Against New Games & The Extortion Industry

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CrunkLord420

not a financial adviser
Forum Staff
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Joined
Jul 22, 2017
For years I've not been interested in AAA, or most new games. Nearly everything I enjoy or look forward to is passion-fueled small team or solo dev with questionable profitability. Some of my favorite games are straight up open source and/or freeware. I feel this dissatisfaction is a growing sentiment among video game consumers. I write this to justify dumping these links and evangelize the sentiments within. Capitalism requires informed and logical consumers to function correctly.

https://extortionindustry.org/appendix.html
https://extortionindustry.org/index.html
https://extortionindustry.org/harmful_practices.html
https://extortionindustry.org/extortion.html
 
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I find myself largely in agreement but who at the industry's heights is going to listen to this?
 
It's targeted at consumers and indie devs. The AAA publishers are dinosaurs hooking teenagers on gambling mechanics for cosmetic items without value, they're not going to stop until consumers shift.
You're just talking about Fortnite and Counter Strike since those are the whale games among whales games.

I dunno how you would have valve release it's grip on it They own the PC market in whole.

If you also mean Mobile games, they are just a huge slum town where there's zero quality control.
 
It's targeted at consumers and indie devs. The AAA publishers are dinosaurs hooking teenagers on gambling mechanics for cosmetic items without value, they're not going to stop until consumers shift.
Good luck to them spreading the message. Even by actively sharing it I'm sure a majority of people who click that link won't get past the preamble. Communities I've been a part of share most if not all the sentiments they've expressed but I don't think the average video game consumer really gives a damn as long as they see the yearly release of their favorite franchise.
 
Well how this was dealt with in the past was that burnout occurred. it happened with MMOs and MOBAs, both these genres fell into obscurity only to have battle Royale games take the reigns.
 
While I agree with some of the sentiment, it's making a big deal when there's an easy solution:Don't buy the game
I have not bought a Ubsisoft game since Rayman origins and legends, it doesn't seem to stem the tide.
 
All new games are either Skinner boxes meant to keep you addicted or constantly updated to force you to re-learn useless skills just to continue to enjoy what you paid for. Unless you enjoy being constantly dicked around, there is no reason to purchase modern games.

Edit: on the subject of titles created by two guys in a garage somewhere there is less of a push to shovel this garbage into games, because there's much less of a negative feedback loop of needing to keep a bloated, useless layer of middle-management and outside investors flush with cash by extracting it from current players. Look at studios like Running With Scissors for example - they are able to continue updating a decade-old title like Postal 2 because it is a side gig for a bunch of dudes that just wanted to make a game. They don't need to shove DLC in their players' faces because they run lean, and they don't expend manpower just to keep some Excel-wielding fuckhead off their asses asking for the next deliverable while guzzling down the newest Agile manifesto.
 
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Something something society's current state affects our lives down to lifestyles and our survival. As much as I hate skinner boxes and heavily disguised slot machines, until the recession is done and over with, I don't think we're going to be playing legitimately made video games with a lot of free time and money to spare anytime soon. Making actually good games doesn't just require money and the balls of sticking your neck out at risk of fucking up, but being of such character that you are able to be efficient, hardworking, persistent, imaginative, and creative at the same time. A lot of those people are figuring out their own shit at the moment or are not of those kinds of people in game development, as I have experienced.
 
There's already plenty of people against modern games and their game design, and they respond simply by refusing to play new games and playing ROMs of classics instead.

I think a better reaction to modern gaming would be for more people to be game developers, even if as a hobby such as with the AGDG threads.
 
Stunning and brave!
Edit: Wow, just that read that verbal diarrhea and its fucking hilarious. I swear, gamers are some of the most bitchy drama queens that just love gagging on their own cock when it comes to this type of shit. Not that I disagree with whats being said just god damn calm down bitch.
 
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They had me until their "real value for games is $0 page". Everything else makes sense, games with centralized servers is bad (people still play Doom II over a quarter century later!), games now perform like garbage, some games are revokable, spyware/rootkits, etc. That last page though, they completely lost the plot.
 
That last one, "extortion", starts from false economic premises and then jerks itself off over it for the rest of the essay. It's like someone read Das Kapital without realizing the labor theory of value was garbage, then can't understand why everyone gets so down on communism.

This one is getting a harshly detailed breakdown, because it's just that stupid.

Authoring a thing does not give anyone a right to extortion. It also doesn't entitle anyone to profit. Profit is made by providing a good or service with real value to consumers, which is determined by supplying a thing with unmet demand.

No. Profit is made by selling a good for higher than its cost. The underlying value has no bearing on the ability to profit, and as mentioned above, this is the fundamental flaw that Marx could never get over.

The price paid is derived from that value provided.

Nope. Marx's mistake again, with a twist based on obsolete utility calculations. The entire field of price theory sprang up because people keep making this mistake.

The price reflects a relationship between supply and demand, not supply and value. Demand does not equal value, even though they have a relationship.

By nature of information's reproducibility, any software released into the public can be expected to be shared freely and widely. In other words, information is a product with infinite supply.

First rule of hardcore systems analysis: if someone tells you something is infinite, laugh in their face.

I'll skip an autistic definition of "information", which itself blows holes in this argument, to keep things focused on software games. The essay is saying that you can reproduce a set of code an infinite number of times. This is true, but that reproduction is not cost-free; some resources are used in doing it. The author is just accustomed to treat those resources as trivial, which is fine for every day life, but is not fine for economic theory; they must be accounted for.

Say the game "Final Fantasy 7" exists. I know it exists, the author announced it. Where does it exist?

The minute it is finished being authored, it exists as a long string of digits occupying physical media somewhere. That media might be a "gold disc" master CD, or a hard drive in a server. The supply for the game is exactly 1 unit: the physical digits on a physical medium.

How do I acquire the product?

That string of digits must be reproduced, taking up space on other media. The old school way was to copy that string onto other discs and sell the discs. The new way is to open up remote access to the server, and let you copy the string to your local hard drive. But both ways consume resources.

Even when you download it, you are consuming bandwidth from the server owner and from your own ISP, and storing a copy on your limited physical hard drive. If you think that software is "infinite", try downloading it an infinite number of times and see how long it takes until you smack into a limitation, either from your HDD or your ISP.

"But it's being shared and pirated after it's reproduced once!" Then you are consuming resources from the pirate site. Try downloading from them an infinite number of times, see what happens to the "infinite" availability.

Limits exist. Just because you (currently) enjoy a surplus of resources, doesn't meant you can't hit the limit. And you can't take the surplus for granted when making sweeping, total claims.

Regardless of how much demand is present, a product with infinite supply does not have real value.

  1. The product doesn't have infinite supply, even if it could theoretically be infinite.
  2. An infinite product still has value even if it doesn't command a price.

What's the value of the air you breathe, which no one is currently charging you for? Air isn't technically infinite either, but you enjoy a surplus of it. If someone cut off your air supply, within 10 seconds you'd consciously recognize the hidden value you've always placed on air. Within 20 seconds, you'd discover you're willing to pay an infinitely high price for that infinite product.

(You also contradict your earlier claim that "the price paid is derived from that value provided". If you pay $0 for your infinitely supplied game via piracy, do you derive 0 value from it? Why would you pirate it in the first place if the real value was 0? Either the software/information has value or it doesn't, and if it has value while still being infinitely supplied, then every line you've written is nonsensical.)

Instead of competing fairly in the free market by finding a way to provide value for the customer, the industry just resorted to extortion by exploiting a loophole in copyright law. In this way they could artificially set the price to whatever they want, and threaten anyone who attempts to obtain it for its real value of $0.

Try this experiment at home.
  1. Hook up a Playstation to your TV.
  2. Print out the source code to Final Fantasy 7.
  3. Insert the 5-inch thick binder of source code into the disc slot.
  4. Enjoy the game.
Get stuck around step 3? Most people do. If only you had someone to package the information into a usable format for you. I wonder how much you'd pay for that service?

Oh, but you're PC master race. I can tell by your disdain for physical media. You don't need any help from the publishers to run a game, you'll download it and do it yourself!

Got your compiler ready? Have enough juice to re-render each frame of the cutscenes to be compatible for your graphics chip? Ready to get your hands dirty with some good old-fashioned VM console commands? No? Ah, you expect the information to be pre-packaged, already compiled, single-click to install, automagically recognizing your computer setup and adjusting to your graphics card. That sounds like a valuable service to me.

(And no, Mr I'm A Linux User, you aren't a super l33t hax0r willing to spend 20 hours of your weekend reconfiguring packages and re-compiling just to swing a buster sword in 1080p. At some point you'll crack open your wallet and just play it on Wine.)

Haha, Harvey, you're being facetious. Even the ready-to-install binary is available and infinite! Others have cracked it, taken it from its native distribution, re-packaged it, and are hosting it at the cost of their own bandwidth! I shall turn on AdBlock so even the pirates don't get paid for their valuable services, and acquire this "free" product!

What's that? PirateBay is down again, your ISP restricted your torrenting to 350kb/sec, and the package you downloaded from FranksFilthyWarez had a trojan rootkit in it? That doesn't sound like free infinite rainbows. Sounds like you're about to trade your time and security to avoid paying money for a guaranteed product install.

And hey, if your time is that worthless, go right ahead. But if you're going to spout off about economics, you are required to acknowledge that tradeoff. You spent your time, you acquired the software at a cost, even if the price wasn't paid in dollars. You don't get to hand-wave that away in a spew of Marxist bullshit.

It should go without saying but a market whose entire provided value relies on state intervention is not natural.

Considering you have no idea what "value" means, your attempt at moral-fagging is just laughable.

The true value lies in the game experience. Part of the total value is determined by how easy it is to get that experience. Do you merely need to download it? Do you need to download and pay? Walk into a store, pick up a disc, and pay? Etc. Different people value each of those routes at different levels; stack that on top of the underlying game experience, and you find their demand for the game.

The price is a function of the public's demand for any of those services against how easy it is for the publisher to supply that service. Paying the price is a transaction, i.e. a contract, and the state only gets involved in enforcing that contract.

Even at the most trivial level, you are paying resources. You may jump through hoops and break some laws to avoid paying it out in dollars, but someone, somewhere is providing you a valuable service, whether publisher or pirate site. Copying software is not frictionless duplication of infinite goods.

Videogames will continue to exist even if the state-backed extortion racket suddenly ended, because in a free market, if there's demand for a thing, a way to produce it will always be found.

Bullshit. It doesn't matter how much demand there is for a thing, producers will only produce it if they can turn a profit.

The sentiment quoted above is the hallmark of socialist planners everywhere, who think that producers are magical underworld elves who just mysteriously create wealth out of thin air. If everyone who demanded a game pirated it and profits dropped to 0, the producer would take that as a signal and produce no more games. Perhaps you could get enough dupes to keep producing games into 0-profit environment, but not for long. Eventually, the producers run out of resources, the market runs out of producers, and the games stop coming, no matter how much demand or value the pirates put on them.

Because here's where idealists of every ideology always forget the difference between free markets and capitalism. Free markets mean you can trade whatever you want, with whoever you want. It's the default mode of human existence, and a great way to discover supply/demand/prices. But it's not a mechanism for bringing new goods to market. It is not a guarantee of either supply or demand for anything.

Capitalism is a way of investing stored wealth (capital) into the production process. It lets you bring products to market that don't have an established demand, and the storage of capital provides a buffer for producers who realize insufficient profit on any single offering. Capital paves the way for entrepreneurship, and capitalism ultimately provides more goods and opportunities for value to both producers and consumers. But capitalism doesn't remove resource constraints; it merely shifts things to smooth usage out over time.

...but what is certain is models will be developed to meet all the demand that exists :story:

The free market is not the magical cargo fairy that delivers whatever you want if you just wish for it hard enough. Profit moves the Invisible Hand; not value, not technology, and not demand.

"Let's wreck everything with no plan for the future and only rhetorical assurances that a better way is out there ready to emerge."

Go walk out into the ocean, comrade. When you're flailing at the bottom of the sea, I am certain air will be provided to meet all the demand that exists in your lungs.

TL;DR Resources aren't infinite. If you can't get the economics right, you can't get the morality right either.

I didn't expect to spend 3 hours tonight regurgitating Microeconomics 201, but hey, who could predict ancaps applying a 14th century understanding of utility to a Marxist analysis of video games? 2020 is a banner year for fucking stupid ideas.
 
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Saw this in the Godot documentation today and seemed related https://docs.godotengine.org/en/stable/tutorials/io/encrypting_save_games.html

Encrypting save games
Why?
Because the world today is not the world of yesterday. A capitalist oligarchy runs the world and forces us to consume in order to keep the gears of this rotten society on track. As such, the biggest market for video game consumption today is the mobile one. It is a market of poor souls forced to compulsively consume digital content in order to forget the misery of their everyday life, commute, or just any other brief free moment they have that they are not using to produce goods or services for the ruling class. These individuals need to keep focusing on their video games (because not doing so will fill them with tremendous existential angst), so they go as far as spending money on them to extend their experience, and their preferred way of doing so is through in-app purchases and virtual currency.

But what if someone were to find a way to edit the saved games and assign the items and currency without effort? That would be terrible, because it would help players consume the content much faster, and therefore run out of it sooner than expected. If that happens, they will have nothing that avoids them to think, and the tremendous agony of realizing their own irrelevance would again take over their life.

No, we definitely do not want that to happen, so let’s see how to encrypt savegames and protect the world order.
 
And while I also hate mictotransactions, it's kind of amusing on how that rhetoric ignores what happens when you give people everything at once.

That last one, "extortion", starts from false economic premises and then jerks itself off over it for the rest of the essay. It's like someone read Das Kapital without realizing the labor theory of value was garbage, then can't understand why everyone gets so down on communism.

This one is getting a harshly detailed breakdown, because it's just that stupid.

No. Profit is made by selling a good for higher than its cost. The underlying value has no bearing on the ability to profit, and as mentioned above, this is the fundamental flaw that Marx could never get over.



Nope. Marx's mistake again, with a twist based on obsolete utility calculations. The entire field of price theory sprang up because people keep making this mistake.

The price reflects a relationship between supply and demand, not supply and value. Demand does not equal value, even though they have a relationship.



First rule of hardcore systems analysis: if someone tells you something is infinite, laugh in their face.

I'll skip an autistic definition of "information", which itself blows holes in this argument, to keep things focused on software games. The essay is saying that you can reproduce a set of code an infinite number of times. This is true, but that reproduction is not cost-free; some resources are used in doing it. The author is just accustomed to treat those resources as trivial, which is fine for every day life, but is not fine for economic theory; they must be accounted for.

Say the game "Final Fantasy 7" exists. I know it exists, the author announced it. Where does it exist?

The minute it is finished being authored, it exists as a long string of digits occupying physical media somewhere. That media might be a "gold disc" master CD, or a hard drive in a server. The supply for the game is exactly 1 unit: the physical digits on a physical medium.

How do I acquire the product?

That string of digits must be reproduced, taking up space on other media. The old school way was to copy that string onto other discs and sell the discs. The new way is to open up remote access to the server, and let you copy the string to your local hard drive. But both ways consume resources.

Even when you download it, you are consuming bandwidth from the server owner and from your own ISP, and storing a copy on your limited physical hard drive. If you think that software is "infinite", try downloading it an infinite number of times and see how long it takes until you smack into a limitation, either from your HDD or your ISP.

"But it's being shared and pirated after it's reproduced once!" Then you are consuming resources from the pirate site. Try downloading from them an infinite number of times, see what happens to the "infinite" availability.

Limits exist. Just because you (currently) enjoy a surplus of resources, doesn't meant you can't hit the limit. And you can't take the surplus for granted when making sweeping, total claims.



  1. The product doesn't have infinite supply, even if it could theoretically be infinite.
  2. An infinite product still has value even if it doesn't command a price.

What's the value of the air you breathe, which no one is currently charging you for? Air isn't technically infinite either, but you enjoy a surplus of it. If someone cut off your air supply, within 10 seconds you'd consciously recognize the hidden value you've always placed on air. Within 20 seconds, you'd discover you're willing to pay an infinitely high price for that infinite product.

(You also contradict your earlier claim that "the price paid is derived from that value provided". If you pay $0 for your infinitely supplied game via piracy, do you derive 0 value from it? Why would you pirate it in the first place if the real value was 0? Either the software/information has value or it doesn't, and if it has value while still being infinitely supplied, then every line you've written is nonsensical.)



Try this experiment at home.
  1. Hook up a Playstation to your TV.
  2. Print out the source code to Final Fantasy 7.
  3. Insert the 5-inch thick binder of source code into the disc slot.
  4. Enjoy the game.
Get stuck around step 3? Most people do. If only you had someone to package the information into a usable format for you. I wonder how much you'd pay for that service?

Oh, but you're PC master race. I can tell by your disdain for physical media. You don't need any help from the publishers to run a game, you'll download it and do it yourself!

Got your compiler ready? Have enough juice to re-render each frame of the cutscenes to be compatible for your graphics chip? Ready to get your hands dirty with some good old-fashioned VM console commands? No? Ah, you expect the information to be pre-packaged, already compiled, single-click to install, automagically recognizing your computer setup and adjusting to your graphics card. That sounds like a valuable service to me.

(And no, Mr I'm A Linux User, you aren't a super l33t hax0r willing to spend 20 hours of your weekend reconfiguring packages and re-compiling just to swing a buster sword in 1080p. At some point you'll crack open your wallet and just play it on Wine.)

Haha, Harvey, you're being facetious. Even the ready-to-install binary is available and infinite! Others have cracked it, taken it from its native distribution, re-packaged it, and are hosting it at the cost of their own bandwidth! I shall turn on AdBlock so even the pirates don't get paid for their valuable services, and acquire this "free" product!

What's that? PirateBay is down again, your ISP restricted your torrenting to 350kb/sec, and the package you downloaded from FranksFilthyWarez had a trojan rootkit in it? That doesn't sound like free infinite rainbows. Sounds like you're about to trade your time and security to avoid paying money for a guaranteed product install.

And hey, if your time is that worthless, go right ahead. But if you're going to spout off about economics, you are required to acknowledge that tradeoff. You spent your time, you acquired the software at a cost, even if the price wasn't paid in dollars. You don't get to hand-wave that away in a spew of Marxist bullshit.



Considering you have no idea what "value" means, your attempt at moral-fagging is just laughable.

The true value lies in the game experience. Part of the total value is determined by how easy it is to get that experience. Do you merely need to download it? Do you need to download and pay? Walk into a store, pick up a disc, and pay? Etc. Different people value each of those routes at different levels; stack that on top of the underlying game experience, and you find their demand for the game.

The price is a function of the public's demand for any of those services against how easy it is for the publisher to supply that service. Paying the price is a transaction, i.e. a contract, and the state only gets involved in enforcing that contract.

Even at the most trivial level, you are paying resources. You may jump through hoops and break some laws to avoid paying it out in dollars, but someone, somewhere is providing you a valuable service, whether publisher or pirate site. Copying software is not frictionless duplication of infinite goods.



Bullshit. It doesn't matter how much demand there is for a thing, producers will only produce it if they can turn a profit.

The sentiment quoted above is the hallmark of socialist planners everywhere, who think that producers are magical underworld elves who just mysteriously create wealth out of thin air. If everyone who demanded a game pirated it and profits dropped to 0, the producer would take that as a signal and produce no more games. Perhaps you could get enough dupes to keep producing games into 0-profit environment, but not for long. Eventually, the producers run out of resources, the market runs out of producers, and the games stop coming, no matter how much demand or value the pirates put on them.

Because here's where idealists of every ideology always forget the difference between free markets and capitalism. Free markets mean you can trade whatever you want, with whoever you want. It's the default mode of human existence, and a great way to discover supply/demand/prices. But it's not a mechanism for bringing new goods to market. It is not a guarantee of either supply or demand for anything.

Capitalism is a way of investing stored wealth (capital) into the production process. It lets you bring products to market that don't have an established demand, and the storage of capital provides a buffer for producers who realize insufficient profit on any single offering. Capital paves the way for entrepreneurship, and capitalism ultimately provides more goods and opportunities for value to both producers and consumers. But capitalism doesn't remove resource constraints; it merely shifts things to smooth usage out over time.



The free market is not the magical cargo fairy that delivers whatever you want if you just wish for it hard enough. Profit moves the Invisible Hand; not value, not technology, and not demand.

"Let's wreck everything with no plan for the future and only rhetorical assurances that a better way is out there ready to emerge."

Go walk out into the ocean, comrade. When you're flailing at the bottom of the sea, I am certain air will be provided to meet all the demand that exists in your lungs.

TL;DR Resources aren't infinite. If you can't get the economics right, you can't get the morality right either.

I didn't expect to spend 3 hours tonight regurgitating Microeconomics 201, but hey, who could predict ancaps applying a 14th century understanding of utility to a Marxist analysis of video games? 2020 is a banner year for fucking stupid ideas.
I knew that this was full of shit when I saw it, but it's essentially common knowledge that commies are terrible with economic planning. Just never expected that it would be this misguided.

I would Semper Fi this if I could.
 
I am somewhat of mixed feeling about a lot of this stuff - sports games is where I notice it a lot.

Look at the NBA2K games as an example: On the one hand, there’s pay to upgrade your player and pay for in-game customization, and in-game ads (including career mode requiring you to relate talking points about Beats and Gatorade during press conferences), AND blind card packs... it’s disgusting. Not to mention that the game feels like it intentionally gimps teammates during career mode, because things like assists earn you credits.

on the other hand, the game has so many modes between a player and manager career, and an online manager career and 3 different styles of franchise mode and the MyTeam mode and everything else, that‘s clearly only feasible because they’re budgeting for the game expecting people to pay them a gajillionty dollars, and I get to benefit from other people’s largesse.

I think my view tends to come back to “if a game feels like a diminished experience without the DLC/micro transactions then it’s bad.” Like extra DOA costumes - fun but not needed. SFV wanting you to buy characters? Bad.

also, the part of the manifesto about Early Access and crowdfunding reminds me of all the people who hate Doublefine. There’s absolutely been people who’ve abused crowdfunding and Early Access. But there’s also been plenty of others that have delivered - and some where the buyers got what they were promised and more and they were still unsatisfied because they didn’t get the one thing they personally wanted. like, caveat emptor.

my only feeling about Early Access is that it should last 6-12 months. If you need more than a year to finish it, it’s not ready to be shown... and you’re hurting yourself too by releasing that soon.
 
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