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Coster said:
Goku didn't contribute energy to Gohan's Kamehameha, he just encouraged him to put everything he had into one moment when Cell wasn't paying attention.
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"Seeing this chance and encouraged by Goku, Gohan unleashes all the rest of his power and power channeled to him by the spirit of Goku[3] into the Father-Son Kamehameha, overpowering the Solar Kamehameha and destroying Super Perfect Cell once and for all."

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Father-Son_Kamehameha

Why would they name the move the "Father-Son Kamehameha" if Goku had nothing to do with its power? Even Xenoverse states that the Father-Son Kamehameha combines both energies of Goku and either Gohan or Goten.

As for Buu, Vegito was toying with him the whole time so he could goad him into absorbing him and have the chance to cut everyone else out from him. How are you going to ask me if I even watched DBZ when you left out all of these important details? Especially considering that the Spirit Bomb was powered by Earth, Other World, and a hell of a lot more sources of energy than the one in the Frieza saga did.
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Vegito's power level was way under Majin Buu's, and Goku's pride made it so that Vegito couldn't be formed again while facing Kid Buu. This is another critical point, if Goku was willing to accept help in the past like in the Cell Games then why was he so hellbent on destroying Buu on his own? This further cements the "Goku gets the spotlight" treatment, becoming Vegito again wouldn't have had the need to power the Spirit Bomb which I will give you credit for.

Right, but there's also inconsistencies in GT that prevent it from being canon. It counts the movie villains as part of the series (because when Hell breaks loose many villains from both the original series and movies are shown running amok), it completely throws the lore on its head (Vegeta gaining the Blutz waves and turning into a Golden Great Ape made no sense for him having no tail because it was explicitly stated before that the glands necessary to transform into a Great Ape are only present in the tail), and the character's feats themselves are so inconsistent. We have Goku withstanding Nuova Shenron whose as hot as the sun, then at the same time he expressed shock and surprise at Omega for blowing up a single city, gets cut by glass, and two SSJ4s struggle to hold up a single building.
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Nitpicking here.

-The villains from the movies could have been killed offscreen by someone else. Just because they are from the movies doesn't mean Goku fought them in that timeline. Not one of the villains from the movies addresses the characters like they have fought each other before.

-Vegeta going Super Saiyan coincidentally after Goku can be used as an argument as well. Vegeta had darkness in his heart still by the time he went Super Saiyan and still couldn't quite control his ki, how is it that right after Goku attained SS that he did it too? Nowhere in the Japanese sub does it state that Saiyans need to have the tail go Super Saiyan, they can if they want to get to Great Ape form but not Golden Great Ape (in the Dragon Books, it says that once someone goes Great Ape any form of Super Saiyan is theoretically accessible) . And even if it did, Vegeta gained SSJ4 artificially, not naturally.

-That doesn't make GT not canon, as it has nothing to do with time placement or misleading events that deviate prior history. It's just mediocre writing, something that the other 2 series had.
 
So... This discussion has gotten me to read Dr. Slump.

I'm liking it so far.
 
Asuka said:
Vegito's power level was way under Majin Buu's, and Goku's pride made it so that Vegito couldn't be formed again while facing Kid Buu. This is another critical point, if Goku was willing to accept help in the past like in the Cell Games then why was he so hellbent on destroying Buu on his own? This further cements the "Goku gets the spotlight" treatment, becoming Vegito again wouldn't have had the need to power the Spirit Bomb which I will give you credit for.
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When they unfused in Buu's body Vegeta crushed the Potara. Refusing wasn't a choice. Also, hahahaha, no. Vegito massively overpowered Buu the whole time they were fighting, he was turned into a coffee candy and was still kicking his ass.
Asuka said:
-Vegeta going Super Saiyan coincidentally after Goku can be used as an argument as well. Vegeta had darkness in his heart still by the time he went Super Saiyan and still couldn't quite control his ki, how is it that right after Goku attained SS that he did it too?
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Because requiring a pure heart to become a Super Saiyan was a complete overstatement and just part of the original legend, later shown by the fact that Goku outright explains to Gohan that the power of a Super Saiyan comes in response to a need and not a want. All it takes is extreme emotion (unless the person is a child of someone who can already transform or possesses the necessary amount of power to do it) and reaching a certain bar for strength.
Asuka said:
Nowhere in the Japanese sub does it state that Saiyans need to have the tail go Super Saiyan, they can if they want to get to Great Ape form but not Golden Great Ape (in the Dragon Books, it says that once someone goes Great Ape any form of Super Saiyan is theoretically accessible) . And even if it did, Vegeta gained SSJ4 artificially, not naturally.
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I didn't say it did, I said the Saiyan requires a tail to transform into Great Ape/Golden Great Ape. With no Golden Great Ape, there's no maturing into SSJ4. The tail possesses the glands necessary to trigger the transformation and hold it, which is why cutting off their tail reverts them to normal because they can't transform without it. Regardless of how many Blutz waves Vegeta got shot up with it makes no logical sense that he'd transform without the glands in the tail, a huge error in GT.
Asuka said:
-The villains from the movies could have been killed offscreen by someone else. Just because they are from the movies doesn't mean Goku fought them in that timeline. Not one of the villains from the movies addresses the characters like they have fought each other before.
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Just because they could have been by weak argumentation doesn't mean they were.
 
trombonista said:
No he didn't, they were humans whom he turned into cyborgs.
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The only human thing about them is their brains and sex organs. You might be thinking "well its human brains so duh" but remember that the Androids have hive minds and had their previous memories erased. Gero reprogrammed their brains around but kept in their human emotions (for reasons not fully clear)) So maybe it was wrong to word my statements like that, but they both were pretty fucked up and Gero had to recreate them from scratch. That's why a lot of the other Androids in earlier DB had unrealistic bodies as they were made to increase their power in fighting. Are they cyborgs because they have organic matter? To me that's debatable, as the skin they wear were manufactured. None of their natural limbs remain, only brains and sex organs. Which is why in series like Ghost in the Shell there is another debate if one can define the Major as a "true" cyborg.

The Japanese dub and manga make this perfectly clear, but the Ocean and Funi dubs have constantly flip flopped. GT does have the error of having Krillin in a Z flashback wish 18 was human, while the Japanese sub I think kept the original "bomb" wish.

Even so, the point is that Gero didnt take into account their emotions. Thats why having a failsafe is completely pointless. They can always be turned back into Z Fighters.
 
trombonista said:
No he didn't, they were humans whom he turned into cyborgs.
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Interestingly enough, #16's appearance was based off Dr. Gero's grandchild who died in a war. His docile disposition was likely implanted by Dr. Gero so #16 would avoid unnecessary harm... Kinda sad.

In addition, #17 became a park ranger, got married, and had kids. He visited Krillin and #18 once, but things were awkward for him since he didn't want to bring up how he settled down.
 
Asuka said:
The only human thing about them is their brains and sex organs. You might be thinking "well its human brains so duh" but remember that the Androids have hive minds and had their previous memories erased. Gero reprogrammed their brains around but kept in their human emotions (for reasons not fully clear)) So maybe it was wrong to word my statements like that, but they both were pretty fucked up and Gero had to recreate them from scratch. That's why a lot of the other Androids in earlier DB had unrealistic bodies as they were made to increase their power in fighting. Are they cyborgs because they have organic matter? To me that's debatable, as the skin they wear were manufactured. None of their natural limbs remain, only brains and sex organs. Which is why in series like Ghost in the Shell there is another debate if one can define the Major as a "true" cyborg.
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Daizenshuu 4 outright stated that 17 and 18 possess little to no mechanical parts and still age. The reason why Gero couldn't control them was specifically because they didn't have chips in their brains to be controlled by him, and his only exit strategy was "do what I say or I shut you off again."
 
I am saying that the Great Ape transformation is the requirement for every Super Saiyan form. They sort of said this in the new movies, and they didn't have to go into a "God Ape" form before obtaining the power of SSG. There was no rule in GT that stated that there needed to be a tail to exclusively go SSJ4, at least not in the Japanese version. If this was the cause, then every single SSJ form would have had to been preceded by an Ape form.

Are you seriously saying that Vegeta had a "need" to go SS when he first transformed? Lol no, he wanted to be better than Goku. He clearly wanted the form to be as powerful if not more than Goku. Maybe Goku and Gohan felt like they needed it, but Vegeta clearly wanted it.

They could still use the Fusion Dance to potentially turn into Vegito (as Gogeta was not established by that point) and they still had the earrings when they were aboug to fight Kid. When they are about to fight Kid Buu, Goku clearly states he wants to kill Buu on his own due to an influx of Saiyan pride running through him. Vegeta admires that and steps out of the way. Again, leaving the spotlight on Goku. Vegeta only destroyed the earring after Goku voiced his pride.

Kid Buu's power level as explained by Toei's Dragon Books had Vegito outclassed. Although I guess you could argue that Super Buu was way weaker than Kid Buu.

DBZ outright states that when Gero found them they were pretty much mangled shells of what they used to be. Unless the books are saying that Gero used organic matter to rebuild them, then I can see your argument. But its apparent that all of their original limbs are gone.
 
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Asuka said:
Are you seriously saying that Vegeta had a "need" to go SS when he first transformed? Lol no, he wanted to be better than Goku. He clearly wanted the form to be as powerful if not more than Goku. Maybe Goku and Gohan felt like they needed it, but Vegeta clearly wanted it.
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Vegeta's pride was a part of who he was. He demanded it of himself that he needed to be a Super Saiyan as Goku was, because his hubris is strong enough that it convinced him even later on in the series when he had chilled out a little bit to literally sell himself to an evil wizard to draw power out of himself and make him stronger than Goku (which he wasn't, but that was the intent). Because that was a big part of his character, that it's his personal struggle that he's not as strong as a lower-class Saiyan.
Asuka said:
They could still use the Fusion Dance to potentially turn into Vegito (as Gogeta was not established by that point).
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They definitely did not have time to have Goku convince Vegeta to do the dance and then have Vegeta be able to properly do it.
Asuka said:
Kid Buu's power level as explained by Toei's Dragon Books had Vegito outclassed. Although I guess you could argue that Super Buu was way weaker than Kid Buu.
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Buu's power has never been given a consistent statement. The Dragon Books stated he was the strongest, but at the same time Goku knew he would not defeat fat Buu no matter what he did, but jumped straight into it with kid Buu, implying that kid Buu was weaker.
Asuka said:
DBZ outright states that when Gero found them they were pretty much mangled shells of what they used to be. Unless the books are saying that Gero used organic matter to rebuild them, then I can see your argument. But its apparent that all of their original limbs are gone.
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In the anime this line might have been added, but I've been thoroughly thumbing through my volume 5 of Vizbig's 3-in-1 DBZ manga and this is never stated nor touched upon. Gero says nothing about their origins the whole time while they're being activated.
 
@Asuka its fine if you like GT. But you have to accept that the majority of Dragonball view it as non-canon due to both it's quality and Toriyama not writing it or being involved save for some character designs.

The ranting is getting to be a bit much.
 
When Goku and Vegeta were fighting in their SSJ2 forms, Goku asks if Vegeta meant to be seduced by Babidi's power and if he really knows what hes saying. Vegeta hesitates and is so full of anger that he doesn't answer. Vegeta didnt sell his soul to a wizard, Babidi just found his way in because Vegeta was frustrated that he was constantly being outclassed. These negative emotions being controlled by Babidi were the cause of Majin Vegeta

SteelPlatedHeart said:
@Asuka its fine if you like GT. But you have to accept that the majority of Dragonball view it as non-canon due to both it's quality and Toriyama not writing it or being involved save for some character designs.

The ranting is getting to be a bit much.
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We are having a back and forth. If he replies, I will too unless there's nothing more to talk about.
 
Asuka said:
When Goku and Vegeta were fighting in their SSJ2 forms, Goku asks if Vegeta meant to be seduced by Babidi's power and if he really knows what hes saying. Vegeta hesitates and is so full of anger that he doesn't answer. Vegeta didnt sell his soul to a wizard, Babidi just found his way in because Vegeta was frustrated that he was constantly being outclassed. These negative emotions being controlled by Babidi were the cause of Majin Vegeta
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This discourse didn't happen in the manga. Chapter 460, Vegeta declares that he decided to let himself fall under Babidi's control, and no dialogue to the end of their skirmish contradicts that it was his decision himself.
 
Watch for a little bit

Like anything else, I guess you have to consider that manga and anime are separate universes. Everybody treats the anime like they are part of the true canon though.

EDIT: Wrong video, I had to find one that didn't cut all the conversations out. This one has some cuts in it too.
 
Asuka said:
Like anything else, I guess you have to consider that manga and anime are separate universes. Everybody treats the anime like they are part of the true canon though.
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You mean like how everyone treats GT as non-canon?
 
Who cares about GT canonity? DBZ itself isn't canon because it's an adaptation. The only canon is the manga and the shit Toriyama did himself but it's still not perfect because it includes stuff like Dragon Ball Minus which is dog shit.
I just take it this way : manga is canon, fuck spin-off shit, Beerus and BoG stuff is okay-ish because it's somewhat interesting and designed by Toriyama. Beerus erases GT continuity so might as well take it as an alternate continuity or just erase it from your memory.

It's not like animated DB is worth much anyway. I don't like being that elitist who calls people secondaries, but the adaptation lost a LOT of the manga's pros. Toriyama is GOOD. Well, he was.

Asuka said:
"Seeing this chance and encouraged by Goku, Gohan unleashes all the rest of his power and power channeled to him by the spirit of Goku[3] into the Father-Son Kamehameha, overpowering the Solar Kamehameha and destroying Super Perfect Cell once and for all."

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Father-Son_Kamehameha

Why would they name the move the "Father-Son Kamehameha" if Goku had nothing to do with its power? Even Xenoverse states that the Father-Son Kamehameha combines both energies of Goku and either Gohan or Goten.
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Pretty sure Goku was in heaven and just motivating Gohan. That was a cool move and all but it's not like Goku's power would really add anything in the mix, Gohan SSJ2 could one-shot him. And he was in normal form at the time. Despite what people usually think, DBZ is pretty down-to-earth when it comes to friendship power-ups. Either you're stronger than your enemy or you're gonna get your ass whopped, no deus ex machina to save you.

Also, DBS 69 was pretty good. They should do more funny stuff like that, because they can't pull off the serious arcs that well. Make comfy shit with the Z-team, that's all I'm asking.
 
In the video games like Raging Blast and Xenoverse, it is plain as day that Goku helps out in the F-S Kamehemeha. His spiritual ki is channeled into Gohan's SSJ2 Kamehameha to create a more powerful beam.

Also, I agree that Super is pretty disappointing so far. The animation is so bad and the fight scenes are lacking in anything suspenseful.
 
Toei's problems with Super are the same problems they've always had, they're completely allergic to spending time and money on something. The last fight between Zamasu and
Vegito
looked great, but because they only want to bring Naotoshi Shida out once every like 30-40 episodes I understand if just one bout with great animation isn't enough to wow/please everyone.
 
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