Dragon Age: The Veilguard - A woke disaster? Yep!

[Ishtar]

Ah I see, I misread your post.

Apologies.

 

[BlankSpaceBaby]

Yeah, if you kill off Bull's groupies, you basically send him back to the arms of the Qun, so you really deserve Bull's betrayal - you are the one whose logic led him to that path after all. It's one of the character arc in Dragon Age: Inquisition related to the Iron Bull that I actually like. Your action, your bed, so you lie on it.

Off topic, but one of the most hilarious companion-related drama was Star Wars: The Old Republic, when the Sith lord story lets the player kill Malavai Quinn for his betrayal... and then there were players that were FURIOUS because Quinn, the only companion that could heal for that story, stayed dead after he was killed. HOW DARE BIOWARE LET THE COMPANION THAT THEY CHOSE TO KILL GET ACTUALLY KILLED AND STAY DEAD!!!

They later had to switch things so that you "only" choke Quinn for his betrayal, but it did show me the mindset of some fans. They want to have all the choices in the world, but few want to bear the consequences of their decisions!

 

[LazyLizard]

Iron Bull's entire story is about his conflicted allegiances-he's been far from the Qun for too long, so much so that Gatt tells him flat out his superiors are concerned and already half think he has defected.

When you side with the Qun over the chargers-its basically telling IB "welp I guess the Qun is what matters-greater good right"-so he recommits himself to the Qun. Because the damn inquisitor has just demonstrated they believe in Qunari logic-sacrificing individual life and desire for the greater whole.

DAI is largely about identity and deception(among other things)-for Iron Bull, that's expressed in, "who am I, Hissrad or Iron Bull"-"Ben Hassrath agent or mercenary captain who loves womanizing and drinking"

By killing the chargers-you remove any loyalty or affiliation Bull has with anyone outside the Qun-so he rededicates himself to the Qun and his betrayal is absolutely telegraphed. Because its either his identity as Iron Bull and affection for the found family-that makes up the Iron Bull identity, or he is "Hissrad" after all.

I mean he tells you that he went back for "re education" after 8 years in Seheron-(basically Thedas' Vietnam/Afghanistan). So if there was nothing pulling him away from the Qun-he is going to recommit himself to it.

Its genuinely baffling that I understood this in just one playthrough but you people don't.

i know you think you're some sherlock holmes for figuring this out but guess what we figured it out too, it's not hard to understand but it's still bad writing, he's a badly written character and he and his chargers ruins qunari lore.

 

[Ishtar]

How so? Beyond the Krem trans' stuff? Sten IIRC actually went through a little "re education" anyway when he got back.

IB's entire identity crisis is also directly in line with Sten's entire point-that being Qunari identity is tied to occupation and social role. Everything from the Tamassrans deciding on where you fit, to the rejection of love/family. Iron Bull is working in Orlais-sending intelligence reports back to the Qunari, which we know-from DA2 with Tallis being a Qunari convert.

If you actually listen to Sten's actual dialogue, or the Arishok's, for the most part IB is consistent throughout.

People don't like it-I am guessing because bisexual/trans buddy.

Which is especially odd to me-given the Qunari have never been portrayed as some uber masculine or traditional culture-they are basically Plato's Republic mixed with fourier's idealist socialism and a few other ideas.

The only change in Qunari lore is the trans stuff-"women don't fight". (And even that is taken overly literally by people who forget the Qunari were always an alien society that don't see gender roles through a Thedasian/Western european lens).*

*Sten also follows a female warden, and will even say "one of those things can't be true"-in response to a female HoF saying "I am a woman who is fighting". So again-Qunari conceptions of gender are tied to occupation and practice, not strict biology.

TLDR: Qunari social mores have consistently been portrayed as alien from (Western) social norms, how the Qunari organize society, how they treat issues of family, identity and purpose, etc... Iron Bull is entirely in line with that(barring a bit of creative retconning for the trans character).

 

[Prophetic Spirit]

Imagine how based was the Warden of mentioning in subsequent games.
If is a human mage, is Hawke's 2nd cousin.
If romanced, either Leliana or Morrigan sweets talk about him in DAI.
Too based.

 

[TheAmbiguousLurker]

Yeah, if you kill off Bull's groupies, you basically send him back to the arms of the Qun, so you really deserve Bull's betrayal - you are the one whose logic led him to that path after all. It's one of the character arc in Dragon Age: Inquisition related to the Iron Bull that I actually like. Your action, your bed, so you lie on it.

Off topic, but one of the most hilarious companion-related drama was Star Wars: The Old Republic, when the Sith lord story lets the player kill Malavai Quinn for his betrayal... and then there were players that were FURIOUS because Quinn, the only companion that could heal for that story, stayed dead after he was killed. HOW DARE BIOWARE LET THE COMPANION THAT THEY CHOSE TO KILL GET ACTUALLY KILLED AND STAY DEAD!!!

They later had to switch things so that you "only" choke Quinn for his betrayal, but it did show me the mindset of some fans. They want to have all the choices in the world, but few want to bear the consequences of their decisions!

And then people complained about not being able to kill him, so years later the devs overcorrected by just suddenly letting you kill Quinn out of nowhere for a betrayal you already punished him for several years ago by this point. Like, he's returning to your side and, if you've chosen to side against the Empire, he's throwing out his entire career just to serve you again. I get wanting to kill him, but in-universe your guy has the most insane delayed reaction.

Or maybe the player character just got frustrated trying to figure out how Quinn and Dorne planted a bomb in the same place at the same time without bumping into each other.

 

[StacticShock]

Yeah, if you kill off Bull's groupies, you basically send him back to the arms of the Qun, so you really deserve Bull's betrayal - you are the one whose logic led him to that path after all. It's one of the character arc in Dragon Age: Inquisition related to the Iron Bull that I actually like. Your action, your bed, so you lie on it.

except the fact this gay bed was made by the devs without my consent.
so yeah, fuck iron faggot and anyone that likes him, including his gay brigade.
FUCK THEM ALL AND NOT IN A SEXUAL WAY.

Imagine how based was the Warden of mentioning in subsequent games.
If is a human mage, is Hawke's 2nd cousin.
If romanced, either Leliana or Morrigan sweets talk about him in DAI.
Too based.

warden has teh honeyed d.

i know you think you're some sherlock holmes for figuring this out but guess what we figured it out too, it's not hard to understand but it's still bad writing, he's a badly written character and he and his chargers ruins qunari lore.

not to mention the weird lack of spacing in his quest, dude can't catch a hint and ends up banging dorian if you tell him to back off repeatedly, sera is more kept on the down low though since she has issues if you play as a male inquisitor but lord help you if you play female, she's like the iron faggot but girl...
funny enough dorian is the most down low fags of the three, he only gets his family issues on his personal quest and tries to keep his gayness repressed otherwise.

a watered down version of them are in ME3 with traynor and cortez but this is why all 5 of them stick like a sore thumb, the devs were known for writing characters with depth but they make 5 token gay characters with the depth of a fucking puddle and every single fucking steleotype about fags.

only for them to quadruple down on the retardation in veilguard, this shit is fucking painful and i'm not even a bioware fan.

 

[Waifuchu]

Iron Bull's entire story is about his conflicted allegiances-he's been far from the Qun for too long, so much so that Gatt tells him flat out his superiors are concerned and already half think he has defected.

When you side with the Qun over the chargers-its basically telling IB "welp I guess the Qun is what matters-greater good right"-so he recommits himself to the Qun. Because the damn inquisitor has just demonstrated they believe in Qunari logic-sacrificing individual life and desire for the greater whole.

DAI is largely about identity and deception(among other things)-for Iron Bull, that's expressed in, "who am I, Hissrad or Iron Bull"-"Ben Hassrath agent or mercenary captain who loves womanizing and drinking"

By killing the chargers-you remove any loyalty or affiliation Bull has with anyone outside the Qun-so he rededicates himself to the Qun and his betrayal is absolutely telegraphed. Because its either his identity as Iron Bull and affection for the found family-that makes up the Iron Bull identity, or he is "Hissrad" after all.

I mean he tells you that he went back for "re education" after 8 years in Seheron-(basically Thedas' Vietnam/Afghanistan). So if there was nothing pulling him away from the Qun-he is going to recommit himself to it.

Its genuinely baffling that I understood this in just one playthrough but you people don't.

I understand the "in-story" reasons perfectly well, as complex and subtle as Weekes' masterful narrative plotting is, thanks,

I don't like Weekes, shockingly, but there was a pre-Veilguard period where he actually had a modicum of writing talent (as well as a proper human name). He was responsible for some genuinely good moments in both Dragon Age and Mass Effect. I'm not accusing him of coming up with a silly contrivance to shock players with some kind of sudden plot twist that doesn't make any sense if someone thinks about it. Yes, pushing Iron Bull in a direction that emphasizes his loyalty to the Qunari at the expense of everything else in his life, logically leads to him being more loyal to the Qun than to the player character. It's an entirely sensible, non-arbitrary reason to kill off a party member, just as narratively sound as a non-befriended Zevran turning against the player in exchange for a pardon from the Crows.

DAI was before Weekes dyed his hair, changed his name, and devoted every fiber of his being to his chosen idpol cult, and so his in-universe writing choices are generally sound enough for shit like "The Qun says twans rights!" sticks out like a sore thumb. Good for him.

My point is that I don't believe that the "Bull betrays you in the DLC" plot point only exists for the purposes of the narrative. Can I prove this? Not really, but everything about Veilguard has proven that Weekes doesn't have any integrity as a writer, and so I don't think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. Iron Bull is his character who will go into uncomfortable detail about BDSM, who hangs out with totally valid pooners, and who delivers the aforementioned Qunari trannies retcon... And if you make a choice that kills off those mercenaries and makes Iron Bull turn on you with fatal consequences... Then that's the wrong choice, and you must be doing some kind of pure evil run.

Most casual players avoid options that kill off party members like the plague. That's the point. No different than how you can't get the "good" ending in Veilguard if you don't recruit and interact with all the companions. It's why "God, those Nazis are such snowflakes. Don't they even know that they don't need to recruit Taash?" is so disingenuous.

 

[Mola Ram]

Most casual players avoid options that kill off party members like the plague. That's the point. No different than how you can't get the "good" ending in Veilguard if you don't recruit and interact with all the companions. It's why "God, those Nazis are such snowflakes. Don't they even know that they don't need to recruit Taash?" is so disingenuous.

There's one metagame element that I think doesn't quite fit your argument. If Iron Bull dies in Trespasser, you're not really losing a party member, as nothing takes him out of the base game (he never leaves or dies once recruited) and he doesn't die in the DLC until the very last quest. If you took him with you into the Darvaraad then you're kind of screwed for the final battle, but that's really the worst of it. You can always reload and replace him with someone else. It's more he got a bad ending, which is easier for the audience to swallow than, say, going through half of Mass Effect (and both sequels) with a dead Wrex.

His betrayal has a noticeable emotional effect on your party, and an Inquisitor who romanced him even gets a nice little scene of pathos. Then you have Solas mocking you for being naive enough to overlook Qunari infiltration in the Inquisition: "Perhaps we should ask your friend, the Iron Bull. Tell me, where is he?" It's one of the sharper moments in the DLC.

I don't dispute Weekes is a shithead, but it's worth remembering this game was in the can for years before the crushing wokeness of Current Year completely hollowed out BioWare. Although he might have had petty reasons for killing Bull off depending on player actions, what's in Trespasser strikes me as a sincere bit of storytelling and consequences.

 

[Ishtar]

If you take Bull with you-at worst your losing a party member for the last thirty minutes or so of game play.

You fight him right before you free or kill the Ataashi(the dragon the viddasala is making poison from)-and then you go to the Fen’harel temple ruins.

So you’re down to two party members. It’s not going to meaningfully affect your ability to finish the game. Unless you have your party specced in some ultra specific way you can’t beat the Saarebas boss fight without him for some reason.

So yeah I think it’s a good showing of consequences.

 

[Mola Ram]

So you’re down to two party members. It’s not going to meaningfully affect your ability to finish the game. Unless you have your party specced in some ultra specific way you can’t beat the Saarebas boss fight without him for some reason.

Between the gear you find in Trespasser and being maxed out at 27th level you should absolutely shithouse the last half hour of gameplay.

 

[LazyLizard]

DAI was before Weekes dyed his hair, changed his name, and devoted every fiber of his being to his chosen idpol cult, and so his in-universe writing choices are generally sound enough for shit like "The Qun says twans rights!" sticks out like a sore thumb. Good for him.

it's bad enough that they forced trans shit into Dragon Age but they could literally not have picked a worse faction to do it in, the Qunari are the super serious communist brainwashing cult that don't let women be warriors and won't even let you change jobs yet they let you change genders? they would 100% have either brainwashed or killed Krem. i'm guessing they were the tranny's favorite faction and that's why they were chosen to push it even though it makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Waifuchu]

There's one metagame element that I think doesn't quite fit your argument. If Iron Bull dies in Trespasser, you're not really losing a party member, as nothing takes him out of the base game (he never leaves or dies once recruited) and he doesn't die in the DLC until the very last quest. If you took him with you into the Darvaraad then you're kind of screwed for the final battle, but that's really the worst of it. You can always reload and replace him with someone else. It's more he got a bad ending, which is easier for the audience to swallow than, say, going through half of Mass Effect (and both sequels) with a dead Wrex.

Sure, and from a purely mechanical, in-game perspective, sparing Loghain, crowning Anora, and letting Alistair be executed doesn't hit you with any gameplay consequences, since his slot in the party is filled by a mechanically-identical sword-and-shield warrior... But outside of evil runs, or maybe dedicated "Get as many named NPCS killed as possible" challenge runs, nobody actually does that. I've never even seen Loghain-enjoyers vouch for that option. It's always the much softer option, where they get Alistair and Anora married, he still gets to be king, and also Loghain replaces him in the party.

I don't think there were zero ulterior motives at play when Weekes wrote that part of the DLC, but the guy was actually a competent writer before Veilguard. Apparently, he was the one who wrote a lot of the Tuchanka arc in ME3, to give him credit where it's due. The Iron Bull bit in the DLC is a genuinely well-done and logical way for things to play out.

it's bad enough that they forced trans shit into Dragon Age but they could literally not have picked a worse faction to do it in, the Qunari are the super serious communist brainwashing cult that don't let women be warriors and won't even let you change jobs yet they let you change genders? they would 100% have either brainwashed or killed Krem. i'm guessing they were the tranny's favorite faction and that's why they were chosen to push it even though it makes absolutely no sense.

With how overly-detailed and unnecessary the BDSM details in the Iron Bull romance are, it reeks of being his writer's fetish, and coincidentally, Iron Bull is also the poster child for retconning the less savory aspects of Qunari culture to be more positive and accepting and diverse. Aaaaaand then in the sequel, right at the same time that "Trick" is having is midlife-crisis and declaring himself to be genderless, the Qunari character in that game is also a stunning and valid non binary, who is beyond reproach.

 

[Ishtar]

The Iron Bull romance to me always seemed like just rough and tumble sex, with the inquisitor being the sub-as a way to ease stress you know, being in charge of the inquisition.

The actual BDSM elements felt more implied or relatively tame.

 

[BlankSpaceBaby]

@Waifuchu It's worse because the Inquisitor is written to be the clear sub in that relationship. There is a real danger of the Dom and sub dynamics seeping into the relationship outside of the bedroom if the sub is inexperienced and the Dom is manipulative (the Iron Bull is a spy, so...)


... So why is Cullen, who was there when the Qunari sacked Kirkwall, and Cassandra who knew about this are all LOL SO CUTE AND SO SEXY when they caught the Bull and the Inquisitor in a most compromising situation? Weekes is really inserting his O QUNARI IS SEXY FUCK ME NOW fetish here.

 

[Prophetic Spirit]

@Waifuchu It's worse because the Inquisitor is written to be the clear sub in that relationship. There is a real danger of the Dom and sub dynamics seeping into the relationship outside of the bedroom if the sub is inexperienced and the Dom is manipulative (the Iron Bull is a spy, so...)


... So why is Cullen, who was there when the Qunari sacked Kirkwall, and Cassandra who knew about this are all LOL SO CUTE AND SO SEXY when they caught the Bull and the Inquisitor in a most compromising situation? Weekes is really inserting his O QUNARI IS SEXY FUCK ME NOW fetish here.

Oh man, what a bullet i dodged by not being gay.
Always pissing off both Iron Bull & Dorian, never against Cass or Josephine. Both are pretty good.

 

[Ishtar]

https://www.tumblr.com/felassan/782820726027730944?source=share

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v9SIGTLHF0

Mark Darrah explains 2017 was a turning point at BioWare, I haven't watched the full video but the gist seems to be-the people in charge really wanted Anthem to take off, Casey Hudson coming back only further stretched the studio's resources, the people in charge of MEA weren't interested in its success or failure, and basically the company culture was wracked with indifference, dishonesty and trend chasing.

 

[Heckler1]

The only reason I don't like Iron Bull is because he has a weirdly small head and a weird face. He is an uggo.

I think the actual bad part of the trans Quanari stuff is that it is very lazy. Instead of having some sort of interesting alien perspective on gender roles, it just turns into modern day muh genderisms.

 

[Mola Ram]

I think the actual bad part of the trans Quanari stuff is that it is very lazy.

And yet as lazy as it is in Inquisition, it's downright Tolkienian worldbuilding compared to Taash's "nonbinary journey" in Veilguard.

They're trying to blame it all on EA and BioWare itself favoring other projects over DA. Don't believe them.

 

[Ishtar]

I can absolutely believe Gaider on this-given he's been gone for nearly a decade. Dragon Age unlike Mass Effect lacks a central protagonist, and even tone and art direction shift wildly every game. (Which shows to me, they never quite knew what they wanted to do with the game).

They're trying to blame it all on EA and BioWare itself favoring other projects over DA. Don't believe them.

We know for a fact this game was rebooted twice, and multiple staff were laid off or pushed out from 2015 to 2022. We know BioWare was enamored with live service titles and the notion that EA preferred Mass Effect as more easily marketable is pretty intuitive to me.

One doesn't have to defend DAV's writing choices to realize all the above is true and affected the game's quality in very obvious ways.