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>tfw no astropath gf said:
I have yet to see a breadtuber like Vaush give a definition on what Fascism or Whiteness is, all I've ever seen is uhhh it's a uhh like system of oppression uhh that is also capitalistic and hates non-whites uhhh and is also sexist uhh.
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Who needs a definition of fascism when you just call everything you hate fascist. It’s like Antifa being for good things and against bad things
 
Lobster Cult High Priest said:
Who needs a definition of fascism when you just call everything you hate fascist. It’s like Antifa being for good things and against bad things
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I think put simply in the philosophy of antifa, fascism is an obfuscation of class antagonisms that replaces class with the threat of outside and internal enemies against the organic whole of society as a means to rally workers and wealthier upper middle class alike against perceived enemies i.e immigrants, cultural and bourgeoise elites. Whereas communists see it as the goal to achieve the unity of the dispossessed and working classes against the bourgeoisie and link up with other revolutionary struggles to overthrow capitalism. There is a lot more to it than that I’m sure with the many versions of fascism that have existed or still exist at present. Maybe fascism can exist without outside enemies but I’ve always thought it needed some kind of emergency state or crisis period to justify its existence. Some people call Vladimir Putin a fascist for his obsession with restoring Russia to its former imperial glory, this might be a part of it but being autocratic and glorifying the past is not enough to make you a fascist I think in terms of Mussolini or Franco or even Lee Kuan Yew’s fascism
 
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Maxxicus Callahan said:
I think put simply in the philosophy of antifa, fascism is an obfuscation of class antagonisms that replaces class with the threat of outside and internal enemies against the organic whole of society as a means to rally workers and wealthier upper middle class alike against perceived enemies i.e immigrants, cultural and bourgeoise elites. Whereas communists see it as the goal to achieve the unity of the dispossessed and working classes against the bourgeoisie and link up with other revolutionary struggles to overthrow capitalism. There is a lot more to it than that I’m sure with the many versions of fascism that have existed or still exist at present. Maybe fascism can exist without outside enemies but I’ve always thought it needed some kind of emergency state or crisis period to justify its existence. Some people call Vladimir Putin a fascist for his obsession with restoring Russia to its former imperial glory, this might be a part of it but being autocratic and glorifying the past is not enough to make you a fascist I think in terms of Mussolini or Franco or even Lee Kuan Yew’s fascism
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Anfia and communist revolutions use outside enemies as well which muddies the waters or goes to show how similar they are.
 
>tfw no astropath gf said:
I have yet to see a breadtuber like Vaush give a definition on what Fascism or Whiteness is, all I've ever seen is uhhh it's a uhh like system of oppression uhh that is also capitalistic and hates non-whites uhhh and is also sexist uhh.
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Fascism when you get down to it is Totalitarianism perfected with strong elements of nationalism. Fascism is total control of the state, which the state is people, the people of the nation and the people should give into the state because the state are the people and to go against the state, is to go against the people. The socialists tend to forget that alot of fascists, especially Mussolini and Mosley were originally socialists that saw the failures of internationalism and to attempt to mend the divide between labor and capitol and wanted both to move with "The State" towards a brighter future. In fact, when socialists attempt to say that Fascism is capitalism at its basest form, I laugh for they fail ot realize how interventionist that Ill Duchey was and that Hitler's "Privatization" really wasn't as it had much of that was given to those who would jump to the tune of the Nazi Party.

Though certainly what commies, socialists, and fascists have in common is a contempt for individual freedom, contempt for property rights, a need for an omnipresent enemy to fight, a belief that heaven can be achieved on Earth and their regimes being unhumane to outright murderous.
 
Maxxicus Callahan said:
I think put simply in the philosophy of antifa, fascism is an obfuscation of class antagonisms that replaces class with the threat of outside and internal enemies against the organic whole of society as a means to rally workers and wealthier upper middle class alike against perceived enemies i.e immigrants, cultural and bourgeoise elites. Whereas communists see it as the goal to achieve the unity of the dispossessed and working classes against the bourgeoisie and link up with other revolutionary struggles to overthrow capitalism. There is a lot more to it than that I’m sure with the many versions of fascism that have existed or still exist at present. Maybe fascism can exist without outside enemies but I’ve always thought it needed some kind of emergency state or crisis period to justify its existence. Some people call Vladimir Putin a fascist for his obsession with restoring Russia to its former imperial glory, this might be a part of it but being autocratic and glorifying the past is not enough to make you a fascist I think in terms of Mussolini or Franco or even Lee Kuan Yew’s fascism
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What I learned reading about fascism is it's core components are nationalism, idealism, and any varient of corporatism/sydicalism as it's economy. Communists have a hard time describing it cause dialectical materialism works outside of philosophical idealism. Strangely enough fascists have a pretty good grasp of understanding communism.
 
Anti Fun Aktion said:
What I learned reading about fascism is it's core components are nationalism, idealism, and any varient of corporatism/sydicalism as it's economy. Communists have a hard time describing it cause dialectical materialism works outside of philosophical idealism. Strangely enough fascists have a pretty good grasp of understanding communism.
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The latter shouldn't be a huge shock. As was mentioned earlier, Fascism was invented by former Marxists (largely Socialists) who understood that Internationalism was destined to fail, and also grasped that a completely command economy without private property makes no sense in reality and dehumanizes people. A lot of them wrote extensively on Marxist ideologies (Mussolini especially) and if someone gets into Fascist writings they're guaranteed to read at least one critique of some kind of Marxist thought by a former Marxist.

I might be delving into conspiracy territory saying this, but I think that part of the reason most Marxists and derivatives can't identify Fascism properly is that Marxists actively discourage and restrict access to Fascist literature because it's so amenable to fellow Marxists dissatisfied with Marxism. It's damaging to their monopoly over anti-capitalist rhetoric when Hitler's famous Speech at the Siemens Factory is perfectly in-line with the dialogue of speeches given at, say, Occupy Wallstreet.

The last thing a radical leader wants is fellow radicals deciding to embrace another ideology.
 
Shaka Brah said:
The latter shouldn't be a huge shock. As was mentioned earlier, Fascism was invented by former Marxists (largely Socialists) who understood that Internationalism was destined to fail, and also grasped that a completely command economy without private property makes no sense in reality and dehumanizes people. A lot of them wrote extensively on Marxist ideologies (Mussolini especially) and if someone gets into Fascist writings they're guaranteed to read at least one critique of some kind of Marxist thought by a former Marxist.

I might be delving into conspiracy territory saying this, but I think that part of the reason most Marxists and derivatives can't identify Fascism properly is that Marxists actively discourage and restrict access to Fascist literature because it's so amenable to fellow Marxists dissatisfied with Marxism. It's damaging to their monopoly over anti-capitalist rhetoric when Hitler's famous Speech at the Siemens Factory is perfectly in-line with the dialogue of speeches given at, say, Occupy Wallstreet.

The last thing a radical leader wants is fellow radicals deciding to embrace another ideology.
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Well in many ways the Second World War was a war to determine which collectivist ideology would win with the war with Fascism against Communism with the Fascists and National Socialists losing because of chosing to fight the world, ideology especially with Hitler removing potential Eastern European allies like the Ukrainians, and lack of resources to carry a prolonged war.

Though the true horrors of the war second only to the sheer death it brought was that it gave Communist and Socialists a platform ot seem like the good guys and allowing the communists to get away with their atrocities.
 
Kyria the Great said:
were originally socialists that saw the failures of internationalism
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Shaka Brah said:
The latter shouldn't be a huge shock. As was mentioned earlier, Fascism was invented by former Marxists (largely Socialists) who understood that Internationalism was destined to fail, and also grasped that a completely command economy without private property makes no sense in reality and dehumanizes people.
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Internationalism cannot be questioned.

Shaka Brah said:
I might be delving into conspiracy territory saying this, but I think that part of the reason most Marxists and derivatives can't identify Fascism properly is that Marxists actively discourage and restrict access to Fascist literature because it's so amenable to fellow Marxists dissatisfied with Marxism.
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Its amenable and fascism is a bigger evil than "capitalism", I dare say. An openminded marxist will quickly discover the similarities and the strawman may start blowing away. They've put themselves in a position where they have to ban literature to keep the facade.
Shaka Brah said:
It's damaging to their monopoly over anti-capitalist rhetoric when Hitler's famous Speech at the Siemens Factory is perfectly in-line with the dialogue of speeches given at, say, Occupy Wallstreet.
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People have posted and spoken Hitler quotes to leftist media and gotten positive responses due to this. I personally have done this in person and they were trained to immediately assume it was from one of their movement's iconic enemies. They wouldn't elaborate as to why they couldn't disagree with the quote itself, just the person who said it.

Kyria the Great said:
Well in many ways the Second World War was a war to determine which collectivist ideology would win with the war
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I'd say international banking, "progressivism" , and globalism v. variants of nationalism and communism. The western establishment supported communism instead of being ambivalent to it which is quite telling of their values.
 
I know Orwell is overplayed but this is interesting he says the word has almost lost all meaning. It’s kind of the perfect accompaniment to listening to this breadtube panel go at it over fascism. Great YouTube channel.
Don’t agree with the entirety of this take but good to see people talk on this subject in detail
 
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TIK is really good. The amount of work he puts into his videos is really impressive. He cites everything he talks about, these breadtube channels couldn't hold a candle to his research. His rhetoic is kinda sub-par tho, and the more I think about it, the more I realize the only strength any of these breadtube people have is that they're really good at talking circles around people with bullshit. But you can't really expect a historian to have better rhetorical skills than a bullshit artist.
 
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GedsForth said:
But you can't really expect a historian to have better rhetorical skills than a bullshit artist.
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They should, at least in theory. Historians are trained to have those skills if they attend a rigorous graduate school (or even a good undergraduate college). The problem is most academics who are worth a shit are fairly autistic and hyper-specialized or just have trouble with rhetoric and debate due to temperament. You have to un-learn a lot of introversion to be good at debating, and even if they're good at it, it's not worth their time to debate morons like this. They're better off in academia having those debates with their peers.
 
Why do they always have such annoyingly smug cartoon avatars?

Like the dude with the rectangle head and Xander both have them and they're awful.
 
Bookmark Cuck said:
Why do they always have such annoyingly smug cartoon avatars?

Like the dude with the rectangle head and Xander both have them and they're awful.
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They're hiding ignorance and/or pain behind smug. Soytube is IRL Soyjak meme.
 

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Maxxicus Callahan said:
I know Orwell is overplayed but this is interesting he says the word has almost lost all meaning. It’s kind of the perfect accompaniment to listening to this breadtube panel go at it over fascism. Great YouTube channel.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=05FFux4uPd8https://youtube.com/watch?v=qdY_IMZH2KoDon’t agree with the entirety of this take but good to see people talk on this subject in detail
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TIK’s video on the difference between Fascism and Nazism is great and I’d recommend it to anyone who wants to learn more about the topic. Although is boomeresque definition of Socialism (Government doing stuff) is kind of cringe.
 
>tfw no astropath gf said:
I have yet to see a breadtuber like Vaush give a definition on what Fascism or Whiteness is, all I've ever seen is uhhh it's a uhh like system of oppression uhh that is also capitalistic and hates non-whites uhhh and is also sexist uhh.
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Well these people don't even know what their own ideas are either. They've never read Marx, Bakunin or Kropotkin. Despite Breadtube being named after Kropotkin's work "Conquest of Bread". None of them have read it or any leftist book for that matter. Even breadtubes who claim to be "book experts" like Radical Reviewer, most of the time they just look up the sparknotes/wikipedia summary anyways and cite that.

This is no different than during the skeptic community days, everyone acted super smart by citing early liberal enlightenment writers like Sargon without actually reading them. Like Thomas Paine and such. Same shit. Ironically the only politically literate people on the extremist fringe I've met in my life were Fascists and Nazis. Not only were they decently read up on their own ideas. They knew more about Anarchism and the variants of Marxism than those who follow those ideas. Though this is massively anecdotal so take that with a grain of salt.
 
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