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Well, Adult swim's funding it, so it's probably going to be even more of a crapshoot given the "quality" of their previous animations like 12oz Mouse.
Anime/Manga - Discuss Japanese cartoons and comics here; NO CULTURE WAR DOOMPOSTING!
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As a massive Dragon Ball fan, I am getting tired of the whole "GT isn't canon!" people who feel that way because they thought the show sucked. The way I see it:
-"Toriyama didn't have anything to do with the series, not canon!"
He designed the Super Saiyan 4 form, penned the entire beginning arc with Dr. Myuu, had the idea of Pan becoming Goku's sidekick, and even supervised the storyboard artists for the first 40 episodes. He might have not been as immersed in the project like in the first two series, but he still was a driving force to get GT moving.
-"There was no manga counterpart, not canon!"
There have been many anime that strayed far away from their manga counterparts and still attained huge popularity, including the first Fullmetal Alchemist series, Elfen Lied, and Evangelion. Staying in tune with the manga was what caused Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z (especially the latter) to have filler episodes and pacing problems, not to mention many inconsistency. It was so bad that Toei made Dragon Ball Kai to get rid of the these issues, basically saying "fuck you filler". Because GT had no manga to be restricted with in terms of deadlines in production, it had more free range in creativity and flexibility with its universe.
-"Toriyama has said GT isn't canon, not canon!"
He has not said this at all and I have google'd thousands of times to see if he actually said it. People claim that the translation in his introduction of the Dragon Box DVD set (http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5411) means that "side-story" indicates "not canon". A side story simply means that it deviates from the main timeline in a particular way, not that the events take place in another universe (like how Rogue One is a Star Wars story that takes place during the rebellion) Until I hear the words "yes these guys are correct" or "yeah GT has nothing to do with the overall story" out of Toriyama's mouth, there's no proof at all.
-"The writing sucks, not canon!"
Obviously a fanboys response to "Wow this series is nothing like Z! It has great character development, episodic monster-of-the-day stories, epic battles, and lame dubbing! Stuff that have all been in the previous 2 series! It sucks!"
Sorry for the autism, just needed to point out how stupid the DB community can be when it comes to this debate.
-"Toriyama didn't have anything to do with the series, not canon!"
He designed the Super Saiyan 4 form, penned the entire beginning arc with Dr. Myuu, had the idea of Pan becoming Goku's sidekick, and even supervised the storyboard artists for the first 40 episodes. He might have not been as immersed in the project like in the first two series, but he still was a driving force to get GT moving.
-"There was no manga counterpart, not canon!"
There have been many anime that strayed far away from their manga counterparts and still attained huge popularity, including the first Fullmetal Alchemist series, Elfen Lied, and Evangelion. Staying in tune with the manga was what caused Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z (especially the latter) to have filler episodes and pacing problems, not to mention many inconsistency. It was so bad that Toei made Dragon Ball Kai to get rid of the these issues, basically saying "fuck you filler". Because GT had no manga to be restricted with in terms of deadlines in production, it had more free range in creativity and flexibility with its universe.
-"Toriyama has said GT isn't canon, not canon!"
He has not said this at all and I have google'd thousands of times to see if he actually said it. People claim that the translation in his introduction of the Dragon Box DVD set (http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5411) means that "side-story" indicates "not canon". A side story simply means that it deviates from the main timeline in a particular way, not that the events take place in another universe (like how Rogue One is a Star Wars story that takes place during the rebellion) Until I hear the words "yes these guys are correct" or "yeah GT has nothing to do with the overall story" out of Toriyama's mouth, there's no proof at all.
-"The writing sucks, not canon!"
Obviously a fanboys response to "Wow this series is nothing like Z! It has great character development, episodic monster-of-the-day stories, epic battles, and lame dubbing! Stuff that have all been in the previous 2 series! It sucks!"
Sorry for the autism, just needed to point out how stupid the DB community can be when it comes to this debate.
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- Apr 1, 2014
This is all incorrect. Toriyama didn't design SSJ4, it was designed by Toei animator Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru who was well-known at the time for being able to mimic Toriyama's style close enough that Toriyama in an interview admitted sometimes he couldn't tell the difference between his and Nakatsuru's sketches for the anime. As for Dr. Myuu, Pan, and the case of the storyboard art, Toriyama didn't contribute anything to the story. In the GT Dragon Book the introductory quote from him straight up says "and so, I left the Dragon Ball anime completely up to the anime staff, story and all. That was Dragon Ball GT." All he designed was most of the main cast's initial appearances.
At this point he doesn't have to because if for no other reason then the presence of old Pilaf at the beginning of GT and the fact that Pilaf and his gang are children in Super right now makes the beginning events of GT impossible.
The writing really, really does suck, to be fair. Super 17 was a waste of time where Goku was completely out of character for most of their fight while he was trying to figure out that he could absorb energy, Baby had really weak characterization and was an idea that sounded better on paper than Toei's shitty execution of him, and the Shadow Dragons were another example of a neat idea that ended up as shit because half of them suck and Omega's fight had uneven pacing I wouldn't see again until the Resurrection F movie (as well as having the most recycled animation out of any fight in DB/Z/GT). The entire first arc with the Black Star Dragon Balls was also almost interesting were it not for the fact that Goku being turned into a child barely nerfed him at all and left Trunks and Pan as fodder for most of the adventure.
EDIT:
12oz Mouse was made specifically because they wanted to see what the absolute cheapest show they could make was. For their original productions they've actually gotten more and more budget for them, I was really surprised when the Squidbillies Halloween special was actually traditionally animated for the most part because it's always been done in Flash.
I have faith in it.
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All of this is incorrect. While it is true that Nakatsuru was a great imitator of Toriyama's style, Toriyama himself designed Super Saiyan 4 in a promotional sketch well before any staff animators were hired for GT. He was also the one that designed the older Pan and many of the planets that they go to to search for the Black Star Dragon Ball. He also supervised the entire project in terms of story, but only oversaw the animation and storyboard process for the first 40 episodes. (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_GT_Perfect_Files)
A lot of people seem to forget that Dragon Ball Super takes place between Majin Buu's defeat and the 28th World Martial Arts Tournament, it doesn't directly take place after the tournament. Remember the ending of DBZ when Pan is 4 years old and Bra is born? DBS takes place in that 10 year gap, so a lot of things can happen between Super and the tournament that can make Pilaf's wish null and for them to return to their normal age. This means that the beginning of DBS has to take place roughly 5-6 years after Buu's defeat, and if DBS itself wants to remain canon it will have to set up Pan as becoming a skillful fighter, enough to match up with Goten like it depicts in the ending of DBZ. The only way that GT cannot be canon at this point is if:
-Pan becomes a Super Saiyan before roughly the age of 4, and even if that happens you could make the argument that GT Pan doesn't go SS either because she hasn't been training or she can't control her ki.
-The show continues on after the 28th tournament, and even then the time gap between DBZ and DBGT is 5 years (10 years in the Funi dub) so they also have a bit of wiggle room for original content to not mess with the canon.
-They do some alternative universe mumbo jumbo which states that GT is part of Universe #_, which some fans are speculating might happen. If this does happen though, it still can be considered canon. We consider Future Trunks and his alternate timeline canon, so why not the same for this scenario?
Nothing in DBS has yet to counteract any of the story in GT, so until it does I'm still in the canon boat.
Do you not remember the cringey Garlic Jr. and Great Saiyaman arcs in DBZ? All of the DB shows have their shit moments. GT I thought had the greatest use of character progression. Vegeta becomes more of a laid back father figure, 18 shows her love greatly for Krillin (even going as far to help Goku kill her brother 17) contrasting her murderous streak in DBZ, and we get to see the family dynamics of the cast played out in a heart warming fashion. The reason why people didn't like the Black Star Dragon Ball Saga is because they liked the long, drawn out battles of Z and they wanted more of it. That is what is ruining the franchise IMO, it's almost as bad as when fans sent death threats to Toriyama because he had the balls to make Gohan the victor over Cell rather than Goku (which lead to the Majin Buu saga). In DB, the story was about Goku becoming stronger and stronger. He still lost to many opponents, including Master Roshi and Tien Shinhan. The point was made by Mr. Popo, there will always be an opponent stronger than Goku so he must not think of himself as the most powerful warrior. Many fans believe that Goku can beat anybody, so now naturally Toriyama goes with the fan's wishes and completely destroys the philosophy DB made (like in Resurrection F when Goku stole Vegeta's killing of Frieza)
Anyways, why does opinion matter to a series canonity? Just because it sucks that means it never occurred in the timeline? I'm sure a lot of Trekkies would feel glad knowing that Enterprise, due to it being a massive pile of shit, is now suddenly not canon to the franchise because of that.
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- Apr 1, 2014
Your link has no actual confirmation of any of your information. The picture you linked by Toriyama was a promotional image he drew for the GT Dragon Box in 2005.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/dragon-book-gt-toriyama-intro/
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/golden_warrior-katsuyoshi_nakatsuru/
"Super Saiyan 4, which appears in the later half of GT, was one of your designs, but I was surprised at how unusual the design was.
'There were a lot of varied opinions about that design. It was my idea to make the body red. “GT” was made as a continuation, and when the producers told me to draw Super Saiyan 4, I went “Ee———-h!?” (strained laughter). Personally, I felt that since they had gone so far as to use stuff like Fusion and merging in the original story, did we really have to continue even further? It was an incredible assignment. Goku’s transformations are an important part of the program, and so I agonized over what would be best to do.' "
Timelines =/= universes in the Dragon Ball continuity. There are exactly 12 universes, and the ones that add up to 13 (i.e. 6 and 7) are the only ones that parallel eachother. GT wouldn't exist in Universe 6 because the Saiyans there are for the most part not a war-faring race like they are in Universe 7, and as for timelines because of just the constant inconsistencies with that you can make the argument in favor of GT but it's just as weak imo as saying that any of the pre-BoG movies could've happened.
No, the biggest fault with the Black Star Dragon Ball saga is because they attempted to cash in on the original Dragon Ball formula and just flubbed it at every turn. No part of this entire arc is interesting or fun to watch because most of it is just Goku breezing through planets while Pan screams "GRANDPA" and Trunks just gets shit on.
Garlic Junior was completely filler and most of the Great Saiyaman arc is filler. Toei has done great filler but those are also both examples of terrible filler.
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- Feb 15, 2015
I thought everybody knew that it was perfectly fine to ignore everything after the original Dragon Ball.
Did you even watch Dragon Ball Z?
-Frieza Saga: Defeats everybody except Goku. Goku would have gotten his ass kicked if Krillin didn't explode and made him lose himself to the Super Saiyan rage. Gohan, Vegeta, and Krillin stand helpless. Goku breezes through Snake Way with almost no challenge.
-Cell Saga: Defeats everybody except Gohan, but Goku uses his spiritual energy to help Gohan use the Father-Son Kamehameha. If Goku was still immobilized, Gohan would have lost.
-Buu Saga: Defeats everybody, even the mighty Vegito (a fusion between two very powerful Saiyans). It was Goku's BASE FORM SPIRIT BOMB that eventually killed him.
-Battle of Gods: Beerus defeats everybody, even when Vegeta was even more powerful than Goku after striking HIS BULMA!!!!!! It was Goku that got the glory for standing up to Beerus and obtaining SSG form.
-Resurrection F: Vegeta was about to kill Frieza, then the whole time travel bullshit happens where Goku gets the final kill instead.
It's safe to assume that Goku gets all the attention in DBZ as well, which is one of the problems of the franchise. I know he's a main character, but why expand the character list to include more fighters if you're only going to give the glory to one person? Vegeta could have easily gotten a kill in Resurrection F, what was the point of having Goku get the kill? HE was the one who messed up in the first place, he should be punished for it.
Your opinion. My point is this: why does this all matter in terms of the canon debate? Just because you think it sucks that means it couldn't have happened?
You didn't address the fact that Super takes place in between Buu and the 28th tournament. Until there is an episode that does anything to contradict the points I listed above, you can't automatically mark off GT as not canon. That would mean that the final few episodes of DBZ can't be considered canon either, which is ironic considering a lot of DB idiots think Uub is a GT creation.
I did like Ghost Nappa a lot, I don't know why but it was hilarious.
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- Dec 3, 2013
In regards to TFS and GT...
In response to the video:
-I agree with the fact that it was a poor decision to write Goku back as a child, and that it was clearly obvious that Toei did that to get a feel of nostalgia for old fans of the original series who tuned out DBZ. However, I can't agree with the whole "he has a brain of an adult". Goku may have attained knowledge throughout the years, but he's very much still a happy-go-lucky dimwit who just happens to be a martial artist savant. Chi Chi even refers to him at one point as "her first child". Whether it's because he suffered brain damage when he fell from from the cliff, I don't know. But other than that, I think this guy had a great point and I feel that if Goku was an adult for the first few episodes the series would have been taken slightly more seriously.
-The Super 17 Saga was way too short I agree, but I thought there was some pretty awesome scenes including the one where 187protects Maron from 18's wrath. This is why I like GT, it shows 18 being a loving wife and protective mother; another great growth of character. Once a murderous heartless individual to now one of noble intentions. The whole thing about the failsafe is too complex for Dragon Ball, plus it wouldn't make any sense. Why would Gero implant both a failsafe AND internal bombs within them? If they got reset, that means they could potentially be persuaded by the Z Fighters again to fight on their side. Gero implanted them with human emotions so they obviously have the ability to face morality. If that happened, Gero would have to use the bombs anyways and nothing would have been accomplished.
-Complaining about side characters not getting screentime: I agree that more of Dragon Ball's supporting cast should get more attention, but this didn't start in GT. Ever since the Frieza Saga, anybody who is not of Saiyan blood has pretty much fell to the wayside. If it's not Goku, it's Vegeta. If not Vegeta, Gohan. If not Gohan, Goten and Trunks. The human characters don't put up much of a struggle. Even Toriyama at one point said that he forgot about a very prominent character from DB, Launch, who only showed up in the Saiyan Saga in DBZ. So again, this problem has existed way before GT was conceived but I agree it definitely needs to be fixed and GT could have had made more of an effort to do that. Plus Vegeta having a mustache was a joke, he eventually shaved it off after Bra told him he looked like a geek.
-Obviously this guy grew up watching Dragon Ball Z more than the original Dragon Ball, the entire point of the first 16 episodes was to pay homage to the original series. That's how it operated, it had episodic "monster-of-the-day" characters that Goku had to take on and it was still entertaining to see because it showed variety of species and skill level unlike having to sit through 60 episodes while two guys power up and delivering fast blows here and there. Goku took on monsters like the demon that tried to kidnap Bulma very early on, Master Carrot, the Bear Thief, etc. I honestly don't understand why it's such a complaint, maybe it's because the writing is slightly more cheesy?
-Agree with the Dragon Radar and King Kai bit
-I agree with the fact that it was a poor decision to write Goku back as a child, and that it was clearly obvious that Toei did that to get a feel of nostalgia for old fans of the original series who tuned out DBZ. However, I can't agree with the whole "he has a brain of an adult". Goku may have attained knowledge throughout the years, but he's very much still a happy-go-lucky dimwit who just happens to be a martial artist savant. Chi Chi even refers to him at one point as "her first child". Whether it's because he suffered brain damage when he fell from from the cliff, I don't know. But other than that, I think this guy had a great point and I feel that if Goku was an adult for the first few episodes the series would have been taken slightly more seriously.
-The Super 17 Saga was way too short I agree, but I thought there was some pretty awesome scenes including the one where 187protects Maron from 18's wrath. This is why I like GT, it shows 18 being a loving wife and protective mother; another great growth of character. Once a murderous heartless individual to now one of noble intentions. The whole thing about the failsafe is too complex for Dragon Ball, plus it wouldn't make any sense. Why would Gero implant both a failsafe AND internal bombs within them? If they got reset, that means they could potentially be persuaded by the Z Fighters again to fight on their side. Gero implanted them with human emotions so they obviously have the ability to face morality. If that happened, Gero would have to use the bombs anyways and nothing would have been accomplished.
-Complaining about side characters not getting screentime: I agree that more of Dragon Ball's supporting cast should get more attention, but this didn't start in GT. Ever since the Frieza Saga, anybody who is not of Saiyan blood has pretty much fell to the wayside. If it's not Goku, it's Vegeta. If not Vegeta, Gohan. If not Gohan, Goten and Trunks. The human characters don't put up much of a struggle. Even Toriyama at one point said that he forgot about a very prominent character from DB, Launch, who only showed up in the Saiyan Saga in DBZ. So again, this problem has existed way before GT was conceived but I agree it definitely needs to be fixed and GT could have had made more of an effort to do that. Plus Vegeta having a mustache was a joke, he eventually shaved it off after Bra told him he looked like a geek.
-Obviously this guy grew up watching Dragon Ball Z more than the original Dragon Ball, the entire point of the first 16 episodes was to pay homage to the original series. That's how it operated, it had episodic "monster-of-the-day" characters that Goku had to take on and it was still entertaining to see because it showed variety of species and skill level unlike having to sit through 60 episodes while two guys power up and delivering fast blows here and there. Goku took on monsters like the demon that tried to kidnap Bulma very early on, Master Carrot, the Bear Thief, etc. I honestly don't understand why it's such a complaint, maybe it's because the writing is slightly more cheesy?
-Agree with the Dragon Radar and King Kai bit
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- Feb 15, 2015
Perhaps it's because they're trying to pay homage to the original Dragon Ball, which in the chronology of Toriyama's work is caught between the pure comedy of Dr. Slump and, well, Dragon Ball Z. It's sort of a transition work between the two.
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- Feb 15, 2015
Try getting these people to watch Dr. Slump, then. It's Toriyama's best work and yet it was never even dubbed (well, we at least got the manga). Dragon Ball Z can have God knows how many dubs, but for some reason Dr. Slump doesn't even merit a full dub. The world is so unfair sometimes.
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- Jan 18, 2016
They're doing us a service. Fuck dubs. The manga is better anyway.
I agree actually. Dr. Slump's offbeat humor doesn't translate well over on television, and it was weird how Toriyama tried to make it part of the Dragon Ball universe.
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- Dec 3, 2013
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My point about it being contrived when they did what I pointed out with the "Goku breezing through planets" thing is that the whole point of giving the main characters a reason to go out into space and explore would be to, y'know, enjoy the exploration everywhere. Goku breezed through Snake Way with no challenge because there was no express challenge to Snake Way other than running the full 1,000,000 kilometers from start to finish and not falling off into Hell. Goku didn't contribute energy to Gohan's Kamehameha, he just encouraged him to put everything he had into one moment when Cell wasn't paying attention. As for Buu, Vegito was toying with him the whole time so he could goad him into absorbing him and have the chance to cut everyone else out from him. How are you going to ask me if I even watched DBZ when you left out all of these important details? Especially considering that the Spirit Bomb was powered by Earth, Other World, and a hell of a lot more sources of energy than the one in the Frieza saga did.
I'll definitely agree on Resurrection F, that movie was just complete shit. I remember walking out of the theater actually disappointed, while in BoG I didn't mind that Vegeta got shafted because it was to pave the way to new Dragon Ball material.
Right, but there's also inconsistencies in GT that prevent it from being canon. It counts the movie villains as part of the series (because when Hell breaks loose many villains from both the original series and movies are shown running amok), it completely throws the lore on its head (Vegeta gaining the Blutz waves and turning into a Golden Great Ape made no sense for him having no tail because it was explicitly stated before that the glands necessary to transform into a Great Ape are only present in the tail), and the character's feats themselves are so inconsistent. We have Goku withstanding Nuova Shenron whose as hot as the sun, then at the same time he expressed shock and surprise at Omega for blowing up a single city, gets cut by glass, and two SSJ4s struggle to hold up a single building.
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- Dec 3, 2013
So in regards to official proof of Panty and Stocking Season 2....
Doesn't confirm it, but it does explain where the rumors came from.
Doesn't confirm it, but it does explain where the rumors came from.