Disney General - The saddest fandom on Earth

[Gar For Archer]

I think part of the problem I have with Frozen‘s sister dynamic is that it worked better in their earlier drafts of the story when Elsa was more antagonistic (but not a villain) by the second act and the central emotional conflict revolved around the bitterness and resentment that built up between Elsa & Anna over a lifetime of miscommunication.

The cut song "Life’s Too Short" and its reprisal are stronger than "For The First Time In Forever" reprise musically & narratively imo, and the time they had to waste making Hans into the new Disney villain only weakened the sisters’ storyline, and I always thought the shift to make Elsa more anxious rather than repressed just made her look kinda selfish when compared to her making her younger sister attend their parents’ funeral alone. Although hands down I think Elsa’s stage musical song “Monster" is leagues better than "Let It Go."

I've always thought Hans was completely wasted by making it so that he was always evil from the very start, when this POV is contradicted by a lot of his actions throughout the movie. I think he would've been a lot more interesting of a character if he were instead portrayed as opportunistic but genuinely caring.

Like, his backstory is that he's the youngest of 12 children (e.g. he's getting jack shit from his family as far as inheritance or titles are concerned) who sees Anna as an opportunity to climb the social ladder. But during their first encounter on the street, he literally has no idea who she is, and the smile he gives himself after she dumps him in the lake by accident isn't the smile of a scheming sociopath. Later on after Elsa disappears, he genuinely tries to help out around the kingdom, and makes a genuine attempt to talk Elsa down and even stops the colonel from shooting her (which he could have easily just... not done if he really wanted her out of the picture). This really suggests that he's not outright evil, and that he wants to do what's best for everyone. But that's alright, the antagonist doesn't have to be evil; in a movie about what "true love" means, Hans as an antagonist should embody the kind of shallow, superficial attraction based on external factors (like looks, or money) rather than a true personal connection. That same twist can then be given way more power: instead of refusing to kiss Anna, he should try and fail, because 1. he's still a nice guy who wants to help people and not a psychopath, and 2. his attraction to Anna is mostly superficial, thus not being the "true" love required to break the curse.

If you want to add another layer of depth, make it so that HE actually thinks he's in love with her, and only realizes his true motivations for going after her after failing to save her life. This could work as a trigger for driving him off the deep end, with him choosing to ignore uncomfortable truths about his feelings toward Anna and placing all the blame on her sister instead, driving him to eventually try to hunt Elsa down on the frozen lake.

The reason this "twist" just fails on every level to me is because, with a good twist, you can rewatch the movie and notice all sorts of small details you missed that foreshadow it. Here, the twist is in fact contradicted by most of the circumstantial evidence I've listed above. There are, however, plenty of small hints from which you can surmise that Hans' attraction isn't motivated by "true love". Thus, were the twist changed from "Hans was EVUL ALL ALONG!!!!" (which is cartoonish and dumb) to "Hans never truly loved Anna" (which is realistic and relatable), Hans could've been a memorable, morally grey (...if even that, I don't think being attracted to someone for the "wrong" reasons necessarily makes you a bad person) antagonist like Syndrome. Instead, he'll be remembered as yet another shitty twist villain alongside the professor from Big Hero Six and the chick from Incredibles 2.

 

[MysticMisty]

with a good twist, you can rewatch the movie and notice all sorts of small details you missed that foreshadow it.

Have you tried Wreck-It Ralph? There's lots of little things that meet that criteria.

Spoiler

On rewatches I've noticed that there's a Turbo graffiti inside the station platform leading to Sugar Rush. Aside from King Candy not fitting the theme with the rest of the racers, when Vanellope tosses Ralph's medal into the racing cup the game announces her full name as Vanellope von Schweetz, von being used only for nobility and royals to reveal her true role in the game. Also, Ralph never visited Sugar Rush before and didn't know King Candy at all, but King Candy sure knew who Ralph was. And also immediately jumped to the conclusion that Ralph had Gone Turbo instead of just visiting. Plus during the Turbo Time flashback you can tell that Turbo sounds exactly like King Candy.

 

[OmnipotentStupidity]

Have you tried Wreck-It Ralph? There's lots of little things that meet that criteria.

Spoiler

On rewatches I've noticed that there's a Turbo graffiti inside the station platform leading to Sugar Rush. Aside from King Candy not fitting the theme with the rest of the racers, when Vanellope tosses Ralph's medal into the racing cup the game announces her full name as Vanellope von Schweetz, von being used only for nobility and royals to reveal her true role in the game. Also, Ralph never visited Sugar Rush before and didn't know King Candy at all, but King Candy sure knew who Ralph was. And also immediately jumped to the conclusion that Ralph had Gone Turbo instead of just visiting. Plus during the Turbo Time flashback you can tell that Turbo sounds exactly like King Candy.

Spoiler: Wreck-It-Ralph (cont.)

There's also the most blatant hint at around the midpoint where Turbo enters the lower parts of the castle, passes the arcade's bylaws, and somehow gained access to the game's code to get Ralph's medal back. Now when you first see that, one would probably wonder how he'd have had access to all of that but you could easily brush that off as, "Oh right he's the KING of Sugar Rush, he would have complete control over everything going on in HIS game", despite no other lead game characters showing they know about that. So now, on a rewatch you not only understand how he was able to change the game but why he had access to that as King Candy in the first place.

 

[Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny)]

Life's Too Short is great https://youtube.com/watch?v=nGcA9gZoWJA

It's too short cause ur old

 

[ZMOT]

Instead, he'll be remembered as yet another shitty twist villain alongside the professor from Big Hero Six and the chick from Incredibles 2.

to be fair the big hero six "twist" was just shitty because probably even a six year old already figured it out at that point. it wasn't written outright shit, but the whole "tragic villain" thing could've been written a lot better, especially with the whole "he could've saved her if he didn't focus on revenge" message and shit.

as for frozen, for me even with better writing for hans the execution would probably be still be "frozen: the music: the movie". don't get me wrong, disney movies always had music numbers, but in frozen it just feels like a constant barrage (I think there are 5 songs in the first 30 minutes) where everything in between feels like filler, and then they suddenly noticed they have another hour left and hardly any more songs and suddenly go OMG WE NEED PLOT - which is probably one of the reasons for hans' inconsistent writing.
plus everybody was jerking it over frozen for some reason (I refuse to believe tumblr flicking it to their lesbian incest fanfiction has that much reach) when tangled was the better movie to begin with, and MUH STRONG WOMEN ELSA had even worse writing than hans imo.

TLDR: frozen's writing sucks.

 

[One Man Bland]

I've always thought Hans was completely wasted by making it so that he was always evil from the very start, when this POV is contradicted by a lot of his actions throughout the movie. I think he would've been a lot more interesting of a character if he were instead portrayed as opportunistic but genuinely caring.

Like, his backstory is that he's the youngest of 12 children (e.g. he's getting jack shit from his family as far as inheritance or titles are concerned) who sees Anna as an opportunity to climb the social ladder. But during their first encounter on the street, he literally has no idea who she is, and the smile he gives himself after she dumps him in the lake by accident isn't the smile of a scheming sociopath. Later on after Elsa disappears, he genuinely tries to help out around the kingdom, and makes a genuine attempt to talk Elsa down and even stops the colonel from shooting her (which he could have easily just... not done if he really wanted her out of the picture). This really suggests that he's not outright evil, and that he wants to do what's best for everyone. But that's alright, the antagonist doesn't have to be evil; in a movie about what "true love" means, Hans as an antagonist should embody the kind of shallow, superficial attraction based on external factors (like looks, or money) rather than a true personal connection. That same twist can then be given way more power: instead of refusing to kiss Anna, he should try and fail, because 1. he's still a nice guy who wants to help people and not a psychopath, and 2. his attraction to Anna is mostly superficial, thus not being the "true" love required to break the curse.

If you want to add another layer of depth, make it so that HE actually thinks he's in love with her, and only realizes his true motivations for going after her after failing to save her life. This could work as a trigger for driving him off the deep end, with him choosing to ignore uncomfortable truths about his feelings toward Anna and placing all the blame on her sister instead, driving him to eventually try to hunt Elsa down on the frozen lake.

The reason this "twist" just fails on every level to me is because, with a good twist, you can rewatch the movie and notice all sorts of small details you missed that foreshadow it. Here, the twist is in fact contradicted by most of the circumstantial evidence I've listed above. There are, however, plenty of small hints from which you can surmise that Hans' attraction isn't motivated by "true love". Thus, were the twist changed from "Hans was EVUL ALL ALONG!!!!" (which is cartoonish and dumb) to "Hans never truly loved Anna" (which is realistic and relatable), Hans could've been a memorable, morally grey (...if even that, I don't think being attracted to someone for the "wrong" reasons necessarily makes you a bad person) antagonist like Syndrome. Instead, he'll be remembered as yet another shitty twist villain alongside the professor from Big Hero Six and the chick from Incredibles 2.

The real kick in the teeth is that the early drafts of Frozen were almost exactly this: complete with a time skip where Anna and Hans are married for a year after Elsa takes off, and part of the reason Anna finally decides to look for Elsa is to avoid dealing with the fact that her relationship is failing now that the honeymoon phase has worn off. If they really wanted to deconstruct the whole love at first sight Disney romance, I feel like that version would’ve been the much more relevant and relatable message rather than Hans just being secretly EVUL.

I think that’s what I find the most frustrating about Frozen. It’s the movie that really kicked off the pattern excessive focus group testing and micro-managing modern Disney films are plagued with, and Frozen making a fuckload of money has allowed them to justify those tactics ever since.

 

[Kari Kamiya]

TLDR: frozen's writing sucks.

And according to the behind-the-scenes of Frozen II, that pattern continued into the sequel due to the amount of rewrites that had to be done (because no one knew what to do with it), and the set-in-stone deadline they had to keep.

Schaffrillas talked about it and summarized the six episodes.

 

[Vyse Inglebard]

The real kick in the teeth is that the early drafts of Frozen were almost exactly this: complete with a time skip where Anna and Hans are married for a year after Elsa takes off, and part of the reason Anna finally decides to look for Elsa is to avoid dealing with the fact that her relationship is failing now that the honeymoon phase has worn off. If they really wanted to deconstruct the whole love at first sight Disney romance, I feel like that version would’ve been the much more relevant and relatable message rather than Hans just being secretly EVUL.

Y'know, it's those types of stories that sadden me the most....when a story that turns out to be lacking in the end was originally much more interesting and thought-provoking. Inside Out, just to bring up an example, originally had Riley herself meet her emotions inside Head-quarters. Like, you could even keep the central theme of IO's story - let's say, instead of Sadness being the "outcast" of the emotions, every other emotion actually understands why she's needed and accept her as such. That's why, in my hypothetical draft of the story, when she causes Riley to break down in front of the class at her first day of school, they understand that she needed to let that out, and go about their day, processing the move as they see fit. But then, Riley, somehow, someway (say, after her parents explain how the turbulent emotions she's going through is completely normal - "I wish my sadness were real. I'd give it a piece of my mind"), ends up in her head.

After they show her around, they introduce themselves. Riley seems to be pretty OK with all of this - until Sadness introduces herself. "Wait - YOU'RE the reason why I miss my old town so much?!" The thing is, the emotions understand Sadness' importance in processing things like moving away from your childhood home, but Riley herself doesn't (because she's a pre-adolescent). Think about how much more impactful it would've been if, instead of Joy wanting to get rid of Sadness, it was Riley herself. And let's say she actually succeeds in doing so - by shoving Sadness into the tube while no one else is looking, for example. When she goes to school the next day, and isn't able to respond with sadness to appropriate situations (R: "Nice necklace!" Kid: "Thanks. My grandpa actually gave it to me before he died...." R: "HAHAHAHAHAHA") she realizes, oh shit, being without sadness sucks. So begins the mission to rescue Sadness from the Subconscious (the home of Riley's greatest fears, further symbolizing how her greatest fear is owning up to her feelings). When they finally get there, Sadness is (understandably) reluctant to come back:

S: Why should I go back? You clearly don't want me there!

R: I know. I didn't want you around before, but I realized how empty a life without you can be. It's...*sniff* good to let out a little cry every once in a while. I'm...*sob* sorry! I'm so sorry!

Sadness then does something unexpected: she embraces Riley, as they both stand there, sobbing. Riley, having found a new appreciation for her sadness, goes on to make new friends at her school and patches things up with her family. The end.

What did we get instead? The original Toy Story, but it's inside somebody's head. What baffles me even more is that people loved Inside Out. Dude, it's literally TS1 reheated and trimmed a bit!

(Sorry for the autistic fanfic rewrite. It just pisses me off that, of all the things this story could've been, they chose the laziest possible route.)

 

[OmnipotentStupidity]

Y'know, it's those types of stories that sadden me the most....when a story that turns out to be lacking in the end was originally much more interesting and thought-provoking. Inside Out, just to bring up an example, originally had Riley herself meet her emotions inside Head-quarters. Like, you could even keep the central theme of IO's story - let's say, instead of Sadness being the "outcast" of the emotions, every other emotion actually understands why she's needed and accept her as such. That's why, in my hypothetical draft of the story, when she causes Riley to break down in front of the class at her first day of school, they understand that she needed to let that out, and go about their day, processing the move as they see fit. But then, Riley, somehow, someway (say, after her parents explain how the turbulent emotions she's going through is completely normal - "I wish my sadness were real. I'd give it a piece of my mind"), ends up in her head.

After they show her around, they introduce themselves. Riley seems to be pretty OK with all of this - until Sadness introduces herself. "Wait - YOU'RE the reason why I miss my old town so much?!" The thing is, the emotions understand Sadness' importance in processing things like moving away from your childhood home, but Riley herself doesn't (because she's a pre-adolescent). Think about how much more impactful it would've been if, instead of Joy wanting to get rid of Sadness, it was Riley herself. And let's say she actually succeeds in doing so - by shoving Sadness into the tube while no one else is looking, for example. When she goes to school the next day, and isn't able to respond with sadness to appropriate situations (R: "Nice necklace!" Kid: "Thanks. My grandpa actually gave it to me before he died...." R: "HAHAHAHAHAHA") she realizes, oh shit, being without sadness sucks. So begins the mission to rescue Sadness from the Subconscious (the home of Riley's greatest fears, further symbolizing how her greatest fear is owning up to her feelings). When they finally get there, Sadness is (understandably) reluctant to come back:

S: Why should I go back? You clearly don't want me there!

R: I know. I didn't want you around before, but I realized how empty a life without you can be. It's...*sniff* good to let out a little cry every once in a while. I'm...*sob* sorry! I'm so sorry!

Sadness then does something unexpected: she embraces Riley, as they both stand there, sobbing. Riley, having found a new appreciation for her sadness, goes on to make new friends at her school and patches things up with her family. The end.

What did we get instead? The original Toy Story, but it's inside somebody's head. What baffles me even more is that people loved Inside Out. Dude, it's literally TS1 reheated and trimmed a bit!

(Sorry for the autistic fanfic rewrite. It just pisses me off that, of all the things this story could've been, they chose the laziest possible route.)

Nonono, that's not the biggest kick in the teeth in terms of early drafts (especially with Pixar movies) that would've made for a much better movie. That goes to Cars 3's cut ending.

I would've much preferred this symbolic ending that actually ties back into, and parallels the themes of the first movie, over what we actually got. Although Inside Out's is definitely a close second. And I say that as someone who actually liked the version of Inside Out we got.

 

[Wakko Warner]

Nonono, that's not the biggest kick in the teeth in terms of early drafts (especially with Pixar movies) that would've made for a much better movie. That goes to Cars 3's cut ending.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZY9yDFgnWLEI would've much preferred this symbolic ending that actually ties back into, and parallels the themes of the first movie, over what we actually got. Although Inside Out's is definitely a close second. And I say that as someone who actually liked the version of Inside Out we got.

That would have made the movie better in my opinion. I found Cars 3 boring.

Life's Too Short is great https://youtube.com/watch?v=nGcA9gZoWJA

Here's another great cut Frozen song!

 

[Kari Kamiya]

Y'know, it's those types of stories that sadden me the most....when a story that turns out to be lacking in the end was originally much more interesting and thought-provoking. Inside Out, just to bring up an example, originally had Riley herself meet her emotions inside Head-quarters. Like, you could even keep the central theme of IO's story - let's say, instead of Sadness being the "outcast" of the emotions, every other emotion actually understands why she's needed and accept her as such. That's why, in my hypothetical draft of the story, when she causes Riley to break down in front of the class at her first day of school, they understand that she needed to let that out, and go about their day, processing the move as they see fit. But then, Riley, somehow, someway (say, after her parents explain how the turbulent emotions she's going through is completely normal - "I wish my sadness were real. I'd give it a piece of my mind"), ends up in her head.

After they show her around, they introduce themselves. Riley seems to be pretty OK with all of this - until Sadness introduces herself. "Wait - YOU'RE the reason why I miss my old town so much?!" The thing is, the emotions understand Sadness' importance in processing things like moving away from your childhood home, but Riley herself doesn't (because she's a pre-adolescent). Think about how much more impactful it would've been if, instead of Joy wanting to get rid of Sadness, it was Riley herself. And let's say she actually succeeds in doing so - by shoving Sadness into the tube while no one else is looking, for example. When she goes to school the next day, and isn't able to respond with sadness to appropriate situations (R: "Nice necklace!" Kid: "Thanks. My grandpa actually gave it to me before he died...." R: "HAHAHAHAHAHA") she realizes, oh shit, being without sadness sucks. So begins the mission to rescue Sadness from the Subconscious (the home of Riley's greatest fears, further symbolizing how her greatest fear is owning up to her feelings). When they finally get there, Sadness is (understandably) reluctant to come back:

S: Why should I go back? You clearly don't want me there!

R: I know. I didn't want you around before, but I realized how empty a life without you can be. It's...*sniff* good to let out a little cry every once in a while. I'm...*sob* sorry! I'm so sorry!

Sadness then does something unexpected: she embraces Riley, as they both stand there, sobbing. Riley, having found a new appreciation for her sadness, goes on to make new friends at her school and patches things up with her family. The end.

What did we get instead? The original Toy Story, but it's inside somebody's head. What baffles me even more is that people loved Inside Out. Dude, it's literally TS1 reheated and trimmed a bit!

(Sorry for the autistic fanfic rewrite. It just pisses me off that, of all the things this story could've been, they chose the laziest possible route.)

God, Pixar (Disney, most likely) is just allergic to mature story-telling, aren't they?

 

[Muttnik]

Big Hero Six was the most mediocre animated Disney film of the their entire animated collection. Change my mind.

 

[Vyse Inglebard]

Nonono, that's not the biggest kick in the teeth in terms of early drafts (especially with Pixar movies) that would've made for a much better movie. That goes to Cars 3's cut ending.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZY9yDFgnWLEI would've much preferred this symbolic ending that actually ties back into, and parallels the themes of the first movie, over what we actually got. Although Inside Out's is definitely a close second. And I say that as someone who actually liked the version of Inside Out we got.

My jaw fell to the floor while I was watching that. They seriously cut THAT?! I have a feeling about why it was cut, though. That talk about "brands" and "numbers" clearly being branded as a bad thing.....

Disney: Hey, you can't criticize us in your movie like that!

And that's why it was cut.

 

[Xerxes IX]

God, Pixar (Disney, most likely) is just allergic to mature story-telling, aren't they?

I once joked about the idea that Inside Out should have ended with Riley being diagnosed with depression (because lol, how dark and edgy) but honestly I would take a mature story about depression that's still understandable for kids over what we got.

 

[GenociderSyo]

That would have made the movie better in my opinion. I found Cars 3 boring.

Here's another great cut Frozen song!
https://youtube.com/watch?v=66MQPWZ-n0g

The original Frozen 2 ending I think would have been better as well. No happy ending Arenedelle destroyed and Elsa still thought dead because she actually did drown and Nokk took her someplace else. Much more plausible reason for Anna to remain Queen and them to be seperated.

Think only thing that remains it the concept art of Nokk finding her drowned.

Always seemed stupid to me to have a first movie thats all that its bad Elsa was isolated and yet they end the 2nd movie with her being isolated again.

 

[Mr Snek]

God, Pixar (Disney, most likely) is just allergic to mature story-telling, aren't they?

If I had to sum up everything wrong with modern western animation I'd just write this. Also the ham fisted "every story must have a romance plotline" we get. There's a reason Wreck it Ralph is my favourite Disney film from the 2010s, because the romance plotline there was treated as more of a comic relief than anything else.

 

[eternal dog mongler]

God, Pixar (Disney, most likely) is just allergic to mature story-telling, aren't they?

Well not anymore.

Hunchback of Notre Dame was seriously one of the best and darkest movies they ever made, but nobody liked it. I remember seeing articles in the local newspaper about how it was unsuitable for children.

 

[EmpireOfTheClouds]

It'll get overshadowed by controversy in the Twitter and journo spheres the same way Homeward with its "the first openly gay character in a Pixar movie...but she's a cop" did

What's even stupider about that was that not only was the "girlfriend" line the only indication of her being gay, but it wasn't even in the script. the script originally said "boyfriend" or "Husband" and Lena Waithe asked if she could say girlfriend instead.

Still though it says a lot that the "first gay Pixar character" was in the form of an editable line for Russia or China. Also I swear they have had like five first gay characters at this point.

This also just goes to show you too the full extent of their fake "wokeness". They're not being woke because they care about us, they're being woke because it makes them money.

 

[Kari Kamiya]

There's a reason Wreck it Ralph is my favourite Disney film from the 2010s, because the romance plotline there was treated as more of a comic relief than anything else.

I found Felix and Calhoun's romance subplot to be pretty interesting and surprisingly adorable. It's nice they played it up and made it be a B-plot than the main focus as in most other Disney films, although it sadly opened up the floodgates in fans writing fics about Ralph finding himself a girl since I guess no one is allowed to be alone in anything Disney. But cutting down on Calhoun and Felix' role in the sequel was what hurt the most for me because there was so much they could've done with the side-plot of them taking care of the Sugar Rush racers. And they had plans for it, too, but they didn't have the runtime needed for it.

 

[Xerxes IX]

What's even stupider about that was that not only was the "girlfriend" line the only indication of her being gay, but it wasn't even in the script. the script originally said "boyfriend" or "Husband" and Lena Waithe asked if she could say girlfriend instead.

Still though it says a lot that the "first gay Pixar character" was in the form of an editable line for Russia or China. Also I swear they have had like five first gay characters at this point.

This also just goes to show you too the full extent of their fake "wokeness". They're not being woke because they care about us, they're being woke because it makes them money.

Lesbian VA wants to mention a female partner instead of a male one for a one off line, gets reported as FIRST OPENLY LGBT PIXAR CHARACTER like that means much. Especially when Disney is known for throwaway pandering to maximize $$$ at this point.