Apple Thread - The most overrated technology brand?

[ditto]

I've been reading some people saying that Apple Silicon is going to be beginning of the end of x86. Is this true? I was just thinking of building a PC right about now …

Hoping this will the trigger for some competition and innovation again. Qualcomm, Foxconn etc to finally get some decent ARM chips. And Microsoft to finally fix Windows on ARM. Microsoft have been pushing Windows on ARM forever and the results have been utter shit. They basically gave up on x86 on ARM because performance was so poor. Apple have lept so far ahead it's like an iPhone moment for laptops and desktops.

 

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Hoping this will the trigger for some competition and innovation again. Qualcomm, Foxconn etc to finally get some decent ARM chips. And Microsoft to finally fix Windows on ARM. Microsoft have been pushing Windows on ARM forever and the results have been utter shit. They basically gave up on x86 on ARM because performance was so poor. Apple have lept so far ahead it's like an iPhone moment for laptops and desktops.

I was reading the other day that MS had implemented 64-bit x86 emulation for Windows on ARM. That will also have been one of the bigger sticking points for adoption.

As you say though.. the emulation is potentially very bad. And in fairness, that's probably not just because it's being implemented poorly by a bunch of dotheads, a fresh installation of Windows 10 not only supports most of the old APIs they always have (apart from the really good stuff like 'Microsoft Agent', used by BonziBuddy), it contains special compatibility patches so that buggy software like old versions of AOL Instant Messenger can still install and run.

Break compatibility with old software and force customers to seriously consider whether, if they can't run the old stuff they have an investment in, there's any reason to be running Windows at all, OR, handicap any move off x86. Hmm...

 

[LegoTugboat]

I was reading the other day that MS had implemented 64-bit x86 emulation for Windows on ARM. That will also have been one of the bigger sticking points for adoption.

As you say though.. the emulation is potentially very bad. And in fairness, that's probably not just because it's being implemented poorly by a bunch of dotheads, a fresh installation of Windows 10 not only supports most of the old APIs they always have (apart from the really good stuff like 'Microsoft Agent', used by BonziBuddy), it contains special compatibility patches so that buggy software like old versions of AOL Instant Messenger can still install and run.

Break compatibility with old software and force customers to seriously consider whether, if they can't run the old stuff they have an investment in, there's any reason to be running Windows at all, OR, handicap any move off x86. Hmm...

It's an interesting look, since Apple can easily go 'Right, we're moving to this new system. Update your crap or gtfo.'. And we've seen that happen before with PPC to Intel, Mac OS Classic to OSX, 32 to 64 bit (Both Mac and iPhone), and to a lesser extent, OpenGL to Metal/Metal2.

It leads to a lot more dramatic advances and advantages, but in return, you're pretty actively culling older systems.

Microsoft's support, and emulation of older systems, is no joke honestly impressive, to the point where viruses from the 16 bit era have been able to run through emulation, but if that support was cut, you'd have businesses and companies using programs from 1995 or older complaining.

Honestly, the M1's an amazing chip, simply because it shows that yes, ARM can be really, really nasty on a desktop. We're seeing $900-1500 Mac Minis thrashing $3400 16 inch MBPs, and putting up a magnificent fight against $40,000+ MacPros. We're seeing $1200 fanless MacBook Airs beating iMacs, and lasting easily over 12 hours active use. We're seeing computers that, under active use, are blowing out air that's COLDER than room temperature.

It's an interesting moment for the industry, because if a Dell or HP laptop can only achieve half of Apple's boosts, say a 1.75x boost to CPU, and a 2x boost to integrated GPU, while achieving a comfortable 12-15 hours battery life, and hitting 60 C under load, and can still run modern x86 Windows programs, that still would make for a very formidable laptop.

 

[ditto]

As you say though.. the emulation is potentially very bad. And in fairness, that's probably not just because it's being implemented poorly by a bunch of dotheads, a fresh installation of Windows 10 not only supports most of the old APIs they always have (apart from the really good stuff like 'Microsoft Agent', used by BonziBuddy), it contains special compatibility patches so that buggy software like old versions of AOL Instant Messenger can still install and run.

IIRC they had an x86 translation working for their first generation of ARM Surfaces but abandoned it because it was very slow. And they were trying to get everyone to write Windows Phone 7 "Metro" apps instead.

It's an interesting moment for the industry, because if a Dell or HP laptop can only achieve half of Apple's boosts, say a 1.75x boost to CPU, and a 2x boost to integrated GPU, while achieving a comfortable 12-15 hours battery life, and hitting 60 C under load, and can still run modern x86 Windows programs, that still would make for a very formidable laptop.

.NET Core is where they seem to be focusing now, meaning even if they get M1 class hardware the software will still be running on the .NET CLR.
Swift software is all completely native with no garbage collections or JIT needed.

 

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.NET Core is where they seem to be focusing now, meaning even if they get M1 class hardware the software will still be running on the .NET CLR.
Swift software is all completely native with no garbage collections or JIT needed.

I'm sure there's some inefficiencies there, but things keep moving forward. Personally I don't know that I really like the idea of the self-contained .NET Core executables, but there's been some interesting stuff done with some of the alternative implementations.

 

[Never Scored]

I've been reading some people saying that Apple Silicon is going to be beginning of the end of x86. Is this true? I was just thinking of building a PC right about now …

I doubt it. Windows PCs are still like 80% of the market. At any rate, even if Microsoft makes an arm version of windows and everyone slowly migrates to arm, it's going to take quite a while for that process to happen. Unless you're building a PC you're still going to be using in a decade you should be fine.

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole]

Honestly, the M1's an amazing chip, simply because it shows that yes, ARM can be really, really nasty on a desktop. We're seeing $900-1500 Mac Minis thrashing $3400 16 inch MBPs, and putting up a magnificent fight against $40,000+ MacPros. We're seeing $1200 fanless MacBook Airs beating iMacs, and lasting easily over 12 hours active use. We're seeing computers that, under active use, are blowing out air that's COLDER than room temperature.

Apple can squeeze out performance by being the ones that designs the CPU, GPU and chipset, then writes the APIs, drivers and operating system. In the past consoles have punched above their weight using that approach. Apple is going for vertical integration and there's even been reports that they have been doing R&D for years to create their own display technology. Something like that is probably not possible on the modular PC/Windows platform unless Microsoft goes nuts with the Surface.

 

[AnOminous]

Apple is going for vertical integration and there's even been reports that they have been doing R&D for years to create their own display technology.

There was the Thunderbolt display years ago, and currently the Pro Display XDR. Not sure if that's what you mean by "display technology" but they were both fairly unique in picture quality, and had a lot of unique (and patented) features.

 

[ditto]

doing R&D for years to create their own display technology

Apple TrueTone displays are gorgeous and never seen anything else like it from another company.

 

[Ex Cummunicated Sasser HD]

Regarding the lack of software, yes, it's going to be an issue at first, but that's why the Rosetta 2 compatibility layer is there. Time will tell how well it works, but if it works as well as Rosetta 1 for running PPC programs on early Intel Macs, it'll be good enough.

I was able to run PPC Doom 3 at a solid 30fps at 1440x900 with Rosetta 1 on low with my 2006 MBP, but I would get around 5fps on Civ4 on lowest settings, so just ran the PC version in the Tiger Bootcamp Beta. Rosetta was weird, some things were actually quicker than running on a Dual 2.5Ghz G5, but most other things were not.

And holy fuck were Photoshop, Indesign and Final Cut slow before they went x86 a few months after. They were at best a tenth of the speed of them running on a 5 year older, slower G5. It was like running it on an old G3 with 128mb ram. At least Adobe released a Beta CS3 that was free to use for the 12 or so months it took them to release a fully x86 version. Final cut was a shitshow though. It was quicker on a G3 natively than Rosetta, but that's encoding speed more than anything. It was fun waiting 3-4 minutes just to apply a lens blur in PS though.

Like you said though, it will be good enough, until native arm apps start becoming the norm. It took 3 versions of OS X (Tiger-Leopard-Snow Leopard) before Rosetta got removed, and Universal Binaries only stopped being a thing then. I actually paid for a version of Quicktime, (You had to pay to play full screen and any encoding or DVD functionality back in the day) just to have full screen DVD or AVI video playback, because PPC VLC was also about 5 fps on Rosetta 1. x86 VLC took so long because of some codec issues as I remember, but don't quote me on that.

 

[Least Concern]

Apple has moved the first gen of 5K iMacs to the "vintage products" list (a)

On the one hand, these did start coming out in 2014, so they are getting a bit long in the tooth, in PC terms if not Mac ones. On the other hand… lol 5k is old shit yo

 

[ditto]

On the one hand, these did start coming out in 2014, so they are getting a bit long in the tooth, in PC terms if not Mac ones. On the other hand… lol 5k is old shit yo

The Apple II was made for 15 years. Yet now getting service for a 5 year old $5000 computer not possible because it's "vintage".

But we gotta eat bugs to save the environment instead of .. I don't know .. make computers that can last longer than a Netflix series.

 

[Least Concern]

The Apple II was made for 15 years.

Not totally fair because there were many different models of Apple II, and the III, Lisa, and Mac were also released during its lifetime. The IIGS itself was really only a II for marketing purposes - but it certainly blew every model before it out of the water in terms of power and capability.

 

[Never Scored]

The Apple II was made for 15 years. Yet now getting service for a 5 year old $5000 computer not possible because it's "vintage".

But we gotta eat bugs to save the environment instead of .. I don't know .. make computers that can last longer than a Netflix series.

I don't think Apple is under any obligation to provide long-term support for any of its products, however I do think intentionally preventing someone from installing whatever operating system they please on a computer that they own outright and is their property should be illegal, and I think that's the real issue with Apple. Fuck off it's mine, I bought it, let me do what I fucking want with it. Imagine if automakers actively prevented you from using aftermarket parts.

 

[LegoTugboat]

A quick thing to note.

Baldur's Gate 3 can indeed run on a M1 Mac at Ultra, with the caveats being an 8 core GPU and 16 GB RAM. For an Air or 8 GB, Medium is recommended.

Now, Apple did their apps roundup for the year, and the winners in each category, and honourable mentions, each get this nifty thing, which is a physical award slightly smaller than a Mac Mini from what I've heard, and has the program/game in question engraved on the other side.

iPhone App of the Year: Wakeout!, developed by Andres Canella.
iPad App of the Year: Zoom.
Mac App of the Year: Fantastical, developed by Flexibits.
Apple TV App of the Year: Disney+.
Apple Watch App of the Year: Endel.

iPhone Game of the Year: “Genshin Impact,” from miHoYo.
iPad Game of the Year: “Legends of Runeterra,” from Riot Games.
Mac Game of the Year: “Disco Elysium,” from ZA/UM.
Apple TV Game of the Year: “Dandara Trials of Fear,” from Long Hat House.
Apple Arcade Game of the Year: “Sneaky Sasquatch,” from RAC7.

Honourable mentions to Shine, Explain Everything Whiteboard, Caribu, Pokemon GO, ShareTheMeal.

 

[Pissmaster]

Not totally fair because there were many different models of Apple II, and the III, Lisa, and Mac were also released during its lifetime. The IIGS itself was really only a II for marketing purposes - but it certainly blew every model before it out of the water in terms of power and capability.

The best argument I could give in favor of Apple is that security concerns went through the roof once home computers started going online, leading to awkward shit like several thousand dollar Macbooks from a few years ago being eternally susceptible to Heartbleed because Intel fucked up. Meanwhile, the Apple II was a straightforward, versatile computer with a common CPU that could really do whatever you'd need an 8-bit computer for at the time. The upgrade-every-few-years cycle with home computers wasn't really much of a thing until they started going online.

That being said, it'd be pretty nice if those old, vintage, retro 5K Macs from the stone age could be used as monitors, like if I could just buy a used one and rig it up to my desktop and have a color accurate display for professional shitposting.

 

[Least Concern]

Just a reminder that this happened.

Oh, and also, Apple officially announced the long-rumored "Studio AirPods" under the name AirPods Max. Here's what your $550 will get you.

…or at least will get you in March or so, seeing as how they're already backordered that far.

 

[AnOminous]

I don't think Apple is under any obligation to provide long-term support for any of its products, however I do think intentionally preventing someone from installing whatever operating system they please on a computer that they own outright and is their property should be illegal, and I think that's the real issue with Apple. Fuck off it's mine, I bought it, let me do what I fucking want with it. Imagine if automakers actively prevented you from using aftermarket parts.

You can install Windows 10 or Linux or other shit onto a Mac though. It's their phones that suck for that.

 

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You can install Windows 10 or Linux or other shit onto a Mac though. It's their phones that suck for that.

Apparently things are a lot more locked down (at least as far as _booting_ directly into other OSs goes) with the ARM switch.

 

[ditto]

Apparently things are a lot more locked down (at least as far as _booting_ directly into other OSs goes) with the ARM switch.

It looks like it's possible to unlock the bootloader to allow other OSes to install. But since Apple isn't providing any drivers for their proprietary chips it'll be more like a Linux desktop in 1993 than a real alternative to macOS.

Worryingly it looks like the M1 Macs need to phone home if you want to do a complete system reset.