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MetalParakeet said:
I see what you mean with the hands and stature but damn. I hate to say it but that's probably the best passing FTM I've seen in awhile, especially from someone who wasn't bad looking to begin with.

I don't know much about them so I have to wonder wtf happened to send them on that route. Seems to have been a cheerleader, middle to upper middle class average white chick before they went all trans nazi
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If she were darker, she would be indistinguishable from mexican male.
 
Dyn said:
I think if the world treats you like a woman, you're a woman (and vice versa for men). De Beauvoir said that women are not born, but made, and I tend to agree with her.
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going by that logic a fucking robot would qualify as a woman if it looks and sounds realistic enough to fool enough random people into mistaking it for one lol

de beauvoir was a simply a brainless lunatic tbh, as expected from someone who hangs out with the likes of sartre
 
I've seen some hype around an artist called Sewerslvt lately. I was like, ah cool, a woman making experimental music! It was a fucking troon.

One of the, ahem, worse troons too.

"She" goes by Jvnko. Named after Junko Furuta. If you don't know who that is, don't look it up. Junko was a Japanese schoolgirl who was tortured to death for 40 days. She was raped and tortured until she died.

Anyway, isn't that fucking disgusting? Going by the name of a dead little girl?

Well, it gets worse.

"She" has used loli porn as "album art". One of them was of Lain Iwakura, giving a blowjob. Lain is 14. and very obviously 14. In the series she's in, she's flat chested, small, has a childlike voice, has stuffed animals, and wears a teddy bear onesie on occasion. Disgusting.

But perhaps the WORST PART, is the following.

MASSIVE FUCKING TRIGGER WARNING!!! DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE NOT A FAN OF GORE AND/OR PEDOPHILIA

"She " has an EP named Child Sacrifice. The album cover is (or rather was, I believe it was changed) a dead person from the waist up, head bloody and gored. Obfuscated by glitch effects or some crap. But still obvious.

...But the person is a NAKED, YOUNG LITTLE GIRL. A REAL, HUMAN LITTLE GIRL. SOMEONE'S DAUGHTER. A FUCKING KID! It had to have been a little girl because this creep obviously is obsessed with young girls. It showed her chest and that's how I could tell. She was, at most, 6 years old or something.

I can see how some people could forgive the loli crap because it's not real. However, juxtaposed with such a pseudonym and a god damn dead naked little girl, and lyrics about gore and whatnot (I'm assuming, her. music is garbage and I will not listen to it), it's kinda fucked.

Also has a small history of racism, using "N*ggerz" as an EP name. That's not my shit to comment on though. "Her" fans will defend "her" tooth and nail saying she's changed and whatnot, but like the naked child shit is unforgivable, IMO.

Also, sorry if this is low quality, haven't posted here before. Somehow got permabanned from lolcow and this is my last resort. I'm just kinda pissed off lol.
 
Dyn said:
The thing is, very few trannies are ever really treated like women (or men). They're treated like trannies. Caitlyn Jenner certainly isn't held to female standards, she's held to tranny standards. Buck Angel isn't held to male standards, he's held to tranny standards. These people haven't transitioned to the opposite sex, and never will, because despite all the platitudes and validation society might give them, we still treat them as tranny freaks or stunning and brave transfolx instead of just some ordinary lady and an ordinary dude.
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You know ehat they say, you can't judge a woman until you've walked a mile in her size 17 Jimmy Choos.
 
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poggers said:
Have to hard disagree. Maybe its just definitions... but I don't like the distinction between female/woman, that you can be one but not the other, to me they've always meant the same thing.
Anyways, a lot of MTFs claim to be female as well, once you grant them one word they go further.
I believe biology trumps socialization in most things. How can someone born male with a dick and balls and no uterus or ovaries or periods or breasts or menopause ever be a woman in every aspect of life?
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If we treated men and women entirely equally, held them to the same standards and judged them on the same metrics, aside from a few biological details like sex and periods and pissing standing up, I'd agree. But we don't, and probably never will. I don't think there's any behavioural, pharmalogical or surgical way to change from a male into a female, but as long as society has distinct ideas of what men and women are and should be, and completely different metrics and standards for judging them as human beings, there is an immense gulf between men and women beyond the purely biological. You can argue it's just definitions, because it is. Plenty of people refuse to define 'woman' as anything but 'adult human female', and that's fine, but it leaves a void in our language that adequately expresses the massive sociological difference between men and women.

We use adjectives like 'manly' and 'womanly' for a reason, and they rarely have anything to do with pattern balding or bleeding out the vagina once a month.
 

DumbDude42 said:
going by that logic a fucking robot would qualify as a woman if it looks and sounds realistic enough to fool enough random people into mistaking it for one lol

de beauvoir was a simply a brainless lunatic tbh, as expected from someone who hangs out with the likes of sartre
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People take that quote out of context. She meant females are socialized into womanhood. She uses an example of a male relative making fun of a girl having her period, making her feel shame. So, she is definitely not talking about a male presenting as female.
 
Dyn said:
If we treated men and women entirely equally, held them to the same standards and judged them on the same metrics, aside from a few biological details like sex and periods and pissing standing up, I'd agree. But we don't, and probably never will. I don't think there's any behavioural, pharmalogical or surgical way to change from a male into a female, but as long as society has distinct ideas of what men and women are and should be, and completely different metrics and standards for judging them as human beings, there is an immense gulf between men and women beyond the purely biological. You can argue it's just definitions, because it is. Plenty of people refuse to define 'woman' as anything but 'adult human female', and that's fine, but it leaves a void in our language that adequately expresses the massive sociological difference between men and women.

We use adjectives like 'manly' and 'womanly' for a reason, and they rarely have anything to do with pattern balding or bleeding out the vagina once a month.
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Holy FUCK, Dyn is being reasonable and making sense. Can someone call a welfare check on him?
 
Dyn said:
If we treated men and women entirely equally, held them to the same standards and judged them on the same metrics, aside from a few biological details like sex and periods and pissing standing up, I'd agree. But we don't, and probably never will. I don't think there's any behavioural, pharmalogical or surgical way to change from a male into a female, but as long as society has distinct ideas of what men and women are and should be, and completely different metrics and standards for judging them as human beings, there is an immense gulf between men and women beyond the purely biological. You can argue it's just definitions, because it is. Plenty of people refuse to define 'woman' as anything but 'adult human female', and that's fine, but it leaves a void in our language that adequately expresses the massive sociological difference between men and women.

We use adjectives like 'manly' and 'womanly' for a reason, and they rarely have anything to do with pattern balding or bleeding out the vagina once a month.
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I mean, that was where "gender" as a concept was supposed to come in. Gender is all of the sociological aspects attached to our species' biological sex. They are inexorably linked.
 
Kurze Katze said:
I mean, that was where "gender" as a concept was supposed to come in. Gender is all of the sociological aspects attached to our species' biological sex. They are inexorably linked.
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Yeah but lots of what troons and old people have in common is that they insist on gender ideas that are NOT biological. For example, girls liking pink and boys liking blue. That’s just made-up rubbish.

That’s far from recognising that little boys act differently from little girls on average, for example little boys seem more willing to take physical risks, while little girls seem more willing to take social risks.

EDIT: cheers newfag who is probably someone’s sock: tretyakovskaya156.52203/
 
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Dyn said:
If we treated men and women entirely equally, held them to the same standards and judged them on the same metrics, aside from a few biological details like sex and periods and pissing standing up, I'd agree. But we don't, and probably never will. I don't think there's any behavioural, pharmalogical or surgical way to change from a male into a female, but as long as society has distinct ideas of what men and women are and should be, and completely different metrics and standards for judging them as human beings, there is an immense gulf between men and women beyond the purely biological. You can argue it's just definitions, because it is. Plenty of people refuse to define 'woman' as anything but 'adult human female', and that's fine, but it leaves a void in our language that adequately expresses the massive sociological difference between men and women.

We use adjectives like 'manly' and 'womanly' for a reason, and they rarely have anything to do with pattern balding or bleeding out the vagina once a month.
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Is that not just feminine and masculine, which would attribute themselves to stereotypes based on biology? Socialisation is a hell of a drug, and you can see how growing up around a group would make you more like them. There could also be the distinction between heterosexual/homosexual females and males and how they present themselves to attract others. That would then group butch 'masculine' lesbian women with straight 'masculine' men, which makes sense only in the context of presentation and who they want to get with. There is no need to create legislation which replaces sex with such a thing.
 
Dyn said:
it leaves a void in our language that adequately expresses the massive sociological difference between men and women.
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Masculine and feminine are the sociological terms. This is what gender originally meant, before it became a euphemism to avoid the word 'sex'. In humans, man is to male what ram is to male among sheep; this is sex.

The fact that we refer to transitioned people as their target sex is a vestige of the days when transition was openly regarded as a solution to homosexuality. Most regressive. From a linguistic and socio standpoint, it would be far more correct to use transmasculine and transfeminine - more descriptive, easily understood to the layperson, and less proscriptive of gender conformity since it doesn't focus on achieving the impossible literal sex change.

ETA: Example. It would likely be psychologically beneficial for this kid to have a looser, more subjective term for what they are trying to achieve with transition. It would also be nice for women to be allowed to be defined outside of sociological function. [Archive] eg.png
 
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mythirdfuckingaccount said:
Is that not just feminine and masculine, which would attribute themselves to stereotypes based on biology?
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Swerf'n'Terf said:
Masculine and feminine are the sociological terms. This is what gender originally meant, before it became a euphemism to avoid the word 'sex'. In humans, man is to male what ram is to male among sheep; this is sex.
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No, this doesn't quite work. Masculine and feminine are scaleable adjectives, but man and woman are binary nouns.

No matter how 'masculine' a combat-booted bulldyke presents, we recognise her as a woman and we judge her as a woman. A lot of people might judge her as failed women, or unnatural women, but they still recognise that she's a women. Even if she's a hundred times more masculine than the effeminate man standing next to her, we still very clearly see a masculine woman and a feminine man, and we judge them accordingly.

You can be seen as any level of 'masculine' or 'feminine', regardless of your sex, but you either are, or you are not seen as a man or a woman. If a XX female presents so perfectly as male that the world around her doesn't know she's trans, and just sees her as a man, and treats her as a man, and behaves around her as if she's a man, then how can we really call her sociologically feminine or female, when she's liberated of all the social responsibilities and expectations of womanhood but burdened with all the social responsibilities and expectations of manhood? She will always be female, but regardless of her chromosomes or vagina, she's become a man, even if the English language lacks universally agreed-on words to recognise that.
 
The pozzed Human Rights Campaign stirred up a small swarm of TERFs with one of their tweets on feminism, lol.

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https://twitter.com/HRC/status/1378059779491430402 [archive]
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The article [x] they linked to is called "5 Things to Know to Make Your Feminism Trans-Inclusive".

In brief, the "5 Things" are:
  1. Trans women are women.
  2. Transphobia is offensive and harmful.
  3. To be trans-inclusive is to be intersectional.
  4. Trans women are feminist leaders.
  5. Centering the most marginalized is key.
My translation of each point/section in the article:
  1. Say the mantra, bigot! There are no differences between transwomen and real women.
  2. To be a good feminist, you must oppose transphobic bathroom bills, anti-trans sports bills, etc.
  3. Always remember that Black troons are the most special. If you're transphobic, you are probably also a racist.
  4. Sit down and shut up. Troons must be the leaders of any feminist initiative, especially Black troons!
  5. Only the issues faced by Black troons matter, since they are the most oppressed. Once these issues are resolved, all other feminist issues will magically vanish as a result.
I wonder why this article was so unpopular... :thinking:
 
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twee said:
I've seen some hype around an artist called Sewerslvt lately. I was like, ah cool, a woman making experimental music! It was a fucking troon.
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I fucking called it. The japanese name, the fact no biological women call themselves sluts without getting paid to do it, the anime shit. The main thing that set me off was a blurb they wrote about how mostly men make noise music, but they're not cause they're a woman teehee! Sucks cause I like some of their songs, but tranny pedos gonna be tranny pedos.
 
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And a man is just an adult human male.

Almost all gender related shit is either completely and utterly unnecessary (i.e. dresses are female, when it's normal for men to wear them in some cultures) or it originated in biology (i.e. men being more aggressive) and is thus more sex related.

No trans person will ever fully live their as the opposite sex. At best they can mimic it through stereotypes and gender nonsense. But the biological aspects that truly define men and women won't change.

And the idea that "the outside world" sees them as the gender they want to be is also nonsense. A men that goes into a relationship with an MtF will always have to remember he won't get his "girlfriend" pregnant. And he also needs to either be okay with fucking a male body, or fuck a rotting puss filled hole.

And vice versa with FtMs, arguably they tend to pass a bit better but with the myriad of health issues that come with transitioning (i.e. going through menopause after a hysterectomy) both their friends, their family and they themselves will always know that she's a women.

And in both of those cases you already have to assume they even fully pass, which not even contrapoints or blaire white can, when seen in candid images.

They can never get to the point where they'll be indistinguishable from their target gender and they will always know that in the back of their head as they chase a dragon they can never reach (due to obvious biological reasons) and there will never be a point that society or the people around them can completely act as if they are their target gender, because they aren't and will never be. And no amount of makeup or calling others "bro" will change that.
 
Dyn said:
No, this doesn't quite work. Masculine and feminine are scaleable adjectives, but man and woman are binary nouns.

No matter how 'masculine' a combat-booted bulldyke presents, we recognise her as a woman and we judge her as a woman. A lot of people might judge her as failed women, or unnatural women, but they still recognise that she's a women. Even if she's a hundred times more masculine than the effeminate man standing next to her, we still very clearly see a masculine woman and a feminine man, and we judge them accordingly.

You can be seen as any level of 'masculine' or 'feminine', regardless of your sex, but you either are, or you are not seen as a man or a woman. If a XX female presents so perfectly as male that the world around her doesn't know she's trans, and just sees her as a man, and treats her as a man, and behaves around her as if she's a man, then how can we really call her sociologically feminine or female, when she's liberated of all the social responsibilities and expectations of womanhood but burdened with all the social responsibilities and expectations of manhood? She will always be female, but regardless of her chromosomes or vagina, she's become a man, even if the English language lacks universally agreed-on words to recognise that.
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Transmasculine and transfeminine are binary adjectives though. It works just fine for me, though I can accept there are trans people who may object to being defined by their birth sex.

Your hypothetical is quite limited, because it applies to the perfectly passing only. In truth, as in your examples, trans people fall either between men and women on a continuum, or outside it altogether depending on interpretation.

I don't think we'll ever agree, because I don't believe that man and woman are purely sociological terms defined by ability to mimic. At the end of the day transitioning produces at best a facsimile, and there needs to be some distinction in language between the thing itself and the image of the thing. Otherwise, that too leaves a void.

ETA: eg from NYT: https://kiwifarms.net/threads/how-do-i-define-my-gender-if-no-one-is-watching-me.87981/
 
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I don't know when r/itsafetish was banned, but the last time I checked reddit for it it went private. I decided to browse r/transgender_surgeries for content and now regret it immensely.
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"Is there any girl here who are into this kind of activity and can advice me ?"
Imagine being a twink and thinking taking dragon dildos up the ass is a pastime of biological women, and not something that will soon end with his anus prolapsed and his intestines slithered outside of his body like a snake, maybe that could be his new fursona.


 
Dyn said:
No, this doesn't quite work. Masculine and feminine are scaleable adjectives, but man and woman are binary nouns.

No matter how 'masculine' a combat-booted bulldyke presents, we recognise her as a woman and we judge her as a woman. A lot of people might judge her as failed women, or unnatural women, but they still recognise that she's a women. Even if she's a hundred times more masculine than the effeminate man standing next to her, we still very clearly see a masculine woman and a feminine man, and we judge them accordingly.

You can be seen as any level of 'masculine' or 'feminine', regardless of your sex, but you either are, or you are not seen as a man or a woman. If a XX female presents so perfectly as male that the world around her doesn't know she's trans, and just sees her as a man, and treats her as a man, and behaves around her as if she's a man, then how can we really call her sociologically feminine or female, when she's liberated of all the social responsibilities and expectations of womanhood but burdened with all the social responsibilities and expectations of manhood? She will always be female, but regardless of her chromosomes or vagina, she's become a man, even if the English language lacks universally agreed-on words to recognise that.
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I agreed with you up until the end. The way people are treated is always changing, just as the social roles for females and males are. In the case you gave, man and woman would then not be binary nouns, because someone could present as neither female nor male, which is why we ask for their sex. And if this androgynous person lies about their sex and we revert to thinking in the binary woman/man, they are still only socially grouped in with that sex, which is a grouping with constantly changing definitions and limitations.
If a woman who looked completely like a man announced she was female, I would still treat her the same aside from when sex matters - this includes not only healthcare and changing rooms, but also whether I let my guard down or discuss female-only matters. This is the issue with gender I was trying to pinpoint. You can always try grouping them in socially, but those social boundaries are always changing. You can say that you may as well group them in because everyone perceives them to be as such, but that form of grouping then becomes arbitrary and not relevant to legislation surrounding sex.
I agree that the English language is lacking and that there is not much harm in coming up with extra descriptors, but woman and man are terms which are already taken. These people need to find their own words, because she would still be an extremely masculine Adult Human Female.

Edit - I also just scrolled up and saw the post about anal insertion by a twansgrill called Yiff-something. There is no way in fuck I'm socially grouped in with that autist.
 
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