Anime/Manga - Discuss Japanese cartoons and comics here; NO CULTURE WAR DOOMPOSTING!

[Oilspill Battery]

but I do not think that Frieren at the Funeral could have gotten away with saying "it's magic, I don't have to explain shit", and expected the setting to work at all.

I think it could by sheer virtue of the fact that it was setting itself up to be a small scale personal character driven story. They are not going to kill the demon lord, its just a trip down memory lane after the fact is already done.

Stuff like power levels and mage ranks and whatever else should be inconsequential at best and non-existent at worst. The stakes aren't "Is frieren strong enough to kill the demon lord", its "will frieren reconcile with her memories of the past".

How magic works is irrelevant because it should have no bearing on the main conflict or stakes of the story being told, its just set dressing. Frieren uses magic as a hobby, but the magic she likes to use isn't even battle magic, its shit like making flowers.

Its whimsy, you don't need a magic system for whimsy because then you take all the whimsy out of it. Its like trying to powerscale the wizard from the sorcerer's apprentice.

 

[Oddjob OTP]

I think it could by sheer virtue of the fact that it was setting itself up to be a small scale personal character driven story. They are not going to kill the demon lord, its just a trip down memory lane after the fact is already done.

Stuff like power levels and mage ranks and whatever else should be inconsequential at best and non-existent at worst. The stakes aren't "Is frieren strong enough to kill the demon lord", its "will frieren reconcile with her memories of the past".

How magic works is irrelevant because it should have no bearing on the main conflict or stakes of the story being told, its just set dressing. Frieren uses magic as a hobby, but the magic she likes to use isn't even battle magic, its shit like making flowers.

Its whimsy, you don't need a magic system for whimsy because then you take all the whimsy out of it. Its like trying to powerscale the wizard from the sorcerer's apprentice.

That stopped being a viable way to do the narrative in episode 3 when they fight Qual with high speed magic missile spam. You could have an anime with sages that learned to read ancient civilization glyphs and know non-combat spells to mend clothes and make fields of flowers and just exist as supports but you can't ALSO have them flying around and firing lasers without having to lay out limits to their powers. I'm sorry it took you 18 episodes to realize that you weren't watching the anime you thought you were from episode 1 and 2.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

That stopped being a viable way to do the narrative in episode 3 when they fight Qual with high speed magic missile spam. You could have an anime with sages that learned to read ancient civilization glyphs and know non-combat spells to mend clothes and make fields of flowers and just exist as supports but you can't ALSO have them flying around and firing lasers without having to lay out limits to their powers. I'm sorry it took you 18 episodes to realize that you weren't watching the anime you thought you were from episode 1 and 2.

The totality of the Qual "fight" was like 5 seconds, and served an actual purpose with the main message and narrative of the story that time flies by. The idea that the strongest spell in history 50 years ago is just a mundane regular attack today actually fits into the themes that time, technology, and knowledge flies on by and the world moves on even when you don't directly notice or perceive it. It was a clever subversion that fit the themes that the show was setting up.

you can't ALSO have them flying around and firing lasers without having to lay out limits to their powers.

You only need to set limits to their powers if their powers are relevant to the stakes and the plot itself. If its gonna be a battle shonen, you need limits, if its going to be an introspective personal story about memory you don't. The main antagonist isn't a demon that you need to fire missles at, its the passage of time and memory, how strong wizards are has no bearing on that.

Like I said above, you don't need to powerscale the wizard from sorcerer's apprentice because it has no bearing on the outcome of the story he's in.

 

[WelperHelper99]

That stopped being a viable way to do the narrative in episode 3 when they fight Qual with high speed magic missile spam. You could have an anime with sages that learned to read ancient civilization glyphs and know non-combat spells to mend clothes and make fields of flowers and just exist as supports but you can't ALSO have them flying around and firing lasers without having to lay out limits to their powers. I'm sorry it took you 18 episodes to realize that you weren't watching the anime you thought you were from episode 1 and 2.

Yeah I thought it made it clear that magic was going to be high speed low drag at that point. It still was and is kino.

Caught up on anime this morning. Frieren continues to be GOATED and Fate continues to have my undivided attention. The priest-vampire fight was kino

 

[Oddjob OTP]

The totality of the Qual "fight" was like 5 seconds, and served an actual purpose with the main message and narrative of the story that time flies by. The idea that the strongest spell in history 50 years ago is just a mundane regular attack today actually fits into the themes that time, technology, and knowledge flies on by and the world moves on even when you don't directly notice or perceive it. It was a clever subversion that fit the themes that the show was setting up.

But it also established the Why of why Himmel's party needed a wizard; magic is powerful and really good at killing and the best defense against wizards is more (better) wizards.

You only need to set limits to their powers if their powers are relevant to the stakes and the plot itself. If its gonna be a battle shonen, you need limits, if its going to be an introspective personal story about memory you don't. They aren't storming normandy, they're holding a reitrement party after the fact.

Like I said above, you don't need to powerscale the wizard from sorcerer's apprentice because it has no bearing on the outcome of the story he's in.

I think if episodes 4-17 had been all navel gazing and cute elf does cute things and Friren and Fern's skill took a back seat to talking out our problems you'd have a point but it didn't happen like that. Magic kept on getting brought up and it kept on being the answer to problems. Which brings up the question of what magic can and can't do which has to be answered eventually to make for a satisfying narrative.

Frieren does have a lot of navel gazing so I understand why you might have been tricked into thinking you were watching something like Girls Last Tour but I think the implications of episode 3 makes it crystal clear that it you wanted no combat powerscaling you were baited and switched.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

But it also established the Why of why Himmel's party needed a wizard; magic is powerful and really good at killing and the best defense against wizards is more (better) wizards.

Yeah but we're not following Himmel's party anymore, we're following the picture album that came after the fact.

I think if episodes 4-17 had been all navel gazing and cute elf does cute things and Friren and Fern's skill took a back seat to talking out our problems you'd have a point but it didn't happen like that. Magic kept on getting brought up and it kept on being the answer to problems. Which brings up the question of what magic can and can't do which has to be answered eventually to make for a satisfying narrative.

Frieren does have a lot of navel gazing so I understand why you might have been tricked into thinking you were watching something like Girls Last Tour but I think the implications of episode 3 makes it crystal clear that it you wanted no combat powerscaling you were baited and switched.

The thing is, there's the issue of proportionality. Having a little bit of magic to solve some encounters that for the most part are afterthoughts to the main story isn't that big an issue, which is why people who dislike the tournament arc didn't mind them, because they weren't the main point, they were just minor throwaway obstacles for the main conflict of retracing the memories of the old party, and actually were relevant to the main conflict.

The affomentioned part with Qual showing how time passes and the world moves on, or the chaos plant where you had the priest talk about frieren was always hard to read and at the end of the day its best to take her at her word to the now grown up kid he spoke to long ago. Both encounters also ended in the span of 5 seconds. Yes, combat encounters existed, but they were for the most part brief, and served the overarching narrative of fleshing out the hero's party and frieren's outlook on the world. Combat was not the focus, which is why it almost always ended instantly.

The argument that some magical combat existed in brief 5 second spurts, ergo you shouldn't be surprised with a 10 episode long battle shonen tournament arc is like saying "Well you were adding salt to the cake mix to help denature the egg protein anyway, why are you annoyed that I poured the entire bag in?"

 

[Oddjob OTP]

The affomentioned part with Qual showing how time passes without noticing, or the chaos plant where you had the priest talk about frieren was always hard to read and at the end of the day its best to take her at her word to the now grown up kid he spoke to long ago. Both encounters also ended in the span of 5 seconds. Yes, combat encounters existed, but they were for the most part brief, and served the overarching narrative of fleshing out the hero's party and frieren's outlook on the world. Combat was not the focus, which is why it almost always ended instantly.

I think the EXTREME SPEED and apparent effortlessness that magic solves every problem raises more questions about limits then if they spent 80 percent of the episode pointing staves and mumbling power words. And since they keep doing it and it keeps being important they have to explain eventually.

And it's not as though the balance of talking to fighting changes much in the tournament arc, they still just hang around in caves and have interpersonal conversations with the new characters that flesh out the world for wizards that aren't professional hobos and then Fern/Frieren dust themselves off and cast super high speed magic missiles to beat Rockgirl/Denken in 2 minute fights and they they return to how to talking about how to win by tricking magical birds.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

I think the EXTREME SPEED and apparent effortlessness that magic solves every problem raises more questions about limits then if they spent 80 percent of the episode pointing staves and mumbling power words. And since they keep doing it and it keeps being important they have to explain.

This is my main question, why is it important to explain? Magic is not relevant to the main conflict of the story, so why does it need to be explained if it has zero bearing on the central outcome? They may as well have spent 10 episodes explaining how weaving techniques have advanced for tailors in the past 50 years.

And it's not as though the balance of talking to fighting changes much in the tournament arc,

No, but the tournament arc is also 10 episodes long. If they spent 10 episodes on quen talking about about the individual progression and powerscaling of spells in the span of 50 years I would also think that was dogshit.

Hell, quen's very existence is relevant to the main concept of the story, the demon was sealed 50 years ago by a party that couldn't defeat him and now frieren finally showed up to finish him off with modern methods. It plays with the concept of the two timelines in an actually clever way.

Do remember that like half the quen episode is about himmel revisiting the old village to check on the seal and talking about frieren as an old man too.

 

[Lone MacReady II]

I usually ignore the latest frontlines in the online fandom culture war nonsense and never let it detract from my enjoyment of a series, but I still can't help but note Tojima Wants to Be a Kamen Rider has had a lot of idiotic discourse going on about it, especially from the sort of people who don't really watch any anime outside of clips of "aura" and "hype" moments

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At this point "nazi" just means "logical person who hates foreign rapists and doesn't want to be killed by jewish imports". I'll gladly be tarred with that brush, foreign rapists are no good, and the Rothschild FED is the reason no one here can afford a house.

Caught up on anime this morning. Frieren continues to be GOATED and Fate continues to have my undivided attention. The priest-vampire fight was kino

I'm a little annoyed Hansa "Coffee" Cervantes let the DA escape... Like surely he could tell the kid with the exact same hair and eyes to the DA was suspect as fuck... You'd think he'd be able to sense him. I'm definitely liking the show though, episode 2 is still the best one. I guess I'm just a Saber junkie. Next week should be good.

 

[WelperHelper99]

I'm a little annoyed Hansa "Coffee" Cervantes let the DA escape... Like surely he could tell the kid with the exact same hair and eyes to the DA was suspect as fuck... You'd think he'd be able to sense him. I'm definitely liking the show though, episode 2 is still the best one. I guess I'm just a Saber junkie. Next week should be good.
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Yeah it was a bit of an asspull, but I'm guessing they don't want to kill off a master this early, so it's excusable, at least to me

 

[Oddjob OTP]

This is my main question, why is it important to explain? Magic is not relevant to the main conflict of the story, so why does it need to be explained if it has zero bearing on the central outcome? They may as well have spent 10 episodes explaining how weaving techniques have advanced for tailors in the past 50 years.

It's fine if Friern and Fern are the only functioning wizards. Gandalf is allowed to be a shitty fighter using staff/sword because no one uses overt magic against him and the fellowship. Magic exists in Middle Earth but casting spells is not what the LotRs is about. Same can't be said about Fieren which establishes that magic isn't some esoteric knowledge that only the maiar LARPing as humans and a few elvish leaders bother with. It's established in episode 3 as living and breathing and common enough among humans and omnipresent among demons. You can only get away with not explaining magic if they never again encounter a hostile wizard or any of the magical creatures that have spell-like powers. Spell casting was always central to the plot and solving every problem with it builds up a narrative debt because we need to know what if anything will give Frieren a problem that she can't solve with magic missile.

No, but the tournament arc is also 10 episodes long.

I think a more reasonable reckoning for the tournament part of the arc is 4 episodes, I don't consider "everyone is on the same team doing a dungeon crawl" and Serie doing interviews to be a tournament. But either way it's mostly flashbacks and banter and other forms of world building and if you compare it to actual shonen tournaments it's very, very different. I think it's consistent enough with how the rest of the anime treats it's fight to dialogue ratio. It also is probably the cleanest way to introduce Serie to the series along with the many other character who (apparently, not currently reading the manga) come back later.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Magic exists in Middle Earth but casting spells is not what the LotRs is about.

Exactly, this is literally what I'm getting at. Casting spells is not what frieren is about either, the main conflict in frieren is not martial, its emotional.

Spell casting was always central to the plot and solving every problem with it builds up a narrative debt because we need to know what if anything will give Frieren a problem that she can't solve with magic missile.

Saying that you need to know how magic works because you need to know if anything will give frieren a problem is missing the point of the premise. For all intents and purposes frieren is saitama. The conflict is not whether or not she can oneshot the bad guy, its literally everything except that.

The problems in Frieren aren't martial problems that can be solved by force, they're indirect obstacles that you have to solve with actual understanding and are more about what you learn on the way.

Finding the flower field by following a squirrel, dealing with the senile old man, discovering the meaning of lotus ring meaning eternal love, replacing the lost son of a king and so on and so forth.

When you were watching one punch man, was the main thing on your mind "God, when are they gonna powerscale saitama? I need to know how his powers work so I know if he's in trouble." Obviously not, because that's not the conflict.

Its literally the same thing here, every single problem frieren faces is one that can't be solved with magic missle because none of her problems are martial.

It also is probably the cleanest way to introduce Serie to the series along with the many other character who (apparently, not currently reading the manga) come back later.

To go back to the LoTR example, imagine if Boromir had to enter a warrior exam for the party to be allowed to progress closer to mordor, and the exam is how legolas and aragorn were introduced. If you want to introduce important characters, there's a million ways to introduce characters organically instead of shotgunning them into a tournament partway into the story.

I think a more reasonable reckoning for the tournament part of the arc is 4 episodes, I don't consider "everyone is on the same team doing a dungeon crawl" and Serie doing interviews to be a tournament.

Its 10 episodes of them stuck in the same plotline and same location when nearly every other episode was part of the road trip dealing with a different issue each time. I don't think its an unfair assessment to lump the whole thing in a single basket.

 

[Professor Donger]

My girlfriend and I have started binge-watching Yu-Gi-Oh. It's kind of funny watching her experience the shit that I got to experience when I was a kid. She's surprisingly enjoying it.

 

[WelperHelper99]

My girlfriend and I have started binge-watching Yu-Gi-Oh. It's kind of funny watching her experience the shit that I got to experience when I was a kid. She's surprisingly enjoying it.

Yu-Gi-Oh is peak 2000's core. I loved that show so much. First anime i pirated, back when Youtube was cool and let you upload full episodes lol.

 

[Oddjob OTP]

Exactly, this is literally what I'm getting at. Casting spells is not what frieren is about either, the main conflict in frieren is not martial, its emotional.

But it is established as "wizards in a wizard setting solving wizard problems with spells on their way to the place to do the thing" 3 episodes in. Most of the episodes at best are flash backs and exposition centered around monster of the week stories. You can not want it to be something else but if it took until episode 18 for you to realize that magic powerscaling was necessary for stories about wizards solving wizard problems with spells to land that's on you.

Meanwhile, LotRs is not remotely about that and aside from Gandalf going super saiyan off screen to finish off the balor Gandalf does a couple party tricks and dispenses advice because he follows the code that he shouldn't use magic. So they kind of suck as a comparison; we don't need LotR magic powerscaling because magic is irrelevant to the story. We do need Frieren's powers to be defined because she gets in wizard battles with other wizards and magical beasts throughout the whole story.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

You can not want it to be something else but if it took until episode 18 for you to realize that magic powerscaling was necessary for stories about wizards solving wizard problems with spells to land that's on you.

that magic powerscaling was necessary for stories about wizards solving wizard problems with spells to land that's on you.

Except this isn't a story about wizards solving wizard problems with spells, its a story about people solving human problems with dialogue.

The only magic relevant to the actual problems is magic that doesn't require powerscaling, like tracking squirrels or jewelry.

We do need Frieren's powers to be defined because she gets in wizard battles with other wizards and magical beasts throughout the whole story.

Tell me, would you apply this logic to saitama's powers and one punch man? Do you think saitama's powers need to be defined because he gets in battles constantly?

Or would that be completely pointless because saitama fighting stuff is not the point of the story and completely incidental to the actual central conflict of his character?

 

[Professor Donger]

Yu-Gi-Oh is peak 2000's core. I loved that show so much. First anime i pirated, back when Youtube was cool and let you upload full episodes lol.

It, along with Digimon and Naruto, were some of the earliest anime that I watched growing up and tried to catch whenever it was on. We got to the episode with the Fake Kaiba, and afterwards my girl just goes "Why the fuck is this dumb kids' show making me feel things!"

She also wants this to be her discord profile pic now.

 

[WelperHelper99]

It, along with Digimon and Naruto, were some of the earliest anime that I watched growing up and tried to catch whenever it was on. We got to the episode with the Fake Kaiba, and afterwards my girl just goes "Why the fuck is this dumb kids' show making me feel things!"

Because it was written by a great man who loved games.

She also wants this to be her discord profile pic now.

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Amazing.

 

[Professor Donger]

Because it was written by a great man who loved games.

One of the things that's been bugging me about the fans of the show is how they use the modern games rules to try and say characters in the show were cheating, when it's very clear that the show goes by vibes, even when they start actually following the rules of the card game, since the card game developed after the manga/show.

 

[WelperHelper99]

One of the things that's been bugging me about the fans of the show is how they use the modern games rules to try and say characters in the show were cheating, when it's very clear that the show goes by vibes, even when they start actually following the rules of the card game, since the card game developed after the manga/show.

The game came after the show/manga got traction. It was also why the dub was the way it was. They were targeting that elementary-middle school demographic to sell cards too with the Duel Monsters show, and so we got funny moments like invisible guns. It was only because it got negotiated ahead of time, that the last season was much more serious.