Dragon Age: The Veilguard - A woke disaster? Yep!

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Are u woke enough for this game?

  • Hell yeah, I want play it with my wife's son

    Votes: 170 9.4%
  • Nope, I need to suck more girlcock first

    Votes: 393 21.8%
  • Yasss, I identify as an autistic dwarf of color

    Votes: 377 20.9%
  • Nah, I rather play Fallout76

    Votes: 862 47.8%

  • Total voters
    1,803
Companies do this all the time. They buy a company, fuck things up, and declare it a total loss. This happens every time EA closes a studio they acquired.

Bioware is a toxic brand now. They haven't released a successful game in 11 years, and DAI would have flopped if it was released after TW3. Making another Bioware game would be like making another Star Wars movie. Even if it were good, the audience would either be young people who think "yeah those are boomer games" or boomers who are aging out of gaming or have a bad taste in their mouth due to girldick or the perception that Bioware is no longer stuffing girldick down everyone's throats.
Yeah i think you're spot on with your analysis. I'm saying it's bc of that long history of killing studios they really don't want to do it here. The media will frame it rightly as EA destroying value wherever it goes, and by closing it, EA admits to the market they destroyed BioWare, which is probably a $1-$2bn asset. their stock price would plunge.

So even if they never publish a bioware game again, much safer for them to keep BioWare going as a skeleton crew until they decide to try again with DA or ME. In the meantime execs have great talking points with investors by credibly teasing new DA/ME games out of BioWare. Then they never have to admit they killed it. Westwood or whatever was never material enough to skinsuit.
 
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Oh, you know, it's because the game needed microtransaction lootboxes for that "sEnSe oF aCoMpLiShMeNt" or whatever the dumbass meme phrase was.

They genuinely want a something they only need to publish once and it just continuously milks the same people over and over, especially whales, and eventually just becomes a free money printing machine.
That's hilarious. Wasn't it just slightly over a decade ago that EA's high-budget live service releases bombed and EA had to scramble to fix several other upcoming releases to support single-player in the middle of their development? It's also like they refuse to accept the concept of the "attention economy" that is becoming more splittered with every passing year. The market can only support a few multiplayer live-service games without diluting the playerbase too much. EA definitely hopes to break into this ecosystem, but given how there are so many strongly established games in the market and how EA is already infamous for its monetization practices I can't see how this would work out for them. This would go as well as trying to compete with Spotify and Youtube for online music and video streaming.

EA is only able to hold its dominance in the annually released sports gacha game genre because they're already the dominant player in that market and competitors are kept out with licensing issues.
 
it did not resonate with a broad-enough audience in this highly competitive market.
A very creative way of saying 'we packed the game with unavoidable obnoxious Current Year gender politics that only resonates with 0.001% of the population'
- competitive dynamics of the single-player RPG market (such as?)
I think it's marketing speak for 'Baldur's Gate 3 ruined us and we don't have the talent to compete'
Do you see any benefit to them in formally killing BioWare or any of its key IPs?
It's never stopped EA in the past. Unless Bioware have it somewhere in the contract that they hold onto their IPs there's nothing stopping EA from axing the studio and putting the respective IPs on ice like they did with Dead Space for a decade.
 
I think the issue is simply the writers having too much control over the game and not being as interested in the adventure aspect. They want to focus on their writing and creating an interactive movie, rather than create an adventure that the player enjoys. But at the same time, they're really mediocre writers so it can't even achieve the same status as some walking simulators.
Pretty much this.
In some ways it doesn't matter that they're not terribly good writers (don't scowl, I'm trying to be more charitable this month) because even good writers will produce shit if they forget the cardinal rule of RPGs: You are not telling a story. You are creating a world for the PLAYER to tell a story.

It is the complete antithesis of your typical wokescold bullshit, so of course they failed.
 
In some ways it doesn't matter that they're not terribly good writers (don't scowl, I'm trying to be more charitable this month) because even good writers will produce shit if they forget the cardinal rule of RPGs: You are not telling a story. You are creating a world for the PLAYER to tell a story.
I think the three Star Wars trilogies are good representations of each outcome.

For the original trilogy, George Lucas had the studio tard wrangling him and also talented people whispering in his ear 'no George, don't do that. That's fucking stupid.' so for the most part those films turned out great.

For the prequels, George was given complete creative control over every aspect and it was a total fucking mess because everyone was too scared to tell him how stupid it all was.

For the Disney trilogy, nobody had any idea what to do so they threw in a little bit of everything that was en vogue at the time along with a bunch of memberberries in the hope nobody would notice it was all total shit.

I think Veilguard started out on the Disney path but at some point pivoted into prequel territory, probably when that gross troon took the reins of the project.
 
I think the three Star Wars trilogies are good representations of each outcome.

For the original trilogy, George Lucas had the studio tard wrangling him and also talented people whispering in his ear 'no George, don't do that. That's fucking stupid.' so for the most part those films turned out great.

For the prequels, George was given complete creative control over every aspect and it was a total fucking mess because everyone was too scared to tell him how stupid it all was.

For the Disney trilogy, nobody had any idea what to do so they threw in a little bit of everything that was en vogue at the time along with a bunch of memberberries in the hope nobody would notice it was all total shit.

I think Veilguard started out on the Disney path but at some point pivoted into prequel territory, probably when that gross troon took the reins of the project.
Agree in spirit, but disagree on Star Wars.

Original trilogy benefited by George needing to collaborate with tons of others who could add little touches here and there to help flesh out the universe.

For the prequels, George wanted enough control and green screens that there was less opportunity for random people to think "hey what if we add this goofy little thing in the background of this scene?". Ended up making a lot of the universe feel dead since to add any random character in the background you'd often need someone to design the entire cgi for it rather than just get a costume made.

Like how many times did they have characters walking down hallways that were huge and almost devoid of people? Lot of places didn't feel lived in.

no-film-no-video-no-tv-no-documentary-krtabaca-34565-4-los-angeles-ca-usa-08052002-jedi-master...jpg

Disney trilogy went to hell because JJ Abrams setup a simple mystery box plot in the first movie, so it'd be easy to continue on, only to end up with Disney deciding to get a director involved for the second movie who did the obnoxious millennial writing bullshit of tearing down tropes without building up reasons why, so figured it'd be the greatest thing ever to unveil the mystery box as empty.

Their styles didn't mesh well and Rian's particularly doesn't work well for a series involving old style heroes.

Where there is a similarity between Veilguard and Disneywars is that things got thrown off by the makers (Rian and the game writers) not remembering you're supposed to build up fun and cool shit, rather than using their platforms to act like scolds (Rian acting like it's retarded to have some legends or heroic shit while the Veilguard writers thought it was epic to lecture about pronouns).
 

EA is taking all the wrong lessons from DAV’s failure.

Incredible.

They have BG3 as an example that single player RPG narrative games still have a sustainable market.

What are these execs smoking?

I think the three Star Wars trilogies are good representations of each outcome.

For the original trilogy, George Lucas had the studio tard wrangling him and also talented people whispering in his ear 'no George, don't do that. That's fucking stupid.' so for the most part those films turned out great.

For the prequels, George was given complete creative control over every aspect and it was a total fucking mess because everyone was too scared to tell him how stupid it all was.

For the Disney trilogy, nobody had any idea what to do so they threw in a little bit of everything that was en vogue at the time along with a bunch of memberberries in the hope nobody would notice it was all total shit.

I think Veilguard started out on the Disney path but at some point pivoted into prequel territory, probably when that gross troon took the reins of the project.
And yet the prequels’ reputation has only improved over time. Largely due to younger audiences without OT based preconceptions but also I think for the films themselves.
 
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EA seems to think “the future” is live service games. I mean I guess if they are stuck in 2018 that was true, but surely they should know better?

I don’t get it. BG3 had the same core audience as Dragon Age(people who like to play fantasy rpgs) and it is still going strong.

It’s just insane to me that a game company could be so out of touch with the market it’s competing in.
 
EA seems to think “the future” is live service games. I mean I guess if they are stuck in 2018 that was true, but surely they should know better?
You'd think so, but i wouldn't want to be the CEO who told shareholders "yeah, that live service license to print money thing was a bubble, not a long-term strategy."
It’s just insane to me that a game company could be so out of touch with the market it’s competing in.
Given their sales, "competing" might be overselling it a bit.
 
I think the three Star Wars trilogies are good representations of each outcome.

For the original trilogy, George Lucas had the studio tard wrangling him and also talented people whispering in his ear 'no George, don't do that. That's fucking stupid.' so for the most part those films turned out great.

For the prequels, George was given complete creative control over every aspect and it was a total fucking mess because everyone was too scared to tell him how stupid it all was.

For the Disney trilogy, nobody had any idea what to do so they threw in a little bit of everything that was en vogue at the time along with a bunch of memberberries in the hope nobody would notice it was all total shit.

I think Veilguard started out on the Disney path but at some point pivoted into prequel territory, probably when that gross troon took the reins of the project.
There was a reddit thread talking about how poor Lucas did everything in the prequel trilogy. Specific a scene with anakin and Palpatine in the council floating thing? Anakin face does this like weird thing....uncanny valley. Anyone know what I mean

Veilguard was way too safe in its content. Like look at the first two games. There's a kill bill style bride origin with rape and revenge, everything at ostagar including the joining and the consequences for not doing it, Leliana and her origin story, the dwarf succession plotline, etc.
 
What are these execs smoking?
Those "people" are soulless, walking suits who are completely out of touch with their own product. I guarantee you that Andrew Wilson has never played a video game in his life. It really is that simple. They see that [insert GaaS game here] is printing money, so they think that they can get a piece of that pie, while being utterly blind to why that particular game works, and to all the other GaaS games that crashed and burned.

It's the same with movies. The DCEU is a great example. They saw what Marvel had and wanted the same thing, without understanding that the MCU was built from the ground up over the course of several standalone movies, which took a few years. But the suits don't think in years, they think in quarters.
 
I do think DAV is a continuation of some of the bad trends Inquisition accelerated. The shift away from dark to “high” fantasy, Inquisition is about as dark as Lord of the Rings(though maybe a little less actually). To DAV’s cozy wholesome vibe.

The inquisitor is a blank slate character whose background has zero impact on the narrative beyond a few war table missions and some dialogue options.

Where inquisition succeeds is it has a genuinely compelling cast(mostly) an interesting set of political and religious subplots and themes and some damn good DLCs.

But the overall trend from Origins has been away from dark fantasy. dA2 is…sort of less dark than origins. You can still sell a companion into slavery and and be a jackass, and Hawke’s story is a tragedy, but there isn’t the same ambient grimness of Origins. Or at least it’s not as present. Then again DA2’s more limited scope I think makes a comparison a bit harder. Hawke loses at the end. And suffers tragedies galore-but there is still nothing like killing a possessed kid. (Though you can kill a dalish clan-albeit they attack you).

BioWare writers have literally talked about this-how they are proud to have moved away from Origins’ tropes and storytelling.

I don’t know if I’d commit to the argument but I’d tentatively say that DAV is a culmination of the worst trends in the series.

I’d also say that the game took too long. It should have come out in 2018/2019. When hype was at its highest. As opposed to a decade.

Really there are multiple things that could be discussed in the series post mortem.

Just to give a brief listing.

1. Origins not having planned sequels meant that further games basically ignored and evaded actually engaging with any of the choices in Origins-Awakening beyond superficial acknowledgements. This is definitely the case in say Orzammar.
2. The lack of aesthetic consistency. Across all four games-tone and atmosphere do vary wildly. Art styles change every game.
3. The lack of a single protagonist. While multiple protagonists are basically a trademark of the series, it makes creating a single recognizable narrative much harder when you have to keep up with different PCs.
4. As above-DA doesn’t really have a set plot, at best Gaider and co. had the setting’s mythology worked out and a general outline of where the series would go. But even in the best case scenario-five or six games, you’re looking at a series that is just loosely connected which hampers its mainstream appeal.
5. The fandom. Tumblr is a cancer and you see this in DA fan spaces. Everything from Alistair is a POC to “mages are absolutely right and Anders is like John Brown and if you remotely think that maybe mages should be IdK regulated you are like a Nazi”-these attitudes I think did influence the writers, who both felt compelled to pander to this and shifted the game to evade criticism from the tumblr crowd.
6. The series really doesn’t have a clear identity. Like yes all the games deal with political and religious themes, social oppression, prejudice, etc… but none of this is easily summarized. Mass Effect is Shepherd fighting reapers, SW is the Jedi Sith dance, Star Trek new civilizations, DA as a franchise really doesn’t have a “core” the same way. There is no overarching antagonist. The blight, Meredith, Corypheus, Solas/the Evanuris are at best only connected via IDK the blight I guess? Vaguely? Like, who are the main villains in dragon age? The executors? (Ironically the executors strike me as an attempt to try to actually link all the games together into some sort of cohesive story. The problem is-it’s stupid and undercuts the pathos of Loghain, Bartrand, Meredith and others. Something that (rightfully) caused fan outcry.

In short, while I do love DA-I think we can look back at it now that it’s basically dead, and acknowledge there were a lot of structural problems that always existed. In my view anyway-that required basically Origins and DA2’s writers to manage and as that declined-the series was a car sliding off the road without a driver. And you get DAV.
 
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@Ishtar

I actually think DA could have worked as a series of installments following different protagonists in seperate parts of the world whose stories intersect with major events of Thedas's Dragon Age. In fact I think this structure was what Bioware was aiming for initially - the Warden was at the heart of the Fifth Blight, Hawke became pivotal to the beginning of the Mage-Templar War, etc. Inquisition majorly abandoned this structure by wrapping up all these plotlines off-screen and introducing this grand meta-narrative with Solas & the elves; Bioware subsequently shot themselves in the foot by explaining every aspect of the setting's lore via shit like the Titans and the Evanuris, which I refuse to believe was planned by Gaider from the very beginning in its entirety. If the series was to have an overall meta-narrative while telling individual stories, I don't see why Bioware didn't stick with the cosmic horror of the Blights and the Grey Wardens - you could even connect elven and dwarven lore into that theme without reducing everything to "the elves and the Illuminati across the sea did it", which only served to remove all depth and scale from the series' world. Imagine how cool a small scale game following the Warden investigating the Calling alongside the Architect would have been? Thedas is such a fertile setting and the writers abandon it at every turn - a proper non-Tal Vasoth Qunari hero, a Tevinter magister investigating the Old Golds, etc. Back in Origins Sten was setting up a Qunari invasion of Fereldan that Inquisition basically butchered, but a non-pozzed Qunari invasion of Thedas paired with an apocalyptic and simultaneous 6th and 7th Blights would have been a phenomenal apex to the series' story as a whole and a great utilisation of every race, lore element, theme, etc.

I also agree that you don't need a seperate protagonist for each game. The Inquisitor could have easily been the Hawke, and Veilguard should have had the Inquisitor as its protagonist as Rook has no connection to Solas or the elven lore like the Inquisitor.
 
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I think the Evanuris and titan stuff was planned-at least in concept actually. In how much detail is harder to say, but I don’t think it was invented later.

But I agree with the gist of the rest of your post.

To give some basic foreshadowing examples.

Tamlen goes through the eluvian and says “it” saw him. This is probably a reference to the Blight itself which appears to be conscious in some fashion.

Also in the dalish origin-it’s stated Elgar’nan drove the dwarves from the surface.

The mixture of Tevinter and elvish architecture in the Dalish origin and the Brecilian forest does indicate there is a deeper connection between the two.

DA2-Sundermount, think of the name Skyhold. It was where Solas formed the Veil. Sunder mount is where Solas(and Mythal) sundered the Titans.

The rock wraiths in the deep roads-there’s. Codex entry that seems to describe the hunger and madness afflicting the dwarves once the titans were cut off from them.

Hybris-a pride demon boss fight in Act 3 of o DA2 makes allusions to thrones and those beyond the veil-in retrospect he is referring to the imprisoned Evanuris.

I’d have to check again-but apparently even the Darkspawn are referred to as dreams? Or something in the dwarven origin or during a conversation with Wynne.
Also demons and fade entities struggle to see the Darkspawn or those touched by the blight(Connor notably says he “can’t see” the warden while possessed) meaning that the blight-voided dreams as a concept seems to have existed in some form.

Corypheus in both DA2 and DAI states the golden city was already black, and all he found was silence, whispers and corruption. Also his gods weren’t there. Why? With DAV’s reveal it would make sense that Dumat was simply used by Dirthamen or whoever to trick the magisters. (And was then slain in the first blight anyway).

I don’t particularly like the Old gods=horcrux familiars. But I do concede that it is foreshadowed a little-in Inquisition, Cassandra asks if the Archdemons are “pets to beings that no longer exists” Solas evades the question and says “I wouldn’t say that” and then goes off on how Corypheus’ dragon is a pale imitation of the real thing. Also Origins is never entirely clear on what they are-the possibility they are just corrupted high dragons is given.

So in summary-I think the setting’s cosmology was actually established from the get go. The only real mystery is the Qunari-which DAV seemed to set up for more in a fifth game.

While not much-inquisition does establish the dragon connection(though Taash breathing fire is stupid regardless). The Qunari fleeing the devouring storm is maybe hinted at a little? Given the Qunari’s arrival in the storm age, and storm terminology is used-in DA2 I think in association with them? It’s not much and we’ll never know for certain. (Unless some BioWare writer decides to tell). But the Qunari’s origin being something other than what they know is congruent with the rest of the series.

Lore sperging over, I’d actually say there is fairly solid evidence that the setting’s cosmology was established before hand, at least the broad strokes.
 
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