd, is just going to keep the polarisation between men and women going. Women who want to escape need options, just like women in dv situations need options to leave, and I basically see separatism as the DV shelter on a societal level. Ideally we wouldn't need it at all, but we do, and maybe after some time in a completely secure environment regaining confidence, women would want to rejoin mainstream society. Some women never will, and the more women are forced to stay and be retraumatised they definitely never will.
There needs to be actual consequences for rapists, and sex offenders of all kinds, who statistically are usually male. There needs to be a way of removing them from the herd once they've actually offended, and that isn't happening anywhere, less than 1% in the UK. I would say that there needs to be male only spaces too, but like MGTOW they tend to not actually go their own way but just rant at women for not giving them what they want. Bit like the partnered feminists, except it's much more of a problem because of the size and aggression disparity, there's no way around that.
Also I agree that society needs to support mothers more, but I wouldn't really have any suggestions for that, not being or intending to become a mother myself.
Generic Name #37
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I think what that poster on ovarit was talking about re: separatism “not being the answer” was likely referring to those who suggest separatism as the first and/or only solution. I agree that separation should be an option for women who want it. The problem is that I would think that the vast majority of women don’t want it, and that her remarks on it being “impossible or a ghetto” are in respect to its global application. It is a fair point to ask what would happen to male children and their mothers in a hypothetical global separatist society, as well well as what the culture of such a hypothetical society should be like, if one is advocating for a universal separation. Just as how, although I understand the value of #killallmen or proposals to kill off some percentage of the male population as a means to vent frustration, I think that such positions should not be taken lightly, and should be given the gravity and careful consideration that one would give such a thing had they the ability to implement it.
I think that sometimes the #killallmen crowd, or those who push separatism as the the primary solution aren’t necessarily being crabs in a bucket, but I do think that their stance is predicated on the assumption that men cannot ever improve. To me, that assumption is defeatist, and doesn’t leave very much room to actually achieve positive steps towards achieving liberation.
Not to say that I think that the job of feminism is to fix men and toxic masculinity. It’s not, that’s our problem and that change will ultimately have to come from within, but I will say that even as a man, fighting against those things is still hard.
As for supporting mothers, some of the most apparent goals that could be advocated for would be things like protecting their ability to be financially independent while also caring for their children, pushing for different modes of work (i.e. remote or hybrid) where available that are more flexible and compatible with caring for their children, eradicating stigmatization of mothers in the workplace that leads to things like firing, or denial of career advancement, making sure that care workers are adequately compensated and that care work is properly valued, and so on.
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