- Joined
- Nov 17, 2015
It's like how cancer causes cell phones.
Anti-Vax Movement
- Thread starter Dalish
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- Joined
- Jun 18, 2015
I can't believe this thread is dead.
Took a quick 10 minute spin around facebook and just skimmed the surface and found tons of batshit insanity.
Found a guy with a rational comment who was immediately beset on by screeching white middle class mothers.
I assumed at first the Lindsay Prior reply was just being a smart ass... However
... nope. She was serious about The Brady Bunch.
Next up: "I'm just gonna spout some bullshit into this echo chamber about the current outbreak in 2019 and hope no one asks for a source"
[Citation Needed]
Lastly:
This particular FB Antivax community is conflicted on Antibiotics now that one of them has a treatable infection, you know... the treatment of infections using Epidemiology? The same Epidemiology that produced vaccines.
They almost became self aware.
Also, Why is this in Deep Thoughts and not in Community Watch? @Feline Darkmage @Smutley @Alan Pardew
Took a quick 10 minute spin around facebook and just skimmed the surface and found tons of batshit insanity.
Found a guy with a rational comment who was immediately beset on by screeching white middle class mothers.
I assumed at first the Lindsay Prior reply was just being a smart ass... However
... nope. She was serious about The Brady Bunch.
Next up: "I'm just gonna spout some bullshit into this echo chamber about the current outbreak in 2019 and hope no one asks for a source"
[Citation Needed]
Lastly:
This particular FB Antivax community is conflicted on Antibiotics now that one of them has a treatable infection, you know... the treatment of infections using Epidemiology? The same Epidemiology that produced vaccines.
They almost became self aware.
Also, Why is this in Deep Thoughts and not in Community Watch? @Feline Darkmage @Smutley @Alan Pardew
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Sawmill
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2019
Well you know it’s brainwashing when they cannot even allow any type of middle ground take on the situation. Like they’re fiercely defending faceless corporations that we’re freed from all liability in the 80s so they can’t be sued if they fuck up and are not subject to the same stringent requirements of testing and reporting that other types of drugs are subject too. If it’s all totally legit why not argue for more transparency and test findings and review if for no other reason than to shut anti vaccine arguments down? It’s not defending vaccines on principle that’s weird it’s operating on the assumption that the current system is perfect and needs no improvement and is beyond reproach. That’s always been my problem with the vaccine advocate crowd it actually makes them look far worse than who they are attacking.
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2017
The new fad is to not get your baby a Vitamin K shot. Babies need this because some of them will bleed from their brains without it and doctors have no way of knowing which babies that will happen to, so they give it to all of them. Newborns have already died from not getting the Vitamin K.
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- Joined
- Oct 31, 2018
There's no middle ground to take on the situation because one side is right and the other is fucking wrong. There is not a single shred of evidence that vaccines cause autism. There is no middle ground to be reached with people that believe in complete bullshit.
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2016
I'm not sure, was probably a decision from higher ups years ago, before I was in charge of moderating anything.
Sawmill
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2019
Well thank god I didn't claim that vaccines cause autism then and your reaction is showing exactly how fucking militant people are.
The US government institutions are capable of conducting large scale detailed studies on the adverse effects and absolutely refuse to do so. When an independent body like the Lancet even attempts to look at the data they are quickly shutdown.
The US government has also paid out BILLIONS in damages to families who were victims of vaccination because Big Pharma literally wrote the law to say the US is liable for all damages caused by their vaccines.
And no correlation isn't causation, but perhaps it will give some of you a moment to consider we might not need every single vaccine that we're being sold.
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- Joined
- Aug 20, 2015
Do you want polio? Because this is how you get polio.
lol that's not who pays out lawsuits dipshit
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2017
Yeah, it's so unfair that I can't take a middle ground between heliocentrism and geocentrism without being laughed at. Fucking brainwashed sheeple.
Sawmill
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2019
Research into adverse effects of vaccines causes polio?
First, no, it's the US government that is liable for vaccine injuries. And they have paid out billions already since 1989
Http://hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/vaccinecompensation/data/statisticsreport.pdf
We study adverse effects of all types of medicine. But it's only for vaccinations that it's not the pharmaceutical companies, but the US government that is liable. (In Canada there is no vaccination injury program). And as said they have paid billions already for vaccine injuries, with an average of roughly 100 million dollar per year since 1989 (see link for source).
Comgress created the VICP (National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program) as part of the 1986 law. One of the four stated goals was to insulate the industry and medical profession from liability (the others were 1. creating national immunization infrastructure, 2. Compensation for the injured, 3. Safer vaccines)
Starting in 1988 no vaccine manufacturer was liable for vaccine related injury or death for recommended vaccines. (Assuming the vaccine was properly prepared and with proper directions and warnings).
Sawmill
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2019
This is kinda funny, because everybody likes to imagine themselves to be galileo or on his side, the bringer of truth on face of adversity. I gotta admit, me too.
Keep in mind that Galileo had not finished college and his reputation of criticizing aristotlian philosophy caused educated men to look down on him as a buffoon.
If Galileo had asked for transparency and research, you might have dismissed it.
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- Joined
- Jun 13, 2016
Yes, because rather they have an autistic child than one that's fucking DEAD of preventable diseases.
Argument based on package inserts in 3, 2, 1...
Sawmill
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2019
I don't have the data on the exact proportion of injuries that the US government paid out for as the result of vaccination, if you do please share it. You may note I didn't mention autism, so it's clear you're arguing with a strawmill, not talking with me.
I do know that there is more than one instance of the US government paying out for death as a result of vaccine. I can support it with evidence if you are interested.
When your child is dead as a result of vaccination, it's accurate to call your family a victim of vaccination.
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- Joined
- Jun 18, 2015
Got a chart like this that shows reported INFECTIONS and not DEATHS? This chart is misleading when vaccines are intended to prevent INFECTIONS and not DEATHS.
Would be a shame to point at this chart and say we don't need vaccines based on deaths when so many other factors like medical advances in the understanding of viruses and bacteria in the 30's and 40's (among many other things) enabled us as to save infected individuals.
Cleanliness standards, understanding of toxicology, disease progression, human anatomy and function... these all progressed significantly in the early 20th century and all contributed to the chart's data.
Imagine overloading the healthcare system with the demand of saving millions of people with highly infectious, preventable diseases because we decided vaccines are nothing but a government conspiracy to line big pharma's pockets.
It's a pretty easy cycle to see:
>Humans get infected easily by a disease
>Humans go to hospital and overwhelm the healthcare system
>Humans demand someone keep them from getting infected 'cause kids and elderly can die from it.
>Humans invent vaccine that prevents most infections
>Humans get better
>Humans forget how shitty it was
>Humans stop taking vaccine because we're dumb and easily confused
>Humans get infected easily by a disease
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Sawmill
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2019
That only holds if the only two options are a shakespearian "to vaccinate or not to vaccinate".
First, not every developed country has the same vaccines, so choices are already being made which vaccines you use and which you don't (for a whole host of reasons including cost, insurance and incidence of infections in that country).
Second, the CDC has suppressed on more than one occassion information about adverse effects of vaccines. This has gone to such a degree that sometimes doctors resign as a result of their conscience.
The choices of which vaccinations to use and which to discontinue can be made better if we promote a healthier culture of transparancy and accountability. The more accurate our information, the better we can reduce medical needs.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2015
Sawmill
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2019
I was already typing a response to that request in a seperate post. I see that you have both edited your post and posted this.
Please extend the minimal courtesy of assuming that it's possible that I'm posting in good faith as I read your new full post and respond to your request.
I don't mean to say I mind that you've edited your post, I understand and have a habit of it myself. Just let me read what you wrote first.
I do not and it's definitely an interesting and important point. If you have the data, I'd love to see or read it.
It's not as if the data about deaths is unimportant. Death prevention is often touted as an argument, and reasonably so.
This is a hole in the argumentation though. As you might have read @Ginger Piglet argued that vaccines are worth it even if they cause adverse non-deadly effects, because they prevent death. This isn't the case for the measles vaccine, as you can see. So then it becomes a case of weighing cost and adverse effects of either taking or not taking the vaccine.
It might still be a good idea to continue. It might not be. If the CDC could stop suppressing data that would be nice. If studies were done on adverse effects, that would be better.
I do think the general arguments are skund: infections being an important vector, rather than just death and that alive with adverse effects is prefferable to death.
Though in a hypothetical 20% chance of adverse effect and 0.01% chance of death, I'm not sure I'd choose the same, but in most cases life is prefferable regardless of the chance.
For non lethal diseases it's quite a different story.
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- Joined
- Jun 18, 2015
From the CDC - https://www.cdc.gov/measles/vaccination.html
Before the measles vaccination program started in 1963, an estimated 3 to 4 million people got measles each year in the United States. Of these, approximately 500,000 cases were reported each year to CDC; of these, 400 to 500 died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 1,000 developed encephalitis (brain swelling) from measles. Since then, widespread use of measles vaccine has led to a greater than 99% reduction in measles cases compared with the pre-vaccine era. However, measles is still common in other countries.
Ok let's use your numbers, go with the anti-vax DEATH chart (not infections) and measles. The measles vaccine is studied to be 93% effective. So while I can use that number, I'll use your 20% of "adverse effects" just to be fair.
- No vaccines - everyone in a given population could be infected by a highly contagious disease and require healthcare to stay alive/feel better/recover.
- Vaccines - 20% of everyone in a given population could be infected and require healthcare to stay alive/feel better/recover OR suffer adverse affects
- Given population = 8,550,405 people (New York City population as of 201-8
- Measles case-fatality rate, approx .02% (CDC 2015 report https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/meas.html)
- No vaccines - 1710 (.02% of NYC's current population) people could die from an epidemic that goes unchecked by immunity.
- Vaccines - 342 people could die from an epidemic kept in check by immunity. (1710081 20% of NYC's population * .02)
Measles brings the potential for other problems. Pneumonia, Encephalitis, Pregnancy problems in expectant mothers.
The labor workforce can break down. Millions of people who can't afford high medical bills would incur them because they were infected but cured and didn't die, leading to an economic problem. People would spread the disease to other high population centers and without a shield of immunity, would spread unchecked there as well.
This isn't about deaths. This is about creating a safeguard against unchecked spreading.
And I'm going to trust the CDC before I trust randos with source-less opinions on facebook and forums that claim it's a big pharma conspiracy to make money. For the good of humanity, I'll give them my money so some kid doesn't die of a preventable infection.
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