eh, most I've read about it was just office politics and business decisions, nothing about it's state. besides, l4d2 has it's fair share of issues and depending who you ask worse gameplay.
turtlerock gets a lot of shit, especially after evolve, but a lot of that is rewriting history by people who haven't even played it or were to smoothbrained for it (that doesn't mean it was a game for intellectuals, but player competence and intelligence has dropped off a fucking cliff). it was a good game at it's core where they simply fumbled the execution, in part due to factors outside their control (like getting picked up by 2k). that's no excuse for b4b, but when you go after an established "classic" you better stick the landing.
besides, they could've just re-tooled evovle into a l4d clone that isn't re-hashing the outdated zombie trope (not many scifi l4d clones out there) and asymmetric pvp was always a smaller demographic then pve, but that's just me.
Evolve had what should have been an incredibly fun concept, but the core gameplay loop was always either the hunters wasting 30 fucking minutes chasing the monster only to get dunked by a max level monster that was prepared for them, or they instantly ganked the monster with little effort and frustrated the monster who didn't even have a chance of doing anything. Gameplay loop needed fixing.
But it certainly didn't help that 2K were likely the ones mandating the ludicrous monetary garbage.
Evolve had what should have been an incredibly fun concept, but the core gameplay loop was always either the hunters wasting 30 fucking minutes chasing the monster only to get dunked by a max level monster that was prepared for them, or they instantly ganked the monster with little effort and frustrated the monster who didn't even have a chance of doing anything. Gameplay loop needed fixing.
Evolve had what should have been an incredibly fun concept, but the core gameplay loop was always either the hunters wasting 30 fucking minutes chasing the monster only to get dunked by a max level monster that was prepared for them, or they instantly ganked the monster with little effort and frustrated the monster who didn't even have a chance of doing anything. Gameplay loop needed fixing.
But it certainly didn't help that 2K were likely the ones mandating the ludicrous monetary garbage.
the main issue was that turtlerock tried to balance it across the board, both for extreme casuals and top players. commendable but inevitable foolish, any high level monster wiped a noob hunter group easily, while it was pretty much the opposite on high level.
to make it worse they incorporated the worst of modern gamedesign practices like matchmaking only and tacking a progression on it - which would've been ok in itself, tf2 has one too, but it's not tied to steamrolling scrubs, just playing the game.
in the end that meant unless you had a premade group who knew what it was doing, most games you got fucked by the monster. with the random nature of matchmaking you could never work on your team cohesion, optimize or get used to the same monster player (I'm not even sure if progression even worked in custom games, which was among battleborn's most retarded decisions). can't remember it every match was one round or it did reset, multiple rounds are at least a step in the right direction.
maybe I'm too naive, but imagine old b.net style lobbies or "custom" servers - fact is there were plenty of people who wanted to play the game, but in the end it meant getting fucked constantly until you find enough people to friend with and who all are available at the same time to play a few matches. the problem wasn't really the game itself, but how to get it going while leading to a miserable "game experience", and that's something a lot of companies don't understand or undervalue these days, in part fueled by "it needs to sell 100 million copies the first week". hardly any game did that, and the biggest moneymakers these days are based on mods which means their origin (and growth) couldn't be more grassroots. imagine if dota and team fortress had matchmaking only...
all that convenience in exchange for a dead game, gg.
to get back on topic I can see b4b making the exact same mistakes again, so I can pretty much expect where it's going...
the main issue was that turtlerock tried to balance it across the board, both for extreme casuals and top players. commendable but inevitable foolish, any high level monster wiped a noob hunter group easily, while it was pretty much the opposite on high level.
to make it worse they incorporated the worst of modern gamedesign practices like matchmaking only and tacking a progression on it - which would've been ok in itself, tf2 has one too, but it's not tied to steamrolling scrubs, just playing the game.
in the end that meant unless you had a premade group who knew what it was doing, most games you got fucked by the monster. with the random nature of matchmaking you could never work on your team cohesion, optimize or get used to the same monster player (I'm not even sure if progression even worked in custom games, which was among battleborn's most retarded decisions). can't remember it every match was one round or it did reset, multiple rounds are at least a step in the right direction.
maybe I'm too naive, but imagine old b.net style lobbies or "custom" servers - fact is there were plenty of people who wanted to play the game, but in the end it meant getting fucked constantly until you find enough people to friend with and who all are available at the same time to play a few matches. the problem wasn't really the game itself, but how to get it going while leading to a miserable "game experience", and that's something a lot of companies don't understand or undervalue these days, in part fueled by "it needs to sell 100 million copies the first week". hardly any game did that, and the biggest moneymakers these days are based on mods which means their origin (and growth) couldn't be more grassroots. imagine if dota and team fortress had matchmaking only...
all that convenience in exchange for a dead game, gg.
to get back on topic I can see b4b making the exact same mistakes again, so I can pretty much expect where it's going...
All I've generally heard about this game from the beta is that it's the shittier version of Left 4 Dead. Turtlerock always has a solid idea for their games between Evolve and this but can NEVER stick the landing.
Like I'm not even angry at them, they're trying to bring us back to the same feeling that the original L4D had, but it just never seems to go right with them. Evolve we knew was from 2K being the money greeding shits they are, but this is just really sad.
The main cast is really weird, I'm either fine with them or atleast think their designs aren't that bad but they just had to add the obligatory tomboy lesbian character.
It's weird because there is already a tomboy character but they wanted to add another one for some reason, their inclusion probably has something to do with the dev them.
Anyways I presume this is going to be a problem for the extra new characters they are planning to add later down the road.
On that note, no idea why there has to be so many characters, Left 4 Dead only had 4 unique (for the most part) playable characters for both games but here there are 8 player characters with their own special abilities/attributes for some reason and there are more planned on the way.
I know something like this was done in thread before but fuck it.
Left 4 Dead 1
Left 4 Dead 2
Back 4 Blood (beta)
Anyways so much of this game is flawed at the core, it's not just the weird business model stuff going on but that is a big part of what's wrong here.
The game looks interesting that's for sure but there are so many problems that are probably not going to be fixed that I can't be "hyped" for it.
Even the special infected that Left 4 Dead is known for isn't all that great, they really are copycats of preexisting special infected from Left 4 Dead or just not all that interesting.
The only one that I find truly interesting is the "Stitcher" because it's based on an unused special infected from the original Left 4 Dead called the "Screamer" but that's really it.
I can forgive the lackluster gameplay a bit which can be fixed and its some pretty decent ideas even if some contradict what L4D was built off of but I honestly feel the game is bland from a design setpoint
I dont feel immersed by these characters cause they all fit in the niche zombie rolls and while some people like that it just doesn't sit well with me cause they don't feel like they have real personalities like the other casts. That's really more of a problem cause of the amount of cleaners you have to account for so you got to cut some corners.
I dont particularly feel on edge with the special riddens not only cause I can have setups that let me invalidate what they do, but the game feels it doesn't need to play up how dangerous they are like they did in l4d. No music cues or distinct sounds, but then again they aren't that dangerous so I'm asking for too much when they weren't designed that way here.
Its just a combination of the game taking itself too seriously and playing up character builds.
Like wheres the guy who forgot his pack of coke? Give me more of that dumb charm
The main cast is really weird, I'm either fine with them or atleast think their designs aren't that bad but they just had to add the obligatory tomboy lesbian character. View attachment 2434068
It's weird because there is already a tomboy character but they wanted to add another one for some reason, their inclusion probably has something to do with the dev them.
Anyways I presume this is going to be a problem for the extra new characters they are planning to add later down the road.
On that note, no idea why there has to be so many characters, Left 4 Dead only had 4 unique (for the most part) playable characters for both games but here there are 8 player characters with their own special abilities/attributes for some reason and there are more planned on the way.
I know something like this was done in thread before but fuck it.
Anyways so much of this game is flawed at the core, it's not just the weird business model stuff going on but that is a big part of what's wrong here.
The game looks interesting that's for sure but there are so many problems that are probably not going to be fixed that I can't be "hyped" for it.
Even the special infected that Left 4 Dead is known for isn't all that great, they really are copycats of preexisting special infected from Left 4 Dead or just not all that interesting.
The only one that I find truly interesting is the "Stitcher" because it's based on an unused special infected from the original Left 4 Dead called the "Screamer" but that's really it. View attachment 2434114
The B4B survivor character designs are so awful. The only one I kinda like is the doctor looking lady as she's the only one that seems to stick out without bothering my eyes and tells me exactly what her role's supposed to be.
Everyone else kinda confuses me. Why do we have three characters with baseball caps? Why is the guy wearing bright orange the one with the sniper rifle? Why do we have two characters wearing bright blue shirts?
The L4D games had distinct character designs that you can easily recognize in the midst of a fight or dark area. Plus, none of them look like they were made by a committee.
The B4B survivor character designs are so awful. The only one I kinda like is the doctor looking lady as she's the only one that seems to stick out without bothering my eyes and tells me exactly what her role's supposed to be.
Everyone else kinda confuses me. Why do we have three characters with baseball caps? Why is the guy wearing bright orange the one with the sniper rifle? Why do we have two characters wearing bright blue shirts?
The L4D games had distinct character designs that you can easily recognize in the midst of a fight or dark area. Plus, none of them look like they were made by a committee.
L4D definitely has the best character designs, one look tells you so much about the kind of character they’re supposed to be (grizzled army vet, hardened gangbanger, salaryman and young woman) without seeming in-your-face about it.
L4D2 relies more on the dialogue to establish the characters which isn’t inherently a bad thing, but it does make their designs look a bit more generic. I thought Nick was a doctor at first because of his white coat but the other three kind of just look like normal civilians.
I detest the idea of heavy stat and cosmetic customisation being attached to characters with specific abilities and passives. Let me play the cute glasses waifu as a sledgehammer wielding tank.
World War Z completely detached ability customisation from character customisation, even if it didn't make narrative sense.
It's weird because there is already a tomboy character but they wanted to add another one for some reason, their inclusion probably has something to do with the dev them.
Anyways I presume this is going to be a problem for the extra new characters they are planning to add later down the road.
On that note, no idea why there has to be so many characters, Left 4 Dead only had 4 unique (for the most part) playable characters for both games but here there are 8 player characters with their own special abilities/attributes for some reason and there are more planned on the way.
Remember, they did the same kind of thing with Evolve - the hunters had four classes, but each class had five or six characters with their own way of performing the class' functions. It's not a bad idea in and of itself, but it since there's no class division in B4B it doesn't seem to work anywhere near as well as it did in Evolve, or in a PvE focused setup like Payday or Vermintide. In Evolve, the hunters always had one of each class, so everyone knew that each role was being covered; in Vermintide, you have five characters with three/four classes each, so if you drop into a team you can get a quick idea of what everyone is bringing to the table; the closest analogue is Payday, but it still had skill trees of some sort rather than each of the, what, fifteen or so characters being locked to a specific play style, to help with coordination between players. I can't quite put my finger on why the system seems off - it's like they're trying to split the difference between having a class-based character selection or putting all the players on the same level - but it doesn't look like it will work as well as Turtle Rock thinks.
I don't mind the cast being larger, since it does at least imply that your band of Committee-Designed Plucky Heroes isn't the only one going out and actually doing anything, but it's quite possible to instead infer that through the environment and campaigns like things were in L4D, if the design team was so inclined to make it that way. The problem is that, naturally, by making a larger cast you have less time to devote to fleshing them out - I'm pretty sure most of the call-and-response chatter among the team is going to be just shy of Mad Libs as a consequence, and you won't be able to get the kind of budding camaraderie that builds between them across the campaign like either of the L4D games, not to mention the disconnect between the attempted tone of the setting and the characters' behavior. I get the sinking feeling that like most games in Current Year, it's going to be fuck near all "tell" and very little "show".
It's nice to finally see a zombie IP where the army isn't Satan incarnate, though.
The main cast is really weird, I'm either fine with them or atleast think their designs aren't that bad but they just had to add the obligatory tomboy lesbian character. View attachment 2434068
It's weird because there is already a tomboy character but they wanted to add another one for some reason, their inclusion probably has something to do with the dev them.
Anyways I presume this is going to be a problem for the extra new characters they are planning to add later down the road.
On that note, no idea why there has to be so many characters, Left 4 Dead only had 4 unique (for the most part) playable characters for both games but here there are 8 player characters with their own special abilities/attributes for some reason and there are more planned on the way.
I know something like this was done in thread before but fuck it.
Anyways so much of this game is flawed at the core, it's not just the weird business model stuff going on but that is a big part of what's wrong here.
The game looks interesting that's for sure but there are so many problems that are probably not going to be fixed that I can't be "hyped" for it.
Even the special infected that Left 4 Dead is known for isn't all that great, they really are copycats of preexisting special infected from Left 4 Dead or just not all that interesting.
The only one that I find truly interesting is the "Stitcher" because it's based on an unused special infected from the original Left 4 Dead called the "Screamer" but that's really it. View attachment 2434114
The only visually appealing one here is the Doctor one, solely because you can tell what her character is and what she does just by looking at her, just like the original L4D/L4D2 cast. The other ones with the exception of the Purple haired one just look like "generic apocalypses character #24". The purple haired one looks like she walked into the wrong set, and was just thrown into the movie if you get what I mean.
Them bringing back the screamer screams pure laziness to me. also inb4 they remake Dam It for B4B
Yeah, I see where you're coming from, The Screamer was a very flawed concept to its core and even when it was scrapped it's mechanic was ported over to the Boomer and Witch.
Every single unused special infected has a good reason to be removed. They were either too derivative to other special infected (like Claws and The Leaker) or had something to do with animals which the only one that was interesting was the rat man but either way would still be absolutely awful to fight against.
On that topic do you think that they also reused "The Meatwall" for the Ogre? We know literally almost nothing about it other than it was a huge big fat zombie but I could see it being a kind of boss thing like how the Ogre is.
Now the only real good use for the unused special infected is putting them in some kind of SFM as a novelty, I know there's one out there and it's pretty interesting but trying to put them back in is a difficult task to perform.
Anyways to segway into what I want to talk next, I learned this from a guy that goes by "Wow Such Gaming" on YT and his special infected profiles series where he went in-depth on each of the special infected from Left 4 Dead 1/2.
Just from that alone you can tell that he's a big L4D fan and because of that, he obviously checked out B4B.
He made a short review of its beta in December of 2020, you can really tell that he's trying his best to stay optimistic but knows that the game is shit and will end up becoming even worse.
It feels like he wants to believe that if he makes this video airing out the game's problems then they may be fixing the future, it feels like Sam's "please delay Balan Wonderworld" video all over again.
He really wants this to be good which is understandable but the extent he goes to is just sad, like how he says that he wants to make special infected profiles like how he did with L4D and a "why you wouldn't survive" on the game's zombie virus.
Btw this isn't just me speculating, he basically confirmed this in the comment section of a video posted by Tyler McVicker on February 24, 2021.
The main cast is really weird, I'm either fine with them or atleast think their designs aren't that bad but they just had to add the obligatory tomboy lesbian character.
