Cyberpunk 2077 Grieving Thread

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Shooting looks really goddamn nice, there is a lot of variety on display.
The trailer actually sold me on nomads,they seem like the best choice for me now.
Also this.
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We'll know in nine days. That will be 91 days until launch and they'll have to announce it's gone gold or delay it again.
Why precisely 91 days?
 
I liked what I saw in the trailer, the combat in this game looks damn fine(oh and I noticed a potential love interest for V in the Nomad origin trailer too). Although I did catch that bit about how the weapons will be using the same 4-tier quality system for the weapons that the Witcher 3 used, I dunno if that really fits with this setting honestly. Still though, I'm looking forward to finally getting to play this game on November 19th.
 
Because that's estimated when they're "going gold", i.e. start pressing DVDs for physical release.
Alright, sure.
I don't think they would be pulling all those bells and whistles when they would have to push release a week after but sure, i guess we'll see.
Basically i don't think they'll do it, worst case - we'll get a massive day one patch for physical release (pretty standard with AAA these days actually) and that's it.
 
I liked what I saw in the trailer, the combat in this game looks damn fine(oh and I noticed a potential love interest for V in the Nomad origin trailer too). Although I did catch that bit about how the weapons will be using the same 4-tier quality system for the weapons that the Witcher 3 used, I dunno if that really fits with this setting honestly. Still though, I'm looking forward to finally getting to play this game on November 19th.

If it works, why change it.

Besides, I suspect the Legendary weapons will from what the lad Pawel said towards the end, be sort of the equivalent of witcher gear in that you have to go on a specific quest or treasure hunt to find them. You kill off the guy for his one-off Arasaka Type 99 or whatever it's called, and yes, you get one of the best guns in the game, but he might turn out to be critical to a number of other quests later on. I'm getting the impression that this is a lot "tighter" than W3 with lots of crossover between quests.

Also, bouncing bullets off walls, gyrojets with homing bullets, and sniper rifles that can go through concrete? Yes please.

Still wanna be a corpo as well.
 
I'm not sold on the gunplay, but it's a relief that it looks like they took a queue from STALKER instead of bullet spongy bullshit like Borderlands or Fallout. Having to dump a full mag into mooks really pisses me off.
 
I'm not sold on the gunplay, but it's a relief that it looks like they took a queue from STALKER instead of bullet spongy bullshit like Borderlands or Fallout. Having to dump a full mag into mooks really pisses me off.
Why? Its an RPG and those usually don't like to shower you with cannon fodder. I understand why people get mad at bullet sponges in DOOM Eternal but i don't get it here.
For your damage numbers to matter you need enemies who can withstand some damage. I might get some shit for this but i think Borderlands did a pretty good job with making a dynamic game with resistant enemies, so its not like that's impossible.
Or F.E.A.R. as another example, this game would be ruined if replicas died in 1-2 shots.
Besides, I suspect the Legendary weapons will from what the lad Pawel said towards the end, be sort of the equivalent of witcher gear in that you have to go on a specific quest or treasure hunt to find them. You kill off the guy for his one-off Arasaka Type 99 or whatever it's called, and yes, you get one of the best guns in the game, but he might turn out to be critical to a number of other quests later on. I'm getting the impression that this is a lot "tighter" than W3 with lots of crossover between quests.
Youre somewhat right, a dev spoke on this here https://www.vg247.com/2020/08/10/cyberpunk-2077-legendary-weapons-guns/
VG247: In the Night City Wire interview, they talked a little bit about the legendary weapons that are attached to specific quests. I got the impression that, for instance, depending on how you tackle a mission, you might get a different legendary at the end, compared to, say, if you go in all guns blazing versus stealth. Can you talk a little bit about how that works?

Kapala:
We need to remember that it’s not like you finish a quest and you get a reward. We don’t want to have that artificial type of game loop in our game, necessarily. It’s more of a situation where you helped a certain NPC, like, let’s say you helped Meredith Stout, that we had in our demo. If you help her, and then you continue your relationship with her, you can get a certain legendary weapon from her, because she rewards you as a character. It’s not necessarily that the legendary weapon falls out of the sky, so to speak.

But that’s a part of your choices. Since we’re making an RPG, you will not know that, when you’re making those choices. It’s not like we’re informing the player, ‘Oh, are you certain that you want to help this character? Because that character has a special weapon for you.’ It’s a part of our RPG system that your actions have consequences, and some of the consequences are that, basically, you will not get rewarded by certain NPCs that you meet in the game. And it’s not the core of why you should help those NPCs, so the decision shouldn’t be made depending on which weapon you want to have. The decision should be, ‘I want to help that NPC because I like that NPC,’ or, ‘He speaks to my ideas in the game.’ And then you get rewarded by the NPC in a certain way.

And those legendary weapons also are very different, and they will actually give you a certain feeling connected to the NPC that you got it from. So, what I’m trying to say is, basically, they’re handcrafted for the specific quest. It’s not like you have a completely disconnected weapon that you can see the NPC never using. No. Some of the NPCs will actually take out a gun from their own holster, the gun that you saw them use five minutes ago. This gun has a specific visual to it that will not be repeated anywhere else in the game, and they will give you this gun. And that feels rewarding, because they actually give you something from their own person.
 
Night City is in NorCal just south of Monterey. Pretty easily explains how we get high tech megacorps and running street battles in the same city, don't you think?
Mike Pondsmith does his research. I never thought of that connection, but the concept of "free states" that separate from the United States is looking more and more likely these days. I remember people making fun of the game for how much tech it got wrong, like people getting robotic chainsaw arms, but it was right in so many other ways. The only difference are the mega corps are called "Google" and "FaceBook".

Although I did catch that bit about how the weapons will be using the same 4-tier quality system for the weapons that the Witcher 3 used, I dunno if that really fits with this setting honestly.
I don't know what the Witcher 3 weapon tier system is (I never played it. Please don't crucify me.), but Fallout NV had weapons in tiers, they just weren't called that. Sniper Rifle > Hunting Rifle, Service Rifle > Varmint Rifle, etc.

Here's the lifepaths trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV8BTZ6_PWQ and here's the tools of destruction trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4ON7H7RnBE
I'm hyped, boys and girls. I've liked all that I've seen in the trailers so far.
Love that life path trailer. I've been playing NV again and something I've been thinking about is the opening is the part of a RPG you play the most, but it has the least verity or choice.

I'm leaning towards Nomad, but all those life paths look great.

Edit:
Why? Its an RPG and those usually don't like to shower you with cannon fodder. I understand why people get mad at bullet sponges in DOOM Eternal but i don't get it here.
Because ultimately, various "RPG" mechanics don't work outside of a turn based tabletop setting. Games from The Division to Borderlands have a problem with balancing their game because you have to account for gear. The same gun will either do nothing or instant kill people based on magical numbers you chose during level up. It makes no sense.

A great example of this is Dead Island, where zombies go from weak to fire, to immune from fire because of how the damage scaling works.

Another problem is that Fallout 3 and New Vegas had guns that felt detached from the player. They weren't responsive, and were generally awkward to use. Fallout 4 did shooting much better.

One thing I learned from playing Dungeons and Dragons is that at a certain point you have to ask if you want to play Dungeons and Dragons. People talk and talk and talk about character building and role playing, and roll their eyes at the idea of going into a dungeon to kill goblins, but that is what the game is about. You're adventurers going on quests to kill monsters and get cool loot. Trying to make the game about sitting in the tavern talking about your wife and kids gets boring fast.

It might sound less sophisticated and intellectual, but I think most people want the dungeon crawl at the end of the day. The role playing is just garnish, and like garnish, it's not something that can sustain you on it's own.

Earlier in the thread, people talked about SJWs demanding CDPR bend the knee and make the game progressive. They mock the idea that people would want to go into the slums and blast some gangsters with a shotgun, or raid a high-tech office building and chop up the security guards with chainsaw arms mantis blades. This is ultimately what all the story and setting are in service of. So getting that right is important.

Edit 2: Ninja'd again by @Super Hans
 
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Why? Its an RPG and those usually don't like to shower you with cannon fodder. I understand why people get mad at bullet sponges in DOOM Eternal but i don't get it here.
For your damage numbers to matter you need enemies who can withstand some damage. I might get some shit for this but i think Borderlands did a pretty good job with making a dynamic game with resistant enemies, so its not like that's impossible.
Or F.E.A.R. as another example, this game would be ruined if replicas died in 1-2 shots.

Dice rolls and all that stuff is a necessary abstraction for tabletop RPGs and their derivatives like Diablo and KotOR because the player is not able to directly control the action. I can't time a sword slash or parry other than choosing which turn I do those things, so the game has to figure out stuff like weak hits and glancing blows for me.

In a game like this, though, I can aim down the sights in real time, put the crosshair of my Super Accurate Scope 9000 right over somebody's eyebrow, and pull the trigger when the guy pops out for a half second. If I miss because 'This is an RPG, of course there's a miss percentage' I was cheated out of an outcome that the game let me supposedly ensure through skill.
 
Why? Its an RPG and those usually don't like to shower you with cannon fodder. I understand why people get mad at bullet sponges in DOOM Eternal but i don't get it here.
For your damage numbers to matter you need enemies who can withstand some damage. I might get some shit for this but i think Borderlands did a pretty good job with making a dynamic game with resistant enemies, so its not like that's impossible.
Or F.E.A.R. as another example, this game would be ruined if replicas died in 1-2 shots.
How obnoxious the bullet sponge thing is depends heavily on the enemy, if some random low-tier dipshit takes more then one or two shots to the head, or two to four to the torso before they drop, that's both annoying and immersion breaking. The replica commandos in FEAR are heavily armed, well-trained elites, their equivalents in this setting would be corporate soldiers, veteran gang members, and for the police, the MAXTAC teams used to deal with cyberpsychos. Nobody expects to drop high-tier enemies in a few shots from their starting pistol or whatever.
 
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How obnoxious the bullet sponge thing is depends heavily on the enemy, if some random low-tier dipshit takes more then one or two shots to the head, or two to four to the torso before they drop, that's both annoying and immersion breaking. The replica commandos in FEAR are heavily armed, well-trained elites, their equivalents in this setting would be corporate soldiers, veteran gang members, and for the police, the MAXTAC teams used to deal with cyberpsychos. Nobody expects to drop high-tier enemies in a few shots from their starting pistol or whatever.
Allow me to flash my autism - the actual tier [at least according to CP2020] would go Army > Corporate Army > MAXTAC > Corporate Security > Edgerunners > other street trash

And yeah, I do expect to drop any unarmored human with a basic pistol in 1-2 hits. High tier enemies, however, would be corp goons in hardshells and actual goddamn cyborgs, for those you need those handcannons to have a chance of dropping them before they turn off your lights.
 
Judge Dredd, Super Hans, FunPosting101
The interview actually mentions that too:
VG247: How do you balance that, because you said about recoil, right? And when I think of shooting in an RPG, and the RPG levelling making recoil better, the first thing I think of is the first Mass Effect game, where you start out and your reticule is this big, and then as you level up, it gets smaller and smaller to represent your accuracy. But that also led to the frustration where you’d be pointed straight at someone, pulling the trigger, and bullets would be going off and missing.

Kapala:
Yes, absolutely. That was the biggest problem I feel like we needed to solve. So, basically, to merge those two systems like you noticed, if you start on the heavier side of the RPG, I would say. If your spread is too big, like if it envelops one fourth of your screen, it makes it impossible to hit anything. And that brings that frustration to the player. We really don’t want to create that feeling. However, you also need to have that sizable portion of all the variables to be tweakable, and to be progressive.

So, in general you have two types of variables on the weapon side. You have variables that are controllable by the player, or semi-controllable by the player, like, for example, the recoil. Recoil can be smaller or larger, so this would be the movement of the camera as you’re firing. Something like CS:GO has big recoil, right? But proficient players can still control it. However, spread is the size of the crosshair as you’re firing the gun, and that’s something that’s completely random. You cannot foresee where the bullet will go next, because it’s just a huge chunk of your screen. And what we learned during our development process is that we much prefer scaling recoil, so something that the player can control still, even at the beginning of the game, than scaling spread. So, spread will still be scalable, but it’s not infuriating at the beginning. And it scales a little bit less than recoil, which you can still control as the player. And that alleviated a lot of that frustration, at least for us. And I think that players will experience a similar thing, that basically, you can learn the guns.

VG247: Obviously, in an RPG, at a point, you need to have enemies that can take a lot of punishment. But how do you avoid these bullet-spongey enemies, where encounters seem to drag on, and you’re shooting someone over and over again? I’m thinking about the big fella you see in the Braindance, who’s heavily augmented…

Kapala:
Adam Smasher.

VG247: Right. He’s clearly not going to be somebody that goes down in a few hits, no matter what weapon you’re using. Even if you’re using a rocket launcher, I would assume. So, how do you balance that, to make sure it doesn’t cross from challenging to frustrating?

Kapala:
So, in the core of the game, if we’re talking about the normal NPCs that you meet on the street, they can have different rarities to them, I would say. Most of the NPCs that you will meet are normal, just goons. And if you’re continuing to level up, and if you’re on the level of the enemy, you should never experience bullet sponginess. They will feel quite fast to kill, quite fast to engage. However, they’re quite deadly as well, so you need to basically use cover, and move around a lot.

Some of the NPCs will be more armoured, or more, how do I say? Some of the NPCs would be, like at officer level, so they’re more elite enemies that deal even more damage, and they take a little bit more punishment. However, what we opted to do there is that, we basically ensure that hit reactions on our NPCs are always played. This is a big problem in most of the games that I played that have bullet sponges – that basically you don’t see any type of reaction on the NPC as you’re hitting him. It feels like you’re literally shooting a sponge, like there’s nothing there. And we never want to have that. So, we will still play hit reactions on those NPCs. You will still see that they’re getting hurt. They will stumble, they will fall from your gunfire. So, that’s still in place. And as far as boss fights are concerned, well, I think it would be best if players see it for themselves. However, I can assure you that we took the necessary steps not to have them feel like bullet sponges as well.
It sounds like they might pull it of right.
Personally i'm absolutely ok with mechanical abstractions so bullet-sponges in say F:NV never bothered me but i can understand why it would be a problem.
 
Looks pretty fucking dope, IMO. Hope they stick to November this time.

I'm thinking they will. The repetition of "NOVEMBER 19" seemed to be to try to assuage any doubts that it might be delayed again. Also, Witcher 3 was delayed twice, firstly for 5 months (October 2014 - February 2015) then again for 3 months (February 2015 - May 2015).
 
Allow me to flash my autism - the actual tier [at least according to CP2020] would go Army > Corporate Army > MAXTAC > Corporate Security > Edgerunners > other street trash

And yeah, I do expect to drop any unarmored human with a basic pistol in 1-2 hits. High tier enemies, however, would be corp goons in hardshells and actual goddamn cyborgs, for those you need those handcannons to have a chance of dropping them before they turn off your lights.
Thanks for the information, but I wasn't putting any of the guys I mentioned in my post into any specific power rankings, but rather a list of generally tougher than normal badguys.


Judge Dredd, Super Hans, FunPosting101
The interview actually mentions that too:
VG247: How do you balance that, because you said about recoil, right? And when I think of shooting in an RPG, and the RPG levelling making recoil better, the first thing I think of is the first Mass Effect game, where you start out and your reticule is this big, and then as you level up, it gets smaller and smaller to represent your accuracy. But that also led to the frustration where you’d be pointed straight at someone, pulling the trigger, and bullets would be going off and missing.

Kapala:
Yes, absolutely. That was the biggest problem I feel like we needed to solve. So, basically, to merge those two systems like you noticed, if you start on the heavier side of the RPG, I would say. If your spread is too big, like if it envelops one fourth of your screen, it makes it impossible to hit anything. And that brings that frustration to the player. We really don’t want to create that feeling. However, you also need to have that sizable portion of all the variables to be tweakable, and to be progressive.

So, in general you have two types of variables on the weapon side. You have variables that are controllable by the player, or semi-controllable by the player, like, for example, the recoil. Recoil can be smaller or larger, so this would be the movement of the camera as you’re firing. Something like CS:GO has big recoil, right? But proficient players can still control it. However, spread is the size of the crosshair as you’re firing the gun, and that’s something that’s completely random. You cannot foresee where the bullet will go next, because it’s just a huge chunk of your screen. And what we learned during our development process is that we much prefer scaling recoil, so something that the player can control still, even at the beginning of the game, than scaling spread. So, spread will still be scalable, but it’s not infuriating at the beginning. And it scales a little bit less than recoil, which you can still control as the player. And that alleviated a lot of that frustration, at least for us. And I think that players will experience a similar thing, that basically, you can learn the guns.

VG247: Obviously, in an RPG, at a point, you need to have enemies that can take a lot of punishment. But how do you avoid these bullet-spongey enemies, where encounters seem to drag on, and you’re shooting someone over and over again? I’m thinking about the big fella you see in the Braindance, who’s heavily augmented…

Kapala:
Adam Smasher.

VG247: Right. He’s clearly not going to be somebody that goes down in a few hits, no matter what weapon you’re using. Even if you’re using a rocket launcher, I would assume. So, how do you balance that, to make sure it doesn’t cross from challenging to frustrating?

Kapala:
So, in the core of the game, if we’re talking about the normal NPCs that you meet on the street, they can have different rarities to them, I would say. Most of the NPCs that you will meet are normal, just goons. And if you’re continuing to level up, and if you’re on the level of the enemy, you should never experience bullet sponginess. They will feel quite fast to kill, quite fast to engage. However, they’re quite deadly as well, so you need to basically use cover, and move around a lot.

Some of the NPCs will be more armoured, or more, how do I say? Some of the NPCs would be, like at officer level, so they’re more elite enemies that deal even more damage, and they take a little bit more punishment. However, what we opted to do there is that, we basically ensure that hit reactions on our NPCs are always played. This is a big problem in most of the games that I played that have bullet sponges – that basically you don’t see any type of reaction on the NPC as you’re hitting him. It feels like you’re literally shooting a sponge, like there’s nothing there. And we never want to have that. So, we will still play hit reactions on those NPCs. You will still see that they’re getting hurt. They will stumble, they will fall from your gunfire. So, that’s still in place. And as far as boss fights are concerned, well, I think it would be best if players see it for themselves. However, I can assure you that we took the necessary steps not to have them feel like bullet sponges as well.
It sounds like they might pull it of right.
Personally i'm absolutely ok with mechanical abstractions so bullet-sponges in say F:NV never bothered me but i can understand why it would be a problem.
I'm really glad to hear that most non-boss enemies will have damage reactions. That's one of the most frustrating things in FPSRPGs to me, when some dude just takes bullet after bullet without flinching until they suddenly die when their last bit of health runs out.
 
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