Disney General - The saddest fandom on Earth

[Pokemonquistador2]

Wouldn't be the first time they pissed on Walt Disney's core beliefs and wishes.

Spoiler: Autistic ramblings and speculation about Walt Disney

Not to be "that guy" but part of why Disney was a futurist was because he was believed to be a supporter of the eugenics movement of the early 20th Century.

I honestly think that Disney's stances on eugenics may have been where a lot of the urban myths of "Disney was secretly a Nazi/Anti-Semite/White Supremacist" originally came from.

Personally, I think Walt Disney was NOT a Nazi or an Anti-Semite despite the old urban legends, although I would not be surprised if he held views that would be considered racist by modern non-SJW standards.

A lot of people forget that eugenics was a popular thing to support among the American middle class of Disney's generation and it wasn't until WWII that it became seen as a bad thing, since we saw what eugenics taken to its most extreme ultimately led to under the Nazis.


It really does say something that despite all the rumors of antisemitism surrounding him, that a devout Jewish animator and writer who worked for Disney and hated Walt's guts insisted that Walt was not an Anti-Semite and had no ill will towards the Jews.

If anything, given Walt's early 20th Century WASP background, I think he'd be more of a Philo-Semite in the vein of J.R.R. Tolkien or given Disney's Protestant Yankee upbringing, the early British Israelite authors of the Victorian and Edwardian Era.

Basically they believed the success of the British Empire and the United States is because the Anglo-Saxons were descended from one of the Lost Tribes of Israel and that the Jews were a blessed and resilient people with good genetics, and by extension so were the Anglo peoples like the English, Americans, Canadians, and Aussies since the Jews were descended from the Tribe of Judah and they believed that the British and their colonial offshoots were descended from the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh

Seriously, it was a very weird movement of the late 19th and early 20th Century and ironically it was one of the biggest influences on the explicitly racist movements of Christian Identity and the Black Hebrew Israelites (the latter just swapped the Anglos for Blacks and Native American tribes)

I think the main reason Disney got labelled as a Nazi was because he hated Commies. Entertainment Unions were thick with Commies in the early 20th Century and the Animator's Strike at Disney's company made him go ballistic and attack their union whenever he could. Since most entertainers today swing Left, it's popular for them to portray Disney as a right wing loon, just as a "fuck you" to the guy.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

Wouldn't be the first time they pissed on Walt Disney's core beliefs and wishes.

Spoiler: Autistic ramblings and speculation about Walt Disney

Not to be "that guy" but part of why Disney was a futurist was because he was believed to be a supporter of the eugenics movement of the early 20th Century.

I honestly think that Disney's stances on eugenics may have been where a lot of the urban myths of "Disney was secretly a Nazi/Anti-Semite/White Supremacist" originally came from.

Personally, I think Walt Disney was NOT a Nazi or an Anti-Semite despite the old urban legends, although I would not be surprised if he held views that would be considered racist by modern non-SJW standards.

A lot of people forget that eugenics was a popular thing to support among the American middle class of Disney's generation and it wasn't until WWII that it became seen as a bad thing, since we saw what eugenics taken to its most extreme ultimately led to under the Nazis.


It really does say something that despite all the rumors of antisemitism surrounding him, that a devout Jewish animator and writer who worked for Disney and hated Walt's guts insisted that Walt was not an Anti-Semite and had no ill will towards the Jews.

If anything, given Walt's early 20th Century WASP background, I think he'd be more of a Philo-Semite in the vein of J.R.R. Tolkien or given Disney's Protestant Yankee upbringing, the early British Israelite authors of the Victorian and Edwardian Era.

Basically they believed the success of the British Empire and the United States is because the Anglo-Saxons were descended from one of the Lost Tribes of Israel and that the Jews were a blessed and resilient people with good genetics, and by extension so were the Anglo peoples like the English, Americans, Canadians, and Aussies since the Jews were descended from the Tribe of Judah and they believed that the British and their colonial offshoots were descended from the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh

Seriously, it was a very weird movement of the late 19th and early 20th Century and ironically it was one of the biggest influences on the explicitly racist movements of Christian Identity and the Black Hebrew Israelites (the latter just swapped the Anglos for Blacks and Native American tribes)

IIRC, Walt was always something of an outcast (and target) in Hollywood as the only Gentile studio owner.

Also, for what it's worth, modern Western European-descended populations are pretty much the product of a titanic, continent-spanning, centuries-long eugenics project carried out by the Church. As the Catholic Encyclopedia recounts:

The Church was prompted by various reasons first to recognize the prohibitive legislation of the Roman State and then to extend the impediment of consanguinity beyond the limits of the civil legislation. The welfare of the social order, according to St. Augustine (City of God XV.16) and St. Thomas (Suppl. Q. liii, a. 3), demanded the widest possible extension of friendship and love among all humankind, to which desirable aim the intermarriage of close blood-relations was opposed; this was especially true in the first half of the Middle Ages, when the best interests of society required the unification of the numerous tribes and peoples which had settled on the soil of the Roman Empire. By overthrowing the barriers between inimical families and races, ruinous internecine warfare was diminished and greater peace and harmony secured among the newly-converted Christians.

Somewhat ironically, while this ban on cousin marriages was intended to help spread peace throughout Christendom, it arguably also had the unanticipated and ironic side-effect of making Europeans vastly more effective soldiers

 

[StarkRavingMad]

I honestly believe that Walt Disney himself would hate what's happening with the company right now. Sure, Walt was always a gung-ho capitalist and a business man through and through ... However, the man was also a futurist. A futurist would never be in favor of nostalgia-baiting with the shitty remakes and whatnot, nor would he have made a product that pushed agendas that would isolate large demographics of consumers. He was very optimistic to the point of stubborness, really ... He totally wouldn't be vibing with some of the very negative messages of the recent movies the company has been a part of.

Something I read about Walt Disney that I find to be insanely endearing: In the later years of his life, after opening Disneyland, critics slammed the company hard amid an ever-growing cynical world (keep in mind this was amid the cultural reset of the 1960's). A lot of the movies outside of Mary Poppins got sneered at, and he was heavily criticized for how "corny" Disneyland was. A colleague of Walt's told a story about his reaction to reading some scathing review in the paper. His reaction was to simply say, "But ... I like that corny stuff ..." Compare THAT earnest sentiment to the cynical, ultra-meta bullshit we see from the Walt Disney corporation today.

Walt Disney is no Nazi. He was very anti-commie though ... Which makes him good people, in my book.

Anyway, I have enjoyed the Disney vacations I've been on in my adulthood. I'm not ashamed at all that I've gone as an adult; the vacations have been a ton of fun, and it's been wholesome fun for the most part. Any problems I've had on these vacations have been some of the really rude park attendees, really. The employees themselves have always been professional and amazing. The Parks and the Cruiseline are basically the last thing about Disney that I still feel positively about.

That said, you couldn't pay me to go on a Disney vacation right now. No freakin' way. With all of the shit that's gone down in 2020, I imagine that going now is a miserable experience. Half of the shit is shut down, lines are super long with social distancing, it's really not cost-efficient considering the limited things you can actually do there right now, etc.

I have some married friends that were planning to go to Disney World on Labor Day weekend. They had booked everything back in January. Last I heard, they haven't completely nixed those plans. I flat-out told them that if this was their "Once in a Lifetime Vacation to Disney," then I would hold off for the next 2-3 years. For their sake, I hope they listen.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

I think the main reason Disney got labelled as a Nazi was because he hated Commies. Entertainment Unions were thick with Commies in the early 20th Century and the Animator's Strike at Disney's company made him go ballistic and attack their union whenever he could. Since most entertainers today swing Left, it's popular for them to portray Disney as a right wing loon, just as a "fuck you" to the guy.

Walt said the League of Women Voters was a Communist front, which it wasn't. And the people he named as Communists almost certainly weren't either.

People portray him as right-wing because he was. That's the plain fact of the matter.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

Walt said the League of Women Voters was a Communist front, which it wasn't.

A slip of the tongue, apparently. He had intended to point out the League of Women Shoppers, and the record of the Committee was amended to reflect this at his request.

And the people he named as Communists almost certainly weren't either.

If there's one thing that the last six or seven decades have made clear, it's that the HUAC didn't purge anywhere near enough people.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

If there's one thing that the last six or seven decades have made clear, it's that the HUAC didn't purge anywhere near enough people.

Like Lucille Ball, who was never actually a Communist but was named as such? Or John Hubley, who had long since left the Communist Party when he was named and had to give up his job at UPA?

 

[eternal dog mongler]

Wouldn't be the first time they pissed on Walt Disney's core beliefs and wishes.

He was probably a eugenicist. And racist. So was everyone else in the early 20th century. It's why I can't stand cancel culture when applied to historical figures. Resurrect him from the dead and see how woke he is in 2020.

Fucking W.E.B du Bois was a eugenecist.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

Like Lucille Ball, who was never actually a Communist but was named as such? Or John Hubley, who had long since left the Communist Party when he was named and had to give up his job at UPA?

Like whoever went on to mentor corrupt the future members of "Students for a Democratic Society," the Weather Underground, the New Communist Movement, etc, etc.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

Like whoever went on to mentor corrupt the future members of "Students for a Democratic Society," the Weather Underground, the New Communist Movement, etc, etc.

Pray tell how would they have known this would happen in the early 50s? It's not like it was Minority Report or something.

Besides, people who were outright proud Communists and advertising it weren't a problem to them, and that's why the HUAC hearings weren't about them.

 

[Dark Emporer Dood]

However, the man was also a futurist. A futurist would never be in favor of nostalgia-baiting with the shitty remakes and whatnot, nor would he have made a product that pushed agendas that would isolate large demographics of consumers.

When you look back on Disneys older films, he was always pushing more better animation, he actively worked to advance the art form, even to the point of going over-budget or near bankrupt. These days Disney has tons of valuable IPs (aka free money), F2P videogames (basically a printing press), but all of that advancement talk is replaced with agendas and creators that seem to hate their fanbase (which isnt Disney exclusive, but still). And no, I have no problem with Disney hating commies, if anything I find it a bit odd that history channels obsess over Nazis but rarely speak of the "other evil".

On a side note, I find "Donaldism" to be quite strange, its a bunch of grown up Europeans looking for social/political commentary from an old kids comic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donaldism

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

When you look back on Disneys older films, he was always pushing more better animation, he actively worked to advance the art form, even to the point of going over-budget or near bankrupt. These days Disney has tons of valuable IPs (aka free money), F2P videogames (basically a printing press), but all of that advancement talk is replaced with agendas and creators that seem to hate their fanbase (which isnt Disney exclusive, but still). And no, I have no problem with Disney hating commies, if anything I find it a bit odd that history channels obsess over Nazis but rarely speak of the "other evil".

On a side note, I find "Donaldism" to be quite strange, its a bunch of grown up Europeans looking for social/political commentary from an old kids comic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donaldism

Occasionally you get Disney fans talking about how Walt wouldn't approve of CGI... and if you know anything about him, he would have. He'd have been all over it. He'd have been all over every new kind of animation out there. I'm also certain the Nine Old Men would have liked drawing on computers with tablets as well, but that's different.

Some of the Donaldist guys go so far as to theorize that the stories do not actually take place on Earth, but on a different planet where everyone's a funny animal character. But that's what things are like where comics are considered the ninth art.

 

[Xerxes IX]

On a side note, I find "Donaldism" to be quite strange, its a bunch of grown up Europeans looking for social/political commentary from an old kids comic.

To be fair, that isn't' out of the ordinary anymore: a lot of people on Youtube do that with children's movies.

Occasionally you get Disney fans talking about how Walt wouldn't approve of CGI... and if you know anything about him, he would have. He'd have been all over it. He'd have been all over every new kind of animation out there. I'm also certain the Nine Old Men would have liked drawing on computers with tablets as well, but that's different.

He would have also loved the advancements in technology in the parks. Look at Tomorrowland's original concept revolving around different modes of transportation. Walt would have seen trackless ride technology and thought up ways you could implement that in real world transportation systems.

 

[Kari Kamiya]

In the later years of his life, after opening Disneyland, critics slammed the company hard amid an ever-growing cynical world (keep in mind this was amid the cultural reset of the 1960's). A lot of the movies outside of Mary Poppins got sneered at, and he was heavily criticized for how "corny" Disneyland was. A colleague of Walt's told a story about his reaction to reading some scathing review in the paper. His reaction was to simply say, "But ... I like that corny stuff ..."

Walt famously said: "You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway." He liked that corny stuff because he was still a kid at heart, the source of his ever-flowing optimism. I think that's why a lot of people really gravitated toward him because they could see that. He understood people better than we give him credit for, but he was always rather worried about how the general reception would go because in reality that success or failure determined the fate of his company. Snow White's very first showing had him gripping his wife's hand the whole time because he was extremely nervous about how the small group of celebrities and critics were going to react after years of them saying it was "Disney's folly", that he was literally insane. I think another part of it is that he could've lost even more money putting together the world premiere if people were more cynical about it. Like Snow White was a big fuckin' deal in 1937, everything depended on it.

He also made a particular comment in a 1963 book by Roland Gammon, "Faith is a Star", explaining why it is his movies never talked down to children:

"Both my study of Scripture and my career in entertaining children have taught me to cherish them. But I don’t believe in playing down to children, either in life or in motion pictures. I didn’t treat my own youngsters like fragile flowers, and I think no parent should.

Children are people, and they should have to reach to learn about things, to understand things, just as adults have to reach if they want to grow in mental stature. Life is composed of lights and shadows, and we would be untruthful, insincere, and saccharine if we tried to pretend there were no shadows. Most things are good, and they are the strongest things; but there are evil things too, and you are not doing a child a favor by trying to shield him from reality. The important thing is to teach a child that good can always triumph over evil, and that is what our pictures attempt to do."

So yeah, he didn't listen to the cynical critics just as long as children and open-minded adults were still thrilled with his work. That's partly why the films are famous for their "Disney magic", because Walt had great faith in his work and the people who worked under, for, and alongside him, as much of a perfectionist as he was.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

Walt famously said: "You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway." He liked that corny stuff because he was still a kid at heart, the source of his ever-flowing optimism. I think that's why a lot of people really gravitated toward him because they could see that. He understood people better than we give him credit for, but he was always rather worried about how the general reception would go because in reality that success or failure determined the fate of his company. Snow White's very first showing had him gripping his wife's hand the whole time because he was extremely nervous about how the small group of celebrities and critics were going to react after years of them saying it was "Disney's folly", that he was literally insane. I think another part of it is that he could've lost even more money putting together the world premiere if people were more cynical about it. Like Snow White was a big fuckin' deal in 1937, everything depended on it.
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He also made a particular comment in a 1963 book by Roland Gammon, "Faith is a Star", explaining why it is his movies never talked down to children:

"Both my study of Scripture and my career in entertaining children have taught me to cherish them. But I don’t believe in playing down to children, either in life or in motion pictures. I didn’t treat my own youngsters like fragile flowers, and I think no parent should.

Children are people, and they should have to reach to learn about things, to understand things, just as adults have to reach if they want to grow in mental stature. Life is composed of lights and shadows, and we would be untruthful, insincere, and saccharine if we tried to pretend there were no shadows. Most things are good, and they are the strongest things; but there are evil things too, and you are not doing a child a favor by trying to shield him from reality. The important thing is to teach a child that good can always triumph over evil, and that is what our pictures attempt to do."

So yeah, he didn't listen to the cynical critics just as long as children and open-minded adults were still thrilled with his work. That's partly why the films are famous for their "Disney magic", because Walt had great faith in his work and the people who worked under, for, and alongside him, as much of a perfectionist as he was.

He was famous for trying all these new things that no one had ever done before... well, so they say. A lot of them had already been done. But Walt popularized them, and in some ways he innovated where no one had thought before.

Animation with sound wasn't a new thing by the time Walt tried it with "Steamboat Willie," but he realized something that no one had before him - how a film could be made by a soundtrack. When films were silent, the score was whatever piece the musicians had in their library that could fit the scene. Imagine "Steamboat Willie" without its soundtrack. You can't, can you?

Same with color animation and feature animation. Of course, no one had ever tried anything like Fantasia before and that was a flop, but that doesn't mean much, does it?

 

[XYZpdq]

To be fair, that isn't' out of the ordinary anymore: a lot of people on Youtube do that with children's movies.


He would have also loved the advancements in technology in the parks. Look at Tomorrowland's original concept revolving around different modes of transportation. Walt would have seen trackless ride technology and thought up ways you could implement that in real world transportation systems.

iirc there was also a less-noble element of Walt being into the crazy high-tech shit, much of that crazy high-tech shit had crazy high-price maintenance which he could farm out to WED Enterprises or whatever other companies he put together to make sure more money from the Disney company went into the Disney family

 

[Dark Emporer Dood]

To be fair, that isn't' out of the ordinary anymore: a lot of people on Youtube do that with children's movies.

I cant speak for Donaldists, but I could see youtubers making up nonsense just for the extra ad revenue, its what Game Theory does.

e'd have been all over every new kind of animation out there. I'm also certain the Nine Old Men would have liked drawing on computers with tablets as well, but that's different.

Some of the Donaldist guys go so far as to theorize that the stories do not actually take place on Earth, but on a different planet where everyone's a funny animal character. But that's what things are like where comics are considered the ninth art.

I cant really say what Disney or the Nine old Men would've wanted, I didnt know any of them personally.

Thats actually one of the more grounded theories I've read, and if you go by Marvel logic they probably do live on Earth D1928 or something to that effect.

 

[Dom Cruise]

Occasionally you get Disney fans talking about how Walt wouldn't approve of CGI... and if you know anything about him, he would have. He'd have been all over it. He'd have been all over every new kind of animation out there. I'm also certain the Nine Old Men would have liked drawing on computers with tablets as well, but that's different.

Some of the Donaldist guys go so far as to theorize that the stories do not actually take place on Earth, but on a different planet where everyone's a funny animal character. But that's what things are like where comics are considered the ninth art.

I think they would have been fine with CG animation, but not fine with it replacing traditional animation entirely, I feel like they would have insisted on continuing to at least on occasion release a "traditionally" animated film.

 

[MysticMisty]

I think the people who insist that he wouldn't are the crazy 2D fans who bitch and moan about "muh traditional animation" when they really only mean the output of the late 80's and 90's, which was not done using any traditional method. Traditional most accurately describes the original animation methods used up through the 50's, before the xerox method was invented. Which is something the Disney studio happily and heavily used post-Sleeping Beauty. And CAPS is much different from the xerox method created at the end of the 80's. And Flash is the evolution of that, while 3D is it's own branch that first appeared back in the 60's.

I think there's a good chance he would've liked it, given that he was willing to adopt the xerox method. He absolutely would've liked CAPS for sure, just for things that weren't possible before, like the famous ballroom scene in Beauty and the Beast.

 

[Scarlett Johansson]

The Howard Ashman documentary is releasing next month.

God....the parts about him in Waking Sleeping Beauty were just heartbreaking.

If he was still alive I can only imagine what kind of amazing music he would be doing, be it Disney or Broadway.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

Pray tell how would they have known this would happen in the early 50s? It's not like it was Minority Report or something.

Besides, people who were outright proud Communists and advertising it weren't a problem to them, and that's why the HUAC hearings weren't about them.

Which simply goes back to my point that the HUAC didn't target nearly enough people.