Brianna Wu / John Flynt - Original Thread

[millais]

Flynt's Wikipedia article doesn't mention anything about the transgender history. And it looks like someone wants to keep it that way since the article is locked from editing.

 

[blackie toy]

Flynt's Wikipedia article doesn't mention anything about the transgender history. And it looks like someone wants to keep it that way since the article is locked from editing.

To be fair I'm not aware of any sources calling Wu out that Wikipedia would classify as reliable. Particularly for something like this.

Their biography policy, originally directed more at avoiding liability for defamation, has evolved into a Tumblresque policy that all but forbids referring to anyone as a member of (just about) any group unless they personally acknowledge it.

 

[MayMay]

You know, looking at Wu in better detail, I can't help but feel she's probably never even transitioned right or to be a bit of a jerk, at all beyond surgery.
Unlike some of us (*cough*) she could just pay her way through it instead of being forced to jump through metaphorical hoops and still be stuck waiting for what feels like a goddamn eternity to even be able to start (*cough*)

Given she's a massive idiot who wouldn't rule out the idea she just got the cheapest bog-standard over-the counter pills she could find (clearly R60 couldn't have been anything but cheaply made) or even just went "well I'll just get a few surgeries and hey presto time to rack in oppression points!"

Sure waiting over here to be able to do it on NHS is utter hell but at least they'll prescribe the right stuff, y'know?

Just a little example I yanked from a google image
search of a transition process:

I mean, at just 4 months there's already a big difference compared to the start.
Now compare with Wu

Who doesn't really look different besides a change in hairstyle.

Hormones really do make the difference when it comes to outward appearances, a lot of kids are pretty androgynous looking before they get close to, or hit, puberty. Probably why it takes so long for things like dysphoria to emerge too.

Then again, with that "men with the sense to chop their dicks off" comment, I have a horrible feeling Wu's just another 'trender who did it all for "lol misandree" and oppression points.

... That went on a bit longer than I expected, huh.

 

[100 Whole Bepis]

Unlike some of us (*cough*) she could just pay her way through it instead of being forced to jump through metaphorical hoops and still be stuck waiting for what feels like a goddamn eternity to even be able to start (*cough*)

This... this is a very good point and something I didn't even think of. Now that you mention it she really does look like she didn't even go through therapy or hormone treatments. The latter usually has radical effects on one's physical appearance but she doesn't look a bit different. It's very likely she just bought her way through the process.

Though to give her the benefit of the doubt, gender reassignment surgery is pretty extreme, especially without leading into it with HRT. Even someone who just wanted the oppression points might not go that far. Usually trenders stop at the hormone phase and eventually get sick of that. But it also wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened. Wu is an idiot with a lot of money, after all.

 

[HG 400]

tbh I'd be surprised if there was even a surgery. I think she just changed her haircut and called it a day.

 

[MayMay]

This... this is a very good point and something I didn't even think of. Now that you mention it she really does look like she didn't even go through therapy or hormone treatments. The latter usually has radical effects on one's physical appearance but she doesn't look a bit different. It's very likely she just bought her way through the process.

Though to give her the benefit of the doubt, gender reassignment surgery is pretty extreme, especially without leading into it with HRT. Even someone who just wanted the oppression points might not go that far. Usually trenders stop at the hormone phase and eventually get sick of that. But it also wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened. Wu is an idiot with a lot of money, after all.

Normally I'd agree but Wu is pretty much insane and really has nothing going for her other than "I'm so oppressed!" honestly, I wouldn't doubt that she'd see oppression points as a fair trade-off for anything (including the ironic dysphoria 'trenders face when they do go through with it all)

There do seem to be some signs of surgery (such as the neck scar that I'm pretty sure would have faded/healed over if taken care of at all) and the chest. So I guess "change hair, get rid of apple, fake boobs" then call it.

 

[Positron]

Allow me to mansplain: what he must do right now is to ditch that Soylent Green shit and start eating real food. I guarantee in 2 weeks' time he'll look less like something out of the pages of Goosebumps. It will also improve his mood and make him less obsessive about Gamergate.

 

[Cuck Norris]

Spoiler: Brianna will save us

 

[Sarcastic Username]

I can understand if makeup and fashion isn't someone's thing, I'm a wash and wear girl myself. Personally, if I were going on national television, I would splurge for a full make-over. Thanks to the internet your appearance will most likely be immortalized for everyone to see.

On the first televised presidential debate, Nixon famously refused to wear make-up. He looked horrible. Everyone learned the lesson.

Every politician you see on TV is wearing makeup. Every news personality you see is wearing makeup. If you go to a TV studio for an interview, they will put makeup on you, unless you steadfastly refuse.

 

[Cuck Norris]

On the first televised presidential debate, Nixon famously refused to wear make-up. He looked horrible. Everyone learned the lesson.

Every politician you see on TV is wearing makeup. Every news personality you see is wearing makeup. If you go to a TV studio for an interview, they will put makeup on you, unless you steadfastly refuse.

Didn't she post some shit on Twitter about how her hair looked and how it was because she was so stressed out from "fleeing her home" (rather, pretending to)?

 

[MayMay]

Is that loser to the far left Anita? I mean she is pretty wooden!

Really though, they'd be better known know as "guardians of my own back pocket" or "guardians of hipster welfare"

 

[Optimus Prime]

Is it just me or does Wu look like a bad imitation of Frank from Rocky Horror?

On the first televised presidential debate, Nixon famously refused to wear make-up. He looked horrible. Everyone learned the lesson.

Every politician you see on TV is wearing makeup. Every news personality you see is wearing makeup. If you go to a TV studio for an interview, they will put makeup on you, unless you steadfastly refuse.

Just to add to the power of makeup...my sister admitted to me over a dinner of Chipotle last month that the previous school semester (she's still in high school) dumped so much work on her that she spent three straight days without sleeping. She'd used makeup to hide the telltale signs of sleep deprivation on her face to fool our parents.

Now, honestly she could have avoided all that if she didn't wait until the late evening to even start doing homework in the first place since, but she fooled our parents for three days purely because she didn't have rings under her eyes...or so they thought. Certainly fooled me, that's for sure.

 

[AnOminous]

Flynt's Wikipedia article doesn't mention anything about the transgender history. And it looks like someone wants to keep it that way since the article is locked from editing.

Unless someone has experience wading around in WP:BLP issues, I wouldn't see much point in getting in a sperg war about it. However, it might be worth noting to any Wikipedians you know who are into that whole GG/anti Wikipedia editing shit. A cleverly staged skirmish over that article could easily result in lulzy topic bans on both sides. I'd as soon nail my tongue to a two by four as participate in such a thing, though.

 

[Jaimas]

You know, looking at Wu in better detail, I can't help but feel she's probably never even transitioned right or to be a bit of a jerk, at all beyond surgery.
Unlike some of us (*cough*) she could just pay her way through it instead of being forced to jump through metaphorical hoops and still be stuck waiting for what feels like a goddamn eternity to even be able to start (*cough*)

Given she's a massive idiot who wouldn't rule out the idea she just got the cheapest bog-standard over-the counter pills she could find (clearly R60 couldn't have been anything but cheaply made) or even just went "well I'll just get a few surgeries and hey presto time to rack in oppression points!"

Sure waiting over here to be able to do it on NHS is utter hell but at least they'll prescribe the right stuff, y'know?

Just a little example I yanked from a google image
search of a transition process:

I mean, at just 4 months there's already a big difference compared to the start.
Now compare with Wu

Who doesn't really look different besides a change in hairstyle.

Hormones really do make the difference when it comes to outward appearances, a lot of kids are pretty androgynous looking before they get close to, or hit, puberty. Probably why it takes so long for things like dysphoria to emerge too.

Then again, with that "men with the sense to chop their dicks off" comment, I have a horrible feeling Wu's just another 'trender who did it all for "lol misandree" and oppression points.

... That went on a bit longer than I expected, huh.

You said in so many words what I was going to be getting at: No matter how much she claims to have done so, there's serious doubts over whether or not Wu ever had HRT based on her physical stature alone. All of this paints a situation with only two outcomes: Wu either didn't have HRT at all, or Wu had HRT acquired via shifty channels that didn't fucking work (purportedly fairly common amongst the Tumblr trans*** crowd).

If the former is true, I have a theory... It's for a similar reason to why Vade didn't. She adopted Transgender as an identity. Unlike Vade, Wu had the capability to get surgery, but I don't think Wu had the ability to get through the psychological hoops for HRT, and was either unwilling or unable to bribe her way past. Surgery alone meant she could claim to be Trans without consequences, and could, at any time, reverse it, get the implants taken out, and return to a life of heteronormalcy. Mark my words, if all's said and done and the only surgeries Wu had were her Adam's apple and breasts, I would not be surprised, and here is why:

Wu is a projector. One of the biggest ones in all of Anti-GG. And as a projector, she projects what's truest about herself onto others. Hence her accusing others of transmisogyny whilst her own statements are ridiculously transphobic and reminiscent of Vade's screeds. Hence her line on abusers not even a page ago, or retweeting that post trying to attack Milo for his lack of college completion.

But now, let's look at another favorite line of hers, shall we?

“I have about as much respect for a transsexual that regrets surgery as Reverend Ted Haggard who regrets thinking he was gay and having a five year affair with a gay prostitute and drug dealer. Poor Ted. So tricked by the system and the temptation of lucious [sic], sinful and delicious gay sex. Please.”

Draw your own fucking conclusions.

If the second is true (that Wu got blackmarket-channel'd HRT drugs), then that likewise explains why she looks like this. For the uninitiated, random people without dysphoria trying to transition (such as criminals trying to change identity, most notably) is the greatest reason these drugs are heavily regulated. There's a huge blackmarket for them as a result, and governments have been cracking down on illicit producers of HRT drugs for years.

The thing is, HRT drugs aren't like other drugs. They require time, effort, and careful maintenance, both to use and to produce, and generally require doctoral supervision to manage for ideal dosage and to check for health risks. They're hard to manufacture as well. The thing is, in some states and areas, self-medication is the only way to go for this, especially in the midwestern USA.

So Wu could duck behind that excuse. There's just one problem:
Wu transitioned in the USA and comes from a fantastically wealthy background.

The USA has a lot of medical centers and support groups which are quite well-versed in handling transition. Most of these are on the coastal states, but three in particular - California, New York, and New Jersey - have huge support networks for transpeople. It would have been easily possible for Wu to operate in network (she fucking has to have health insurance between her and her wealthy hubby) and get everything she fucking needed for transition therapy, no fuss, no muss, and all she'd need to do is get past the psych screenings and show she had Gender Dysphoria. She's rich enough that she should have been able to let insurance cover her surgeries and medication, so long as she did everything legit.

....Which of course is where everything comes full stop.

We now know comprehensively that Wu clearly didn't do this through medical channels for her transitioning.

She wouldn't have had to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for her surgeries if she had gotten a Dysphoria diagnosis and handled everything through her insurance company. Yes, many companies won't recognize Dysphoria, but Wu's fucking rich enough that she can essentially company-shop until she finds one that does, and I know from personal experience with several friends that there's several that will. This implies that Wu knew she couldn't get past the psych screenings and instead decided to pay out of pocket for the entire thing.

This would also explain her current appearance. If she didn't go through the proper channels, she'd never have gotten the HRT drugs from them. And since she's perfectly happy to self-victimize in her current state.... Well, I'll leave all theorycrafting on her reasoning to you, my Kiwis.

 

[AnOminous]

Then again, with that "men with the sense to chop their dicks off" comment, I have a horrible feeling Wu's just another 'trender who did it all for "lol misandree" and oppression points.

The actual Wu quote:

It turns out, girls really admire a boy with enough common sense to chop off their penis.

I find it difficult to imagine a legitimate transsexual saying something like this. People who hate transsexuals routinely characterize the surgery as "chopping off the penis." That's not remotely what happens, though. Generally, all the tissue is preserved and essentially peeled like a banana and then turned inside out. Also, note Wu's use of "boy" in that sentence. Most TG people actually consider themselves members of the gender they're seeking surgery to become. What does Wu think of themselves?

Wu's own words: "a boy with enough common sense to chop off their penis."

"A boy."

 

[MayMay]

The actual Wu quote:



I find it difficult to imagine a legitimate transsexual saying something like this. People who hate transsexuals routinely characterize the surgery as "chopping off the penis." That's not remotely what happens, though. Generally, all the tissue is preserved and essentially peeled like a banana and then turned inside out. Also, note Wu's use of "boy" in that sentence. Most TG people actually consider themselves members of the gender they're seeking surgery to become. What does Wu think of themselves?

Wu's own words: "a boy with enough common sense to chop off their penis."

"A boy."

It's more like a dick flip than a dick chop.

But then again, some people actually do their research. That or common sense I mean literally lopping it off would probably cause near death by bleeding or at least permanent damage to that area. There's about a hundred of so baby boys that die each year from just having their foreskin removed.

And definitely agree on the use of "boy". I'll just say it, being genuinely misgendered (as in, by well-meaning people not just people looking to be arseholes) stings. I can't begrudge people for not knowing I mean, total strangers and all but damn it still feels like a kick in the heart. Hell, I'm known by friends to be utterly brutal to myself and even then I wouldn't refer to myself like that...

 

[blackie toy]

Unless someone has experience wading around in WP:BLP issues, I wouldn't see much point in getting in a sperg war about it. However, it might be worth noting to any Wikipedians you know who are into that whole GG/anti Wikipedia editing shit. A cleverly staged skirmish over that article could easily result in lulzy topic bans on both sides. I'd as soon nail my tongue to a two by four as participate in such a thing, though.

BLP is the crux of the issue. The BLP policy imposes a much higher sourcing standard when it comes to articles covered by it. In my experience, to make a claim that major, the best possible source would be Wu herself saying it publicly. Just about anything else would result in an edit war. Even sources as credible as the NY Times, Washington Post, Der Speigel, The Guardian, etc., if they didn't contain an explicit confirmation of it by Wu, would result in an edit war, potentially an arbitration case. I can't say for sure where my own opinion would fall in the latter case—I think it would depend on the source itself, but regardless, it would be muddy enough that "respect for privacy" prong of BLP would kick in and result in suppressing the information.

As I said above, BLP was originally grounded in wanting a bright-line policy by which the project could avoid liability for defamation. As a related matter, it also worked to help develop the project's credibility in the early days, to avoid controversies that, while they wouldn't result in a defamation suit, would make the project look like a bunch of idiots. While there have been some pretty decent scandals in the past, I would argue that a lot have also been avoided.

The problem now is that BLP has been used as a bludgeon to force respect for and deference to article subjects on certain matters. Pronouns is a huge one in the wake of the edit wars over the Manning arbitration case. With people who are very much in the public eye, such as heads of state and major media figures, this hasn't been a big problem—the sourcing has almost always been good enough to at least comment on the crazier stuff. Where it runs into problems are less-noted people—like Wu.

Edited to add:
Another serious issue with contemporary use of BLP has become a partial return to the old principles of avoiding defamation: because BLP applies project-wide—that is, even on discussion pages, which aren't presented as articles—you can use BLP as a means of suppressing even on-site discussion of things like whether Wu was born a man unless you present your discussion points with reliable sources.

I'm of the opinion that this is the biggest current misuse of BLP. I admit that I haven't looked at the relevant defamation law, but the arguments are rarely framed in terms of defamation. Like the Manning case, the arguments are all framed in terms of respect for human dignity (whatever that means).

I should say that I'm not fundamentally opposed to the outcome in the Manning case. Nor am I fundamentally opposed to keeping any information about Wu's past off Wikipedia: I haven't seen any sources that I'd call reliable for Wikipedia purposes, even under a more conservative reading of BLP.

 

[Sarcastic Username]

Unless someone has experience wading around in WP:BLP issues, I wouldn't see much point in getting in a sperg war about it.

What if one just adds the "transsexual and transgender women" category at the bottom of the page?

 

[blackie toy]

What if one just adds the "transsexual and transgender women" category at the bottom of the page?

Categories can be a real hairy subject. Where you're dealing with low-visibility articles, there are often inappropriate categories that go unnoticed for a long time. I remember seeing a white guy in an African-American category and having to do a lot of legwork to determine whether it was appropriately added.

The ideal for categorization is that the material that supports it is in the article body and sourced. Sometimes, however, it'll be okay to just have a source that supports the category used in the article. In this case, I can promise you the category would be reverted quickly. You might not get blocked immediately for it, but you would hopefully be asked to come to the discussion page and provide a source.

One of the often-cited behavioral principles on Wikipedia is that while you should feel free to be bold and make changes to articles, you should not be surprised if those changes are reverted. Should your changes be reverted, the behavioral standard is to try to discuss it, rather than revert again. It's not prohibited to do so, but it's frowned upon. I'm not going to say that everyone adheres to it, especially not the people involved in GG/anti-GG on Wikipedia, but it's a matter to be aware of.

 

[AnOminous]

I should say that I'm not fundamentally opposed to the outcome in the Manning case. Nor am I fundamentally opposed to keeping any information about Wu's past off Wikipedia: I haven't seen any sources that I'd call reliable for Wikipedia purposes, even under a more conservative reading of BLP.

I think in the case of disputes like this, the article should just be deleted for lack of notability. It isn't like Wu is all that important.