Evergrande Financial Panic - Corona is not the only Contagion China is exporting

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It will serve you well to do the math on the property as an investment because it fundamentally is. Just instead of making you money, it reduces your living expenses.

You can still come out ahead with a depreciating property because it will still be comparable to the guaranteed “deprecation” from paying rent. The longer you stay, the higher your odds of weathering even catastrophic loss of resale value. But if you have to leave when real estate is down or pass significant income increases because you won’t leave, it can be extremely expensive.

Or just take the five year horizon and #yolo.
 
While we're talking about buying houses, if any of you poor bastards are living down under and planning an entry into the housing market you'll especially want to be watching this Evergrande situation. If shit hits the fan in China too hard too quickly, you Aussiebros are fucked: since your ridiculous government is always eager to sell off your land to a literal hostile foreign power, watch as hordes of bugmen start buying up your houses left and right to solidify their assets in overseas investments before their own country's Yuan becomes fucking worthless.
 
Archive

Is it possible they're dragging out the Evergrande default process because they want to play shell games in the background?

WeChat bargain hunters seek profits in China property bond rout

SHANGHAI: In late October, as a growing liquidity crisis across China’s property sector walloped developers’ bonds, a group of Chinese finance professionals got together on the messaging app WeChat to pool their funds and buy the unloved debt.

The first target was a 5.3% January 2022 bond issued by a unit of Yango Group, trading at around half its face value and yielding in excess of 400%. Punters were invited, via WeChat, to pool a minimum of $50,000 each for a chance to double their money, with a downside likely limited at 50%, according to a source who was invited to participate.

Yango, whose Chinese name means Sunshine City, had been hit by a series of credit rating downgrades over its weakened access to funding and would go on to reach agreements with investors to extend other debt payments to avoid a default.

“We have $100,000 secured, if we collect $200,000 it’s READY GO” the organiser told a WeChat group in messages seen by Reuters. Less than an hour later on Oct. 22, the group had collected more than $300,000 as the organizer urged calm - before pitching another group buy of a Greenland Holdings bond.

Yet, since the October WeChat group buy, the price of the Yango unit’s January 2022 bond has fallen more than 50% and the company has extended its repayment date by a year.

Even as worries over the payment abilities of Chinese developers continue to fester, driving the spread - or risk premium - on their riskiest dollar debt to record highs, some investors in China and overseas see similar opportunities in discounted Chinese debt.

The search for bargains has heated up after the selling extended to investment-grade (IG) names, pushing their spreads to a near-seven-month peak, and on hopes that regulators may ease property curbs to avoid a sector-wide collapse. A series of narrow escapes from defaults by China Evergrande Group, whose cash crunch sparked the sell-off, has helped to soothe nerves, though developers have continued to miss or make late payments on their debt.

“The widening of IG spreads provides select opportunities for investors to gain exposure to high quality issuers,” said Shaw Yann Ho, head of Asia fixed income at J.P. Morgan Asset Management, adding that included some better capitalised state-owned firms in a position to snap up distressed assets in the sector.

Recent rating downgrades, such as S&P Global’s move to relegate Shimao Group Holdings to speculative grade, have also helped to clarify risks and could serve to stabilise investment-grade spreads, investors say.

Ho said supportive policies, including faster mortgage approvals and local government efforts to continue infrastructure construction would further benefit investment-grade firms.
 
While we're talking about buying houses, if any of you poor bastards are living down under and planning an entry into the housing market you'll especially want to be watching this Evergrande situation. If shit hits the fan in China too hard too quickly, you Aussiebros are fucked: since your ridiculous government is always eager to sell off your land to a literal hostile foreign power, watch as hordes of bugmen start buying up your houses left and right to solidify their assets in overseas investments before their own country's Yuan becomes fucking worthless.
I won't be surprised if they decide to use Bitcoin asap before the Yuan sink like the Titanic.
 
Archive

Is it possible they're dragging out the Evergrande default process because they want to play shell games in the background?
Of course. The Chinese government is run by Commies. They assume as a matter of principle central planning can control market forces. To think otherwise is wrongthink. They know Evergrande could start the chain reaction so they are putting the screws to its executives. This is to buy time as they frantically look for a way to slowly deflate a bubble they've been inflating since the 90s. You have to admire the brazenness of it though. If not for outright theft and lies it would have gone already. This is now a fascinating case study in the physics of Wile E. Coyote suspended over a canyon.

This is part of the reason they came down so hard on Cryptos. They don't want the native capital to have a way out right now. Which is all well and good, but people forget how reliant China is on foreign resources. Especially for Energy, and all of that is priced in USD. I imagine it is VERY hard now for Chinese firms to get access to dollar denominated bonds. Which means any new production will require cash up front. With 30% of their economy already locked up in their white elephant of a property market this is going to cause them to bleed Yuan abroad anyway. Which will make paying off their domestic bonds even harder.

In other news, the powers that be in Washington are getting increasingly nervous.

 
While we're talking about buying houses, if any of you poor bastards are living down under and planning an entry into the housing market you'll especially want to be watching this Evergrande situation. If shit hits the fan in China too hard too quickly, you Aussiebros are fucked: since your ridiculous government is always eager to sell off your land to a literal hostile foreign power, watch as hordes of bugmen start buying up your houses left and right to solidify their assets in overseas investments before their own country's Yuan becomes fucking worthless.
Aren't they already going to do that? Evergrande is the sinking Titanic and their investors are already fucked, and so are a few other Chinese housing companies, but there's still plenty out there and once they realize this is going to spread, isn't any decently well-off Chinaman going to buy houses globally?

Now yes, the Chinese prefer certain markets (Australia, NZ, West Coast US/Canada, etc.) but at least in the US (and presumably Canada) this has a knock-on effect where the Chinese buying all the homes in LA, Seattle, Vancouver, wherever drive out locals who buy homes elsewhere and drive up housing costs everywhere. Could it be there won't be much of a collapse of housing prices like some expect because Chinese capital flight will cushion the market?
 
Aren't they already going to do that? Evergrande is the sinking Titanic and their investors are already fucked, and so are a few other Chinese housing companies, but there's still plenty out there and once they realize this is going to spread, isn't any decently well-off Chinaman going to buy houses globally?

Now yes, the Chinese prefer certain markets (Australia, NZ, West Coast US/Canada, etc.) but at least in the US (and presumably Canada) this has a knock-on effect where the Chinese buying all the homes in LA, Seattle, Vancouver, wherever drive out locals who buy homes elsewhere and drive up housing costs everywhere. Could it be there won't be much of a collapse of housing prices like some expect because Chinese capital flight will cushion the market?
Maybe, depends on a lot of factors though. The biggest being whether or not Winnie the poo and his fellow comrades will allow capital to flow outside of the chinese market during this meltdown. Right now as far as I know buying property abroad is not illegal or even semi illegal, however currently everyone's eyeing the massive elephant in the room trying to figure out how they're going to get around it without getting crushed. Any potential investors in western housing markets would need free capital anyways, if its already tied up in real-estate in china it's going to be difficult to offload once the bubble truly burst's.
 
Depending on how sideways things go in China, could westerners buy land in China after the meltdown?
 
It is my understanding that nobody can buy land in China.
how does that work exactly? do they have 100 year leases, or some kind of temporary
entrustment to the property?
so functionally you own it, but the government can technically deprive it from you at any given time?
though when billions of people live in china, such a thing is pretty unlikely.
i imagine rural livers probably have more consideration in owning their property in that they serve a very important fucntion.
 
how does that work exactly? do they have 100 year leases, or some kind of temporary
entrustment to the property?
100 years? They wish.
Screenshot 2021-11-16 at 18-40-59 Property law in China - Wikipedia.png
 
how does that work exactly? do they have 100 year leases, or some kind of temporary
entrustment to the property?
so functionally you own it, but the government can technically deprive it from you at any given time?
though when billions of people live in china, such a thing is pretty unlikely.
i imagine rural livers probably have more consideration in owning their property in that they serve a very important fucntion.
Communism sucks.
 
Gotta love Commies. Even when they cheat they can't help but fuck up basic economics. Apparently the CEO of Evergrande has ALREADY been forced to sell off 1.1 Billion in personal assets. Buy did they keep that money on hand to pay off creditors? Nooooooope. It got dumped to maintain operations. Life support for a corpse.

 
Buy did they keep that money on hand to pay off creditors? Nooooooope. It got dumped to maintain operations. Life support for a corpse.
even if they did, it would of bought them 4 months.
though i'd just pay that 4 months and find a way to fake my death within that time and defect to another country. like america, australia, canada.
edit: what the hell was he hoping to accomplish anyway? they're 300 billion in debt, will pumping 1.1 billion earn them enough revenue to pay off their debts at all?
im pretty sure anybody that isn't completely retarded knows continuing to do business with evergrande is a big mistake.
 
even if they did, it would of bought them 4 months.
though i'd just pay that 4 months and find a way to fake my death within that time and defect to another country. like america, australia, canada.
What is moronic is trying use that money to keep the company operating is akin to putting it the middle of a field and setting it on fire. The CCP spent it all to maintain the illusion of "nothing to see here" when what they needed to do was keep that stolen cash in the bank to help unwind the company and pay off creditors, which is where the actual systemic damage lies. Admittedly 1 Billion dollars is a drop in the ocean for how much they actually owe which on paper is 300 Billion.

It makes me wonder if they have not been entirely honest about how much Evergrande owes and to who. This would be shocking to everyone I know. Why would a Chinese company lie?
 
Depending on how sideways things go in China, could westerners buy land in China after the meltdown?
Maybe if there's a massive change in government policy, which I guess is possible since the collapse of Evergrande primarily effects the Chinese people who use real estate as their only investment vehicle.

The CCP maintains power with it's citizens cause it keeps the quality of life the same or on an upward trend for the majority of people. Basically the same way oil states work, people put with the oppressive regime and in exchange the government keeps the status quo. If that gets fucked up then maybe people stop being okay with Big Brother.

I'd say more likely if there was some massive collapse of Evergrande then China launches some war they've had planned for a while now, either with Taiwan or India, to distract everyone with patriotic fervor.
 
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