Back 4 Blood - Left 4 Dead's spiritual successor

[Liquid Marlon]

One of the best things about Left 4 Dead 2 was it's meme mods, they ended up being so beneficial for the game that there are people who only know about/like the meme mods and not the game itself.

And I want to remind everyone that Back 4 Blood (which won't have Steam Workshop support) has an enemy named "The Ogre" which is the mediocre "successor" to L4D's Tank.

 

[Articles and Nudes]

I havent played L4D for years, but any mention of tanks in any context immediately sets off that theme in my head. Very few enemies have left such an impression.

 

[Liquid Marlon]

I havent played L4D for years, but any mention of tanks in any context immediately sets off that theme in my head. Very few enemies have left such an impression.

I'm so sorry man.

 

[SlipNHonk]

Unpopular opinion but L4D2 should have been a content update for the original L4D instead of Valve betraying their promise and releasing the sequel.

Also you mention The Last Stand update yet it caused an uproar in the community to the point of scaring the modder responsible for the update.

They had no choice. Apparently they made L4D2 to secure the IP after Turtle Rock split off.

TLS did a bunch of dumb shit nobody asked for. Some of it was based off a list of demands Valve made if they wanted to release the update in the first place. Updates don't always equal 'good' and what it added was superficial at most. There is an insane amount of custom campaigns out there of better quality than the 2 part campaign of The Last Stand. Just go to workshop and play a few yourself. Adding the CSS weapons officially - that were only accessible in unofficial servers or campaigns prior - was a stupid idea. Many of them aren't as solid as the mainstay of L4D2 weapons and it's always irritating when a bolt action AWP is in the place of what could have been the M16, AK47, or the semi-automatic sniper rifle. Something like the CSS knife feels out of place and the two new official weapons added are wonky at best with their hit detection. Screwing up the voice radial was extremely petty for VS and neutering it in coop was even dumber. Including many of the cut voicelines (Valve cut them in development for a reason) feel off or not in tone with the official lines.

But my biggest issue was how it broke a lot of custom plugins/campaigns. You're talking about a game that hasn't had a major update in about 8 years, so the community nestled in on the fact that the game will be consistently stable without any future incidents that might break mods. Every 4-6 weeks, a group I'm in plays a slew of custom campaigns we find on workshop/gamemaps on Expert on Saturday night. It's modified in a way that the more players in the game (we have around 16 at peak), the more special infected spawn, the larger the Tanks HP is, and the bigger the horde count is. Makes shit challenging regardless of player count. Plus everyone is given a medkit at spawnroom, and few other fun plugins like Character Select Menu (think Hank Hill, Moon Man, Carl from ATHF ect).

Well the update and its minor 'patches' since then fucked it up. The recent surprise big 'patch' for TLS (https://left4dead.fandom.com/wiki/Updates_(Left_4_Dead_2)#June_15.2C_2021_.282.2.1.3.29) caused most of the plugins to fail, again. We had to postpone our l4d2 event by a week, again. Thankfully, we are grateful we have somebody who knows how to code and patch up plugins (some are still not functioning properly), but that can't be said for other communities utilizing these old ass plugins that are no longer supported by the original authors. It's a pain in the ass if nothing else. Ultimately this is the core audience who still plays L4D2 to this day, not the people who jump on for a weekend after not playing it for 6-10 years.

 

[Overcast]

I havent played L4D for years, but any mention of tanks in any context immediately sets off that theme in my head. Very few enemies have left such an impression.

I still remember the first time playing L4D, seeing the Tank in the intro cutscene and thinking "Wonder if that will be a mid or end boss?" only to find out while playing that it's something that can and will pop up at almost any time during the game.

Really, the whole concept of the AI Director and having stuff appear randomly really helped make the games feel unique and fresh even years after the games have been released.

SlipNHonk said:
They had no choice. Apparently they made L4D2 to secure the IP after Turtle Rock split off.

TLS did a bunch of dumb shit nobody asked for. Some of it was based off a list of demands Valve made if they wanted to release the update in the first place. Updates don't always equal 'good' and what it added was superficial at most. There is an insane amount of custom campaigns out there of better quality than the 2 part campaign of The Last Stand. Just go to workshop and play a few yourself. Adding the CSS weapons officially - that were only accessible in unofficial servers or campaigns prior - was a stupid idea. Many of them aren't as solid as the mainstay of L4D2 weapons and it's always irritating when a bolt action AWP is in the place of what could have been the M16, AK47, or the semi-automatic sniper rifle. Something like the CSS knife feels out of place and the two new official weapons added are wonky at best with their hit detection. Screwing up the voice radial was extremely petty for VS and neutering it in coop was even dumber. Including many of the cut voicelines (Valve cut them in development for a reason) feel off or not in tone with the official lines.

But my biggest issue was how it broke a lot of custom plugins/campaigns. You're talking about a game that hasn't had a major update in about 8 years, so the community nestled in on the fact that the game will be consistently stable without any future incidents that might break mods. Every 4-6 weeks, a group I'm in plays a slew of custom campaigns we find on workshop/gamemaps on Expert on Saturday night. It's modified in a way that the more players in the game (we have around 16 at peak), the more special infected spawn, the larger the Tanks HP is, and the bigger the horde count is. Makes shit challenging regardless of player count. Plus everyone is given a medkit at spawnroom, and few other fun plugins like Character Select Menu (think Hank Hill, Moon Man, Carl from ATHF ect).

Well the update and its minor 'patches' since then fucked it up. The recent surprise big 'patch' for TLS (https://left4dead.fandom.com/wiki/Updates_(Left_4_Dead_2)#June_15.2C_2021_.282.2.1.3.29) caused most of the plugins to fail, again. We had to postpone our l4d2 event by a week, again. Thankfully, we are grateful we have somebody who knows how to code and patch up plugins (some are still not functioning properly), but that can't be said for other communities utilizing these old ass plugins that are no longer supported by the original authors. It's a pain in the ass if nothing else. Ultimately this is the core audience who still plays L4D2 to this day, not the people who jump on for a weekend after not playing it for 6-10 years.
Click to expand...

While I personally didn't mind the CSS weapons or the cut lines being added back in, I didn't care much for the voice radial being messed with. With VS, it felt like the devs were catering to people getting butthurt over people taunting them in a video game. And it also sucked that custom skins and voicelines didn't work on VS. anymore. What made VS. fun for me after a long time was listening to people bitch while I had SI spouting voice clips from IASIP or Spongebob while listening to Ocean Man during a Tank fight as hordes of Zoidbergs were swarming me. It all created this dissonance that put a dumb smile on my face.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

I played quite a bit during the past few days of the beta, and honestly... the core game is solid. There are legitimate complaints to be made, like the bullet sponge special infected, massively over the top spawn rates during hordes, ridiculous spikes between difficulty levels... but it's really nothing that can't be fixed. The guns feel a lot better than Left 4 Dead (somewhat similar to Killing Floor IMO). I have mixed feelings on the card system, but it does lead to more variety in campaign runs. The characters are a lot less colorful, but whatever. It's fine.

99% of the complaints here and elsewhere are that it's not a carbon copy of Left 4 Dead and therefore it sucks. You're not getting Left 4 Dead 3. Deal with it. Just approach as its own game.

 

[Judge Dredd]

99% of the complaints here and elsewhere are that it's not a carbon copy of Left 4 Dead and therefore it sucks. You're not getting Left 4 Dead 3. Deal with it. Just approach as its own game.

Normally, I'd agree. Especially since I remember people complaining about Left 4 Dead 2 being in a different part of the US. But B4B was sold on being the spiritual sequel to Left 4 Dead, not just another generic co-op zombie game.

In a post lost to the great rollback of 2021, I argued that the L4Ds are not the perfect games people claim. There's a lot of problems with the games, like melee weapons being basically the same, or how some of the events are broken to prevent exploits, but were never properly fixed.

There are lots of games of that type that either lack the magic of L4D, or don't have the player base to stay alive. Usually both. What does B4B offer that games like Earthfall, World War Z, and modded L4D2 don't?

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

Normally, I'd agree. Especially since I remember people complaining about Left 4 Dead 2 being in a different part of the US. But B4B was sold on being the spiritual sequel to Left 4 Dead, not just another generic co-op zombie game.

In a post lost to the great rollback of 2021, I argued that the L4Ds are not the perfect games people claim. There's a lot of problems with the games, like melee weapons being basically the same, or how some of the events are broken to prevent exploits, but were never properly fixed.

There are lots of games of that type that either lack the magic of L4D, or don't have the player base to stay alive. Usually both. What does B4B offer that games like Earthfall, World War Z, and modded L4D2 don't?

Can't say as I haven't really played those.

 

[NoonmanR]

99% of the complaints here and elsewhere are that it's not a carbon copy of Left 4 Dead and therefore it sucks. You're not getting Left 4 Dead 3. Deal with it. Just approach as its own game.

That happens when you tell people the studio that made Left 4 Dead is back to make Left 4 Dead and then title your game after Left 4 Dead so people who played Left 4 Dead get hyped because nobody remembers any of your other games EXCEPT Left 4 Dead.

Anyways, i mentioned this back before the reset even on it's own merits the problems, for me, weren't so much not being Left 4 Dead as it was just how bland the game was. Characters are boring and don't really banter, monsters are boring, weapons are decent enough but they way the game doles them out sucks, and thr levels kinda blend in together.

 

[Dom Cruise]

I hate that developers have been crewing up what should have been sure things recently, it should not have been that hard to make a spiritual successor to L4D, you literally already have a roadmap of what to do.

I can only assume the age of diversity hires not knowing what the fuck they're actually doing is to blame, I mean I could be wrong, but why the clear decline in talent as more and more people with dyed hair started showing up?

 

[armoreddinnerjacket]

anti-update rant

I do find irony in the fact that people demanded bug fixes for years, and when said fixes finally arrive they don't actually want them since broken mods and new issues are inevitable. Still haven't gotten a straight answer on the slew of mods supposedly broken by the updates, so I'm glad to see some concrete details on what's being affected.

 

[WULULULULU]

They had no choice. Apparently they made L4D2 to secure the IP after Turtle Rock split off.

TLS did a bunch of dumb shit nobody asked for. Some of it was based off a list of demands Valve made if they wanted to release the update in the first place. Updates don't always equal 'good' and what it added was superficial at most. There is an insane amount of custom campaigns out there of better quality than the 2 part campaign of The Last Stand. Just go to workshop and play a few yourself. Adding the CSS weapons officially - that were only accessible in unofficial servers or campaigns prior - was a stupid idea. Many of them aren't as solid as the mainstay of L4D2 weapons and it's always irritating when a bolt action AWP is in the place of what could have been the M16, AK47, or the semi-automatic sniper rifle. Something like the CSS knife feels out of place and the two new official weapons added are wonky at best with their hit detection. Screwing up the voice radial was extremely petty for VS and neutering it in coop was even dumber. Including many of the cut voicelines (Valve cut them in development for a reason) feel off or not in tone with the official lines.

But my biggest issue was how it broke a lot of custom plugins/campaigns. You're talking about a game that hasn't had a major update in about 8 years, so the community nestled in on the fact that the game will be consistently stable without any future incidents that might break mods. Every 4-6 weeks, a group I'm in plays a slew of custom campaigns we find on workshop/gamemaps on Expert on Saturday night. It's modified in a way that the more players in the game (we have around 16 at peak), the more special infected spawn, the larger the Tanks HP is, and the bigger the horde count is. Makes shit challenging regardless of player count. Plus everyone is given a medkit at spawnroom, and few other fun plugins like Character Select Menu (think Hank Hill, Moon Man, Carl from ATHF ect).

Well the update and its minor 'patches' since then fucked it up. The recent surprise big 'patch' for TLS (https://left4dead.fandom.com/wiki/Updates_(Left_4_Dead_2)#June_15.2C_2021_.282.2.1.3.29) caused most of the plugins to fail, again. We had to postpone our l4d2 event by a week, again. Thankfully, we are grateful we have somebody who knows how to code and patch up plugins (some are still not functioning properly), but that can't be said for other communities utilizing these old ass plugins that are no longer supported by the original authors. It's a pain in the ass if nothing else. Ultimately this is the core audience who still plays L4D2 to this day, not the people who jump on for a weekend after not playing it for 6-10 years.

Also, survivor bots feel like shit after TLS so yeah, thanks for breaking Survivor Bots dipshits.

I do find irony in the fact that people demanded bug fixes for years, and when said fixes finally arrive they don't actually want them since broken mods and new issues are inevitable. Still haven't gotten a straight answer on the slew of mods supposedly broken by the updates, so I'm glad to see some concrete details on what's being affected.

Gee, maybe if Valve did not just rush the sequel and make it a near carbon-copy version of the first game. Really though, if you want to foster a good game community, first communicate with them, and get rid of all the bugs and exploits since people will think "ermagherd X does not work" when in reality a game should not make a bug/exploit normal.

That's how you give birth to the shitty boomers of the world.

 

[armoreddinnerjacket]

Also, survivor bots feel like shit after TLS so yeah, thanks for breaking Survivor Bots dipshits.


Gee, maybe if Valve did not just rush the sequel and make it a near carbon-copy version of the first game. Really though, if you want to foster a good game community, first communicate with them, and get rid of all the bugs and exploits since people will think "ermagherd X does not work" when in reality a game should not make a bug/exploit normal.

That's how you give birth to the shitty boomers of the world.

Survivor bots weren't touched in TLS AFAIK. They've always been crap, hence the long-running AI mods.

FWIW the TLS team has become quite a bit more communicative over time, not that the haters care. Also got to remember that the bug lists they're working off of span back to the game's release. Just because no one remembers who asked for a certain change or fix doesn't mean it was pulled out of thin air.

 

[SlipNHonk]

I do find irony in the fact that people demanded bug fixes for years, and when said fixes finally arrive they don't actually want them since broken mods and new issues are inevitable. Still haven't gotten a straight answer on the slew of mods supposedly broken by the updates, so I'm glad to see some concrete details on what's being affected.

I never complained about demanding bug fixes myself, but perhaps Valve should actually fix their games themselves rather than relying on 'Do It Free' Jannies on the internet?

 

[armoreddinnerjacket]

I never complained about demanding bug fixes myself, but perhaps Valve should actually fix their games themselves rather than relying on 'Do It Free' Jannies on the internet?

I don't disagree in the least. Half of the issues with the TLS update wouldn't have existed if Valve had bloody funded the thing and provided the manpower to do it properly.

L4D2 isn't pulling in dosh, however, so it won't ever happen. I guess that's why I'm willing to take what we're getting. Beats a crowded mod list to accomplish the same thing.

 

[WULULULULU]

Survivor bots weren't touched in TLS AFAIK. They've always been crap, hence the long-running AI mods.

FWIW the TLS team has become quite a bit more communicative over time, not that the haters care. Also got to remember that the bug lists they're working off of span back to the game's release. Just because no one remembers who asked for a certain change or fix doesn't mean it was pulled out of thin air.

Wrong. Only 1 bot mod, Left 4 Bots is working. The bots now felt derpy compared to pre-TLS, its why CompetitiveBots and even Improved Bots are broken. Meanwhile Special Infected Bots are untounched and for some bizarre stupid reason, the mod team was just fucking incompetent. Someone was willing to rework the navs from scratch but JaiZ was a faggot and made most of the changes on the last minute.

This only reinforces that a.) Valve should have dedicated a full rework of L4D's (original) code and work all the content from there and b.) Community Updates will not save a game from shit.

 

[Liquid Marlon]

So WowSuchGaming made a video on the alpha a few days ago.

It talks about some of the improvements that were made along with some other stuff but it's mainly about the Vs. mode.

It's kind of amazing how he still tries to be optimistic even if the game sounds even worse than the beta before, it's weird that there are people calling him pessimistic but I guess I shouldn't be too surprised at that but still.

 

[armoreddinnerjacket]

Wrong. Only 1 bot mod, Left 4 Bots is working. The bots now felt derpy compared to pre-TLS, its why CompetitiveBots and even Improved Bots are broken.

I'll have to check the changelogs then, as I have yet to see what was changed that could affect Survivor bots. If we're going off of anecdotal evidence plenty of people remember the bots being just as bad pre-update.

Meanwhile Special Infected Bots are untounched and

Ironic, since some people have been convinced that SIs got harder after the update. It's one reason I refuse to believe something's been touched without hard evidence.

for some bizarre stupid reason, the mod team was just fucking incompetent. Someone was willing to rework the navs from scratch but JaiZ was a faggot and made most of the changes on the last minute.

Oh, I remember that drama quite well, and I asked about it a few months ago. Official answer is that what that guy was trying to do was good but outside the scope and budget of TLS. It can entirely be done, but only if Valve is willing to throw time and money at it. TLS was too big as it was, trying to rewrite a part of the game in the process probably would have been a disaster.

This only reinforces that a.) Valve should have dedicated a full rework of L4D's (original) code and work all the content from there and b.) Community Updates will not save a game from shit.

Which as I said before won't happen since L4D2 won't rake in enough dosh to justify it in Valve's eyes. The community updates were never about saving the game, but doing what should have been done years ago.

 

[Disco Inferno]

Bumping this post to see if other kiwis would be interested in playing multi-player when it comes out. I think it would make for a fun experience.

 

[SlipNHonk]

Not going to lie. I honestly forgot this game existed for a brief two or so weeks. I wouldn't bother. It's probably going to bomb hard in sales.