Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

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The actual battle, as Gideon only had 300 to beat the Midianites... The movie is more Indian looking than Egyptian, but who knows what they actually wore.
You know, I was going to contradict you, but the more I read on it, there's some odd similarities if you read the right accounts, and it makes me want to know more about what you know about this.

While literary gideon would have existed about 500 years before thermopylae, the deuteronomist source we have for it would have been near contemporary with the battle at thermopylae. And while we usually talk about thermopylae from Herodotus' account of the battle, Diodorus Siculus's account of the battle (which is much later written in the 1st c. BC, and likely was based on Ephorus's now-lost history) has Leonidas making his last attack against the persians in the dead of night, where he's able to cause massive damage, similar to the account of Gideon attacking at night.

The soldiers, then, in accordance with the orders given them, forming in a compact body fell by night upon the encampment of the Persians, Leonidas leading the attack;⁠ and the barbarians, because of the unexpectedness of the attack and their ignorance of the reason for it, ran together from their tents with great tumult and in disorder, and thinking that the soldiers who had set out with the Trachinian had perished and that the entire force of the Greeks was upon them, they were struck with terror. Consequently many of them were slain by the troops of Leonidas, and even more perished at the hands of their comrades, who in their ignorance took them for enemies. For the night prevented any understanding of the true state of affairs, and the confusion, extending as it did throughout the entire encampment, occasioned, we may well believe, great slaughter; since they kept killing one another, the conditions not allowing of a close scrutiny, because there was no order from a general nor any demanding of a password nor, in general, any recovery of reason. Indeed, if the king had remained at the royal pavilion, he also could easily have been slain by the Greeks and the whole war would have reached a speedy conclusion; but as it was, Xerxes had rushed out to the tumult, and the Greeks broke into the pavilion and slew almost to a man all whom they caught there. So long as it was night they wandered throughout the entire camp seeking Xerxes — a reasonable action; but when the day dawned and the entire state of affairs was made manifest, the Persians observing that the Greeks were few in number, viewed them with contempt; the Persians did not, however, join battle with them face to face, fearing their valour, but they formed on their flanks and rear, and shooting arrows and hurling javelins at them from every direction they slew them to a man. Now as for the soldiers of Leonidas who guarded the passes of Thermopylae, such was the end of life they met.

That's a really weird coincidence, and I was totally unaware of it, since Herodotus doesn't include the night attack, and that's usually the account dramatic retellings like 300 go off of.
 
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the deuteronomist source
Forget the documentary hypothesis, brother. No serious theologian uses that anymore, despite it still being found in most of our modern Bibles, up until recently. It was developed over the course of the 19th century and put in final form by Julius Wellhausen.
Basically, it teaches that Moses didn't write the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible, in canonical order: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy), instead it was written, or more precisely, put together as a sort of mix-and-match copy-paste frankentext from at least four documentary sources: J, E, D, and P.
  • The "Jawhist," Southern, primitive source, from around 900 B.C.
  • The "Elohist," Northern, less primitive source, from around 800 B.C.
  • The "Deuteronomist," ethical/preachy source, from around 600s B.C.
  • The "Priestly," decadent ritualism, from around the exilic period or later.
This entirely new hypothesis makes irrelevant the old canonical order of the Pentateuch, where the organizing principle were the dealings of God with man:
  • Creation
  • The Fall
  • The Consequences of the Fall
  • The Calling of Abraham
  • The formation of the people: giving them land, laws, promises, promising to bless the whole world in and by them.
Instead of the canonical order, the Documentary Hypothesis claims "J" comes first, then E, then D, then P. So, it uses the same material to tell an entirely different story. The Pentateuch is now read from the completely novel framework of evolution, the shiny new toy in the 19th century's intellectual tool belt.

The story told by the reordered Pentateuch of the Documentary Hypothesis is now the gradual growth and development of human religion, from the primitive anthropomorphic "J source," which Wellhausen compared to the pagan Arabs before the coming of Islam, all the way down to the decadent ritualistic "P source," which he compared to later rabbinic Judaism with its abstruse legalism and preposterous taboos. It's now the story of religious development: from the primitive apocalypticism of the earliest sources, to a more developed sapiential teaching, suitable to the needs of the later communities that wrote them.

Close your ears to their blandishments, brother, because these theories twist our religion into an entirely new thing where we no longer worship the God who thundered from atop Mount Sinai in cloud and Majesty and awe, where we no longer worship the Divine Savior who was crucified and risen for our salvation. In this new religion, we and our community, not the God we worship, are the protagonists of our religious narrative. The story is now self-centered, rather the God-centered, it's about our own growth: from primitive tribes who believed in things like "miracles," to sophisticated, self-aware, and mature believers who tell hard truths and congratulate ourselves on how nuanced and critical we are.

The great struggle for the survival of the Church this century is over the authority of Scripture. Not women's ordination, not gay marriage, contraception, or whatever, those are all secondary; the determining factor for the survival of our Church will be Scripture. This is where we stand or fall. Faithfulness isn't something you have to apologize for, lean into it.
 
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Instead of the canonical order, the Documentary Hypothesis claims "J" comes first, then E, then D, then P. So, it uses the same material to tell an entirely different story. The Pentateuch is now read from the completely novel framework of evolution, the shiny new toy in the 19th century's intellectual tool belt.

That's a fascinating way to think of the documentary hypothesis. I never put together that they're subconsciously shilling an evolutionary model from primitive to more sophisticated, but that would make sense for the whole higher-criticism modernist crowd to go for wouldn't it.
 
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That's a fascinating way to think of the documentary hypothesis. I never put together that they're subconsciously shilling an evolutionary model from primitive to more sophisticated, but that would make sense for the whole higher-criticism modernist crowd to go for wouldn't it.
The only serious English commentaries I go to besides the Church Fathers are George Leo Haydock, and as a close second Dom Bernard Orchard.
 
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People do know that the word they use in Hebrew in Leviticus 19:34 and is גֵּר (ger) and that has distinct meaning right? Sojourner is actually used accurately in this case. The spirit of the text is that you shouldn’t abuse some (nig)ger who lives among you and is a polite decent member of your society who abides by your rules. It can also imply a convert if you go by the Greek, but it can also mean they are assimilating into the culture or respectful. Typically, I believe that the phrase for a non-Jew who’s okay beyond a good Goy is ger toshav. Basically legal resident who is different than us.

They actually do have a word for rude foreigner or someone who doesn’t respect the law of the land or the Kingdom/ Land of Israel. נָכְרִי (Nokri) is used in Deuteronomy 17:15 and Proverbs 2:16

There is also זָר (Zar, I find this one funny because it sounds like Tsar) and basically from what I it means stranger in a more literal sense and kind of a stranger danger sense. You are to be wary of it.

@Catch The Rainbow can you Jewishly kike-check my knowledge of Hebrew?

I find the modern discussion about immigration to be extremely Boomer and commie spic liberation theology bullshit. Enjoy your children being Dhimmis in a few years because you needed GDP go up to get that pension you voted yourself.

Edit: there were 4 major sects of Jews during the 2nd Temple period. Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes (Dead Sea Scrolls), and Zealots. Pharisees were effectively like Catholics/ Orthodox in the view that they held sacred tradition along with the Old Testament books along with commentary and philosophy, Sadducee’s were akin to Episcopalians/ Anglicans in that they drew power from politics and believed whatever Rome told them were Sola Scriptura, Essenes were withdrawn and kind of like anyone who gets autistic when faith is used to justify politics, and the Zealots were kind of like the Trad Cath Zoomers and Orthobros who are frustrated at society and the interference of foreigners into their culture. The Zealots and their sub-group the Sicarii actually did carry out rebellion.

Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot by tradition are often considered Zealots. Supposedly a lot of Early Christians were Essenes. Sadducees died out because they had influence with the Temple. Some Jews sperg about them getting absorbed and fucking things up. Zealots from what I’ve read actually split pretty evenly when they didn’t die from Romans beating them into paste.
 
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There is also זָר (Zar, I find this one funny because it sounds like Tsar) and basically from what I it means stranger in a more literal sense and kind of a stranger danger sense. You are to be wary of it.
This is really cool, but I don't know hebrew and I really think I'm too old to acquire a non-indo-european language at this point. Do these same nuances have reflection in LXX's greek? I'll be honest that I'm a total sperg for "YAAAA LXX ONLY" or even really a preference for vulgate's latin. Like I do not trust the masoretic text to be not tampered with by jewish theological qualms given the lateness of its provenance in manuscripts.
 
This is really cool, but I don't know hebrew and I really think I'm too old to acquire a non-indo-european language at this point. Do these same nuances have reflection in LXX's greek? I'll be honest that I'm a total sperg for "YAAAA LXX ONLY" or even really a preference for vulgate's latin. Like I do not trust the masoretic text to be not tampered with by jewish theological qualms given the lateness of its provenance in manuscripts.
Kinda. You lose some of the nuance. Zar and Xenos (alien) are paired. Ger is translated as proselyte which is in English close to convert. Nokri is allophylos which means another race.

The vulgate is similar where ger is translated to advena, but nokri and zar get less nuance as alienus and peregrinus. Peregrinus were non-Roman free people, who lacked the rights of Romans. They actually had less rights than Roman Freedmen. It’s also where the name for Peregrine falcon came from and its connotation depends on the era. It can be associated with pilgrims.

Advena is actually important in the context of other shit. Cicero in a few legal documents uses and it keeps the meaning that most would associate with it, not a citizen but someone with legal protections and in good standing with authorities.
 
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The vulgate is similar where ger is translated to advena, but nokri and zar get less nuance as alienus and peregrinus. Peregrinus were non-Roman free people, who lacked the rights of Romans. They actually had less rights than Roman Freedmen. It’s also where the name for Peregrine falcon came from and its connotation depends on the era. It can be associated with pilgrims.
In latin these have the sense of an "arrival" (someone who is arriving) a foreigner (a total other or stranger) and a wanderer.
 
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Also, I am like 95% certain that Job, while a commentary on suffering and refuting the concept that everyone who suffers is suffering as a punishment, starts with metacommentary in the wager with God and the devil. Mostly because the young man who calls out Job and his boomer friends is right and his name which I forget implies redemption.

I take it like Jonah where it’s comedic. We as readers know why Job is suffering, the young man who God doesn’t rebuke is right and that’s part of the joke.
 
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1 (4).webp
 
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Also, I am like 95% certain that Job, while a commentary on suffering and refuting the concept that everyone who suffers is suffering as a punishment, starts with metacommentary in the wager with God and the devil. Mostly because the young man who calls out Job and his boomer friends is right and his name which I forget implies redemption.

I take it like Jonah where it’s comedic. We as readers know why Job is suffering, the young man who God doesn’t rebuke is right and that’s part of the joke.
The wager is not a metacommentary, but a revelation of the nature of devils and how they are so powerless before God that they can only do what they do by Gods will.
Elihu (meaning “My God is He”) was not right, he accused Job of unrighteousness and arrogance when Job is blameless and righteous. Specifically, he misquotes what Job said:
“For Job has said, ‘I am righteous,
And the Lord has taken away my judgment.’
But he spoke untruth in my judgment when he said, ‘My wound is severe, though I am without wrongdoing.’ What man is like Job, Who drinks scorn like water? For he says, ‘I have not sinned, nor committed ungodliness, Nor had anything in common with the workers of lawlessness,
So as to walk with ungodly men.’” (34:5-8)
Further, he directly contradicts what God had said before:
“Then the Lord said to the devil, ‘Have you considered my servant Job, since there is none like him on the earth: an innocent, true, blameless, and God-fearing man, and one who abstains from every evil thing? Moreover he still holds fast to his integrity, though you told me to destroy his possessions without cause.’” (2:3)
It becomes clear then that, while Elihu is different and closer to the truth than any of his friends, he is also wrong, speaking arrogantly and presumptuously. Job never sinned in this instance; He kept the faith perfectly, and was blameless, innocent, and righteous. Even in this struggle, he maintained his innocence. Just because Elihu is not mentioned among the three Job repented for does not indicate he was right. It is silent about this, and we cannot draw that conclusion as a firm sign.

I’d argue that instead of being right, he was either redeemed by Jobs continual redemption (being a man from Ausitis, as was Job), or he was so far gone that he was beyond it. His sin would be worse because it was hidden in righteousness, whereas the others were blatantly wrong. But even this is just speculation.
 
@G.G. A-Log

It’s why I say like 95% sure. I’ve read it a few times and it kind of comes across like Jonah where it feels like the oral tradition the writing comes from dips into the idea of the audience being aware of why, not that the concept that God is so powerful that devils can’t do shit is wrong.

Also part of the criticism of Job I’ve discussed is that Elihu critique of Job is not wrong, but he’s angry and passionate about it and in his anger starts accusing Job of treading into the realm of thinking that he is worthy of God answering why.

I know a lot of Jewish commentary take the view that God doesn’t address Elihu because he’s ignored because he’s angry. Not right, and God ignores him because he’s angry and doesn’t want to justify his anger.

Catholics take the view that he’s not wrong, gets a lot right and is well-intentioned but comes across to hot.
 
I just had the worst nightmare. I take medication that gives me the most intricate, life-like, HD dreams possible. Each one is like an entire movie, and I have multiple dreams per sleep cycle.

Anyway, right after my dream about exposing corrupt politicians, I went to Mass in the church where I got baptized. Except the priest was a woman, and when I looked at the paper they hand out to parishioners to follow along, I saw she was also a lesbian and instead of following the liturgical calendar, she was following the lunar phase calendar! This was not right at all.

I didn't take communion, and at the end I was gathering my stuff when I noticed they had put makeup and lipstick on Jesus on the crucifix. So I tried to wipe it off but ended up taking the whole thing off the wall to remove the sacrilege. The remaining parishioners had all lost their minds and were basically brainrotted by the service.

And then God saved me by waking me up to go to real Mass. Go to church, boys, it's Sunday. No excuses!
 
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This question has probably been asked pretty often, but what’s the most accurate, 1:1 English translation of the Bible without any tacked on or extra additions to it? I figure you guys might have a few different answers, but I’m hoping to see what you guys believe.
 
This question has probably been asked pretty often, but what’s the most accurate, 1:1 English translation of the Bible without any tacked on or extra additions to it? I figure you guys might have a few different answers, but I’m hoping to see what you guys believe.
You're probably looking for the NASB or NKJV.

There is three main philosophies for how to translate the bible that most translations fit into ranging from:

1. Word for word
2. Thought for thought
3. Paraphrase
 
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